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  #1  
Old 09-21-2006, 06:55 PM
runnerdude runnerdude is offline
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Question kickdown linkage adjustment help

hey guys, I have a 1969 Roadrunner with a 440 which i have had and driven for years. I just recently switched my carb and manifold from a stock/TQ combo to a holley/performer rpm one. now I am not getting 3rd gear under normal driving conditions.( did manage to get it into 3rd on the highway after punching it a couple times) I know that it is not a tranny problem, just a linkage adjustment is needed, but It has been so long since i had to touch this that i dont remember how.I know most of you guys are gonna tell me to get the lokar cable system, but i know my linkage works, i just dont remember the theory behind the adjustment, ( where do i set it for WOT etc) and all the posts on this subject just say to adjust it but not how. I just need to knowthe basics on this adjustment. Thanks in advance guys.
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  #2  
Old 09-21-2006, 09:09 PM
peg leg peg leg is offline
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Default Sounds like...

You might have the downshift control rod adjusted way too deep. Can you get WOT (engine off ) with the rod on the carb linkage? If not, it is adjusted too far back on the carb linkage. Where does it shift into second with normal light throttle driving? It should shift 1-2 at about 15-20 mph. Sounds like the new setup placed the carb linkage back farther.

Ron
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  #3  
Old 09-21-2006, 10:12 PM
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dwc43 dwc43 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runnerdude
hey guys, I have a 1969 Roadrunner with a 440 which i have had and driven for years. I just recently switched my carb and manifold from a stock/TQ combo to a holley/performer rpm one. now I am not getting 3rd gear under normal driving conditions.( did manage to get it into 3rd on the highway after punching it a couple times) I know that it is not a tranny problem, just a linkage adjustment is needed, but It has been so long since i had to touch this that i dont remember how.I know most of you guys are gonna tell me to get the lokar cable system, but i know my linkage works, i just dont remember the theory behind the adjustment, ( where do i set it for WOT etc) and all the posts on this subject just say to adjust it but not how. I just need to knowthe basics on this adjustment. Thanks in advance guys.
Any service manual will tell you to back the idle off til the throttle blades are closed and then set the arm on the tranny full forward. Return your cab to stock idle. You may have to fine tune it a little after that.
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  #4  
Old 09-22-2006, 03:58 AM
mhenesian mhenesian is offline
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Default No third gear on Torqueflight

Hi Runnerdude,

The kickdown linkage at the carb throttle arm moves the kickdown valve in the torqueflight valvebody thru the mechanical linkage to the "throttle lever" at the side of the tranny case. This controls the fluid pressure in the so called "throttle" pressure circuit which controls the upshift points in concert with the governor mechanism that spins around on the output shaft.

When you go to full throttle (or close to it), the kickdown valve moves the throttle valve which "kicks down" the tranny to a lower gear. I think if the kickdown valve or throttle value are sticking/stuck in the valvebody, you won't get an upshift to third gear. The tranny will hold in second. A burned up front clutch pack or stuck kickdown band will also prevent third gear.

Air bubbles in the tranny fluid and air in the torque converter can also cause this condition and other bad symptoms. I've had this happen in both TH350 and MOPAR trannys after changing the fluid and flushing the converter. (It took about 2 miles of slow driving in first gear to finally get the Pontiac to shift at all ! Dad you broke my car ! Then I was so smart I repeated the failed flushing method in the Roadrunner. Now I was really paniced, no first gear at all until warmed up for about 30 minutes).

According to the MOPAR shop manual, a NO UPSHIFT condition could be cause by one or more of the following:

1.) low fluid level
2.) incorrect throttle linkage adjustment
3.) kickdown band out of adjustment
4.) hydraulic pressures too high or low
5.) governor weights sticking or governor pressure leak
6.) valve body malfunction/sticking valves/cracked, etc.
7.) clutches not operating/servos sticking
8.) faulty tranny oil pump
9.) kickdown servo, band, or linkage arm malfunction/broken
10.) burned front clutch pack, front clutch piston seal leak
11.) worn or broken input shaft reaction support seal rings

Well this just about covers every malfunction - doesn't it !

As a test - disconnect the kickdown linkage from your new Holley carb. The kickdown lever "pivot" mechanism at the back of the manifold on the drivers side should be fully forward. Check tranny fluid level with the engine running and tranny in neutral. Add fluid if necessary. Drive the car at "light" throttle. If the problem is #2 above, your tranny should shift into third at a low speed (15~ 25 mph) when starting from a complete (not rolling stop). If it still hangs, I think you may have bigger problems.

If you got the upshift into both second and third, then you can try to adjust the thottle linkage. Here's the "at the track" way. With the linkage still disconnected at the carb, engine off, move the lever mechanism by hand, rotating it all the way back. This is FULL kickdown. Reconnect the linkage at the throttle (the slotted end and the spring). With the carb opened to full throttle, the kickdown lever mechanism should be almost, but not all the way back. Try for about 1/8" of slack. Rotate the slotted end of the linkage at the throttle lever "post/pin" until you can get the desired slack at full throttle. Reconnect the slotted end of the linkage at the carb and the long kickdown spring. This takes a little practice.

This is a good "street" adjustment and will give you "kickdown" at 3/4 to full throttle, and decent upshift points for second and third. No slack gives you kickdown at ~1/2 throttle or less, and late upshifts out of first and second.

For drag racing you need more slack than a "street" adjustment, otherwise you lose manual control of the upshift points. With no slack (i.e. full kickdown pressure) the tranny will "hang" at the top of each gear at full throttle, until the rev limiter kicks in. The power drop will force the tranny to upshift.

The kickdown adjustment depends somewhat on the basic transmission line pressure, which is set by tightening or loosening the pressure relief valve spring on the side to the valve body. Higher than factory line pressure will make the kickdown adjustment more tricky, but can firm up the shifts,

Good luck,
Mark H.

(See the other posts too)
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  #5  
Old 09-22-2006, 04:37 PM
John Kunkel John Kunkel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwc43
Any service manual will tell you to back the idle off til the throttle blades are closed and then set the arm on the tranny full forward.
Wrong as usual, the FSM specifies that the adjustment be made at warm curb idle which means with the normal warm idle stop position.

If the correct Mopar throttle lever extension isn't used with an aftermarket carb the linkage ratio will be incorrect.

Failure to upshift to 3rd means that the transmission lever is too far back for the throttle setting. Shorten the top rod to bring the lever forward.
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  #6  
Old 09-22-2006, 06:33 PM
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dwc43 dwc43 is offline
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Biggrin

No, John it's absolutely corect and by the service manual as I stated. Go read one some time.
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  #7  
Old 09-22-2006, 11:57 PM
72Challenger 72Challenger is offline
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Direct quote from the factory service manual:

"Disconnect choke at carburetor or block choke valve in full open position. Open throttle slightly to release fast idle cam, then return carburetor to curb idle."

I see nothing in there about closing the blades completely, adjusting, and then setting idle. You set idle first, and then leave it alone. What service manual did you get your instructions from? Mine is the Dodge Passenger Car 1972 Chassis Service Manual, published by the Chrysler Corporation.
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  #8  
Old 09-23-2006, 03:58 AM
mhenesian mhenesian is offline
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Default

Hi All,

The Mopar shop manual method is not fool proof ! Particularly with non-stock throttle linkage/carb or a modified valve body. Use my "at the track" method. It works every time since it's based on how the kickdown valve actually works. I swap carbs, manifolds, spacers frequently. I need a method that works and gives consistent results.

With a tall manifold and/or spacer one needs to go to Orchard Supply and get some 1/4-28 threaded rod and 1/4-28 threaded adapter to lengthen the linkage that attaches to the back of the kickdown "pivot" lever. With some trial and error, you can get the linkage working perfectly. No aftermarket (e.g. Lokar) stuff required.

However, there's more to setting up the kickdown linkage than the quick "at the track" method. It requires adjustments of the kickdown valve "stop" at the valve body and lengthening/shortening