Thread: mopar w8 motor
View Single Post
 
Old 11-15-2003, 02:38 AM
W8Dart375 W8Dart375 is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: State College, PA
Posts: 47
Sanborn seems to have his Stuff together when it coms to exotic smallblocks, I'm impressed. Rarely do I meet/see someone with as much knowledge on the subject as he seems to have.

I'm the aforementioned "W8416" from moparts.com Actually I'm W8Dart371 over there. (I switched bores recently, so now the motor is a 375" LOL)

I'm the chief cylinder head porter at Shady Dell Speed Shop www.shadydellspeedshop.com We are a small shop that does Small Block Mopars exclusively, and specializes in SB Mopar cylinder head porting.

As for W8 motors, sanborn has answered many of your questions. The bare W8's that Domino1609@aol.com (Rick Liuzzo) has for sale all the time on ebay etc, are BARE W8's, no seats/guides etc. (I've purchased parts from Rick before, he seems to be a good guy, and has alot of the "normal" exotic NASCAR W8 stuff laying around) Anyhow, They W8's he has are the only ones now sold by MP. They were designed for one purpose and one purpose only, NASCAR Craftsman Truck competition. Then when NHRA came out with the Pro Stock Truck category, the W8 was chosen as the cylinder head platform of choice for the initial Pro Stock Truck 358" motors. Later on, the P5 head was designed to be the W8 Pro Stock head successor. Anyhow, don't be fooled by a low price on a bare set of W8's. I have a source who has an entire ROOM full of them who will sell you as many as you want for $600 a pair. The problem lies in the $ you have to spend to get them into an operational state. W8 heads HAVE to be CNC ported. I'm about as crazy as they get for hard core SB Mopar head porting, and even I'm not crazy enough to try to hand port W8's. So, you only have a few options for CNC programs. If you have connections, Arrington Racing Engines has several NASCAR CNC programs and MIGHT do a special order set if you know the right people. M2 supposedly has a decent W8 CNC program, and last I heard it's ~$2200 to do a pair. And lastly you have Chapman. You can contact them directly for a price quote. They have several nice CNC programs for the W8, including some drag programs. They will be in the $2500+ neighborhood. Don't forget, that is just for the porting. You also have to have the seat steps cut and seats/guides installed, and the heads have to be milled yet. If you want berrylium seats, The exhaust are $17 each from Del West and the intakes $22 each. (Don't ask me how I know LOL) But, for drag racing, iron seats would be fine. The guides are no big deal to get, unless you want 7mm and then, you better kiss some butt at CV products to locate a set (again, don't ask how I know LOL) Anyhow, Basically expect to have at least $4K in a new BARE set of W8's ready to run. MOST guys just buy them used, as there are quite a few sets floating aorund. Alot of ex NASCAR heads, and some Pro Stock heads. Keep in mind that the majority of the Ex NASCAR stuff have slightly smaller ports than the Pro Stock W8's. As far as flow goes, I have a set of W8's, and I have two friends who also each have a set. I had one of my buddies sets on my flowbench and they went 396 cfm @.800". His were an older generation Arrington CNC port, 2.16" Del West 7MM valve. His exhaust went in the 265 range with no flow tube. 1.625" Del West 5/16" stem valve. His heads are used. Mine are brand new, last generation Arrington CNC program, right before the switch to the P7 head in Craftsman Truck. I hav'nt gotten to flow mine yet, as I just got the seats and guides installed. And have not done the valve job yet. We are using Del West 7 mm valves with a 50* seat, and that causes headaches when trying to locate a 50* seat cutter. The 50* seat is designed to increase peak flow #'s, while sacrificing some low lift flow. I am expecting my heads to be in the 400-410 cfm range with the newer Arrington CNC program. Keep in mind these are LARGE runners and bowls, ~265 cc's

Anyhow, my heads are going on the following combo:

R1 48* Race block. 9" deck, Lifter bores cut for keyway Jesels. 4 bolt billet main caps. Full lightening program. The block is a used Craftsman Truck block, all machine work done by Arrington Racing Engines. 50 mm roller cam bearings. This block was originally designed for dry sump oiling. I am going to run internal oiling (Don't ask how, LONG story)

Crank is 3.51" MP Forged, Rod journals cut to 2.100", Aerodynamically shaped and lightened.

Rods are GRP Billet Alum. 6" GM, 465 grams

Pistons are JE Flat tops, 15* valve reliefs (oh yes, all W7/8/9 are 15* except some VERY early W7 which was still 18* and some VERY late W8 Pro Stock Heads that were 13*)
Pistons are being lightened as we speak by DMI in Montana.
4.125" bore X 3.51" Stroke = 375"
JE Tool Steel Pins...

Oil Pan is Steffs Aluminum S/S pan

Webber 9" Deck Belt Drive (Try locating one of those sometime

)

ATI 3.75 lb Aluminum Damper, MSD Crank Trigger

Mallory Billet Dist.

Custom Ground 50 MM Bilelt Roller by Comp Cams, ~ .765" 290@ .050"

Keyway Jesel Roller Lifters

Jesel Pushrods

Heads, you know about. ISKY Tool Room Springs, Manley Super 7* ti. retainers and locks. The Rockers are Jesel 1.7:1 with every lightening option and upgrade available, dovetailed, shot peened, tool steel adjusters. rivited roller etc. The Rocker bars are custom Jesel, "Arrington Spec" Modified "W117" Jesel Bars.

Valve Covers are MP Magnesium, and the Dodge Magnum logo is being milled off and a custom logo CNC'd in by DMI.

Intake is a CFE Shetmetal Tunnel Ram off of the old Sox & Martin Pro Stock Truck. Also I got the twin 750 Pro Stock Dominators along with it.

That's the basic engine......... Hoping to have it together and on the dyno in February. Should make somewhere between 800-840 HP on gasoline. Compression is 14.3:1

As for my friends W8 motors, one is going to be a 3.33" stroke x 4.185" bore and the other 3.25" X 4.185" Both with used Arrington NASCAR CNC W8's. One will have sheetmetal T-ram and the other a single 4 on a cast intake. Similar builds to mine except they are running steel Carrillo rods, and NASCAR cams, also they are both using 60MM cam R3 blocks. Both 9" deck. All 3 are designed to be drag engines.

Another friend just finished up a 374" W7 motor, and I'm hoping to see it on the dyno by the end of the month. It is a pump gas Street./Strip engine that MAY hit 700 HP. Let's keep our fingers crossed
It has Chapman CNC W7's, Single 4 cast intake, 1050 Dominator, ~12:1, 50 MM roller cam, 9" deck, 6" Howard's Billet Rods, Custom JE's etc etc.

I'm currently porting a set of W9's for a guy in Michigan. His plans are a tall deck 9.56" large stroke (3.79") Drag Motor. I'm porting his single 4 cast intake as well. The W9's are a BEAUTIFUL head. $467 each bare, dealer cost. Last I saw there were 29 left in the warehouse in MI. That is the 11/32" guide version. These come with uncut blank iron seats and 11/32" guides. MP also makes a 3/8" guide version for some unGodly reason. Anyhow, This set I'm porting are getting 2.15"/1.625" Del Wests. I'm at ~365-370 cfm with them right now. The rest of the flow is in the bowl, and how large you want to go. His bowls now are substantially smaller than something like my W8 bowl. And basically I'm undecided if I want to push these heads to that type of level. But anyhow, 365-370 cfm is fairly easy to obtain by hand porting W9's, that last 20-30 cfm IS there, but you btter know what you are doing before going looking for it.

The W9 is the way to go for $ reasons. No CNC porting required, and already come with seats and Guides. Also the rockers can be had relatively cheaply if you know who to go through to get them. That Mopar Muscle 340" W9 buildup article had ALOT of inaccuracies in it. I wrote a dissertation over on moparts.com after it came out pointing out all the errors. It just kind of rubbed me the wrong way because to the uninitiated who read it, they would come away thinking W9 motors are highly exotic and a complete PITA to build. (Which is'nt entirely true) It just requires HOMEWORK as was mentioned before. If you know what you are doing, the problems for the most part don't exist. BTW: Valley trays DO EXIST How many do you want? LOL Also 9.56" deck W7/8/9 Single 4 cast intakes DO EXIST. I've had them in my hands. That intake they used in the article was a damn 9" deck intake, as indicated by the part # on the runners in the one pic they had, yet they claimed it was supposed to be a 9.20" deck unit. And they wondered why they had to make spacers for it...... Oh well. Before anyone goes and tries to build something like that, they should consult someone "in the know". All they would have had to do was pick up a phone and call Tim Davis, and he could have eliminated alot of their "headaches"

OH and can you put a W8/9 on a 59* block? YES. I have pics of a W9 on a 59* Magnum motor that is being designed by a MP engineer right now. Look for a Magnum block with W9's and a Hydraulic Roller to be released in the future as a MP crate engine. It's being marketed as a dirt track engine.


As for W5 heads.............................. My favorite subject LOL. I was just porting a set today for a drag racer in Mexico, this set id going on a 418" motor that currently has B1-BA's. W5's are a whole another world in themselves. There were at least 3 different foundries that cast them, and at least 4 different production runs. Some are JUNK, some are excellent heads. IMO they are the best 59* heads ever produced. When fully ported by the right shop, ( We do a pretty good job, Brandywine Cylinder Heads also is an excellent W5 head shop) They will outflow a full ported INDY 360-1R, a Batten Head, B1-BA, and whatever else you want to throw at them. But just like the W8/9 stuff, you need to familiarize yourself with their "quirks" before jumping off the deep end. W5's are no longer produced, so to buy a set you have to find them in private ownership. I know where there are a few stashed away right now. In todays market they are bringing $1K a pair bare. Just the basics: They use W2/5 race rocker arm setups, 5.28" long valves, can accept up to a 2.10" intake valve, use a special W5 intake manifold (although the INDY 360-3 intake can be made to work) and W5 headers. And again, depending on brand/chassis some W2 headers can be made to work. The W5 has the exhaust port raised .800" from Stock/W2 location. Other notes would be: the valve guides are all 3/8" from MP,and they have a very WEIRD OD on them, making finding replacement 11/32" etc guides a little tougher than normal. I have the CV products part #'s here if anyone needs them. Often times the middle rocker bolt hole is drilled right into the water jacket so watch out there. Also whatever you do make SURE you have them pressure tested before use. W5's are porous and often water will "weep" through the aluminum particularly on the short turn corners of the intake after porting. There is a SMALL water jacket that runs at a weird angle under the short turn that causes this problem. I have had a cutaway W5 in my hands and have seen the water passage. Just a stupid place and angle to run it. There is the main water passage under the short turn, and then this one little seperate one that angles off.... Also the seats will sometimes leak right out of the box. You just have to be vigilant with them, they are not for everyone. But if you want to go FAST with a 59* motor, particularly under 400 CID, they are THE head to run. OH also..... They flow TERRIBLE as cast. The exhaust ports are cast very small. The last set I tested peaked 158 cfm out of the box on the exhaust side. They were 240 when ported We usually see low 320's for a peak on the intake, but the low/Mid are so much stronger than anything else. I have had one go as high as 302 @ .500"!!!!! I "gauge" cylinder head flow by how good they flow at .500" of lift. The typical max port W2 will be 274-278 on my bench. So comapre that to the 302 above W5's are generally 294-298 @ .500" That 302 was just kind of an anomalie. Also we now offer a W5 conversion head, called the "W6", it is a custom labor intenive job, but it is providing huge flow #'s from the W5. (227 @ .300", 314 @ .500", 346 @ .700") The best part is, that the runner valume is only 5 cc's more than a full port standard W5. (223 vs 218)

ANYHOW..... If anyone has any questions pertaining to Small Block Chrysler cylinder heads or SB Mopar race engines in general or just want to "shoot the bull" Please feel free to email me anytime at rej111@psu.edu

Ryan J.
Reply With Quote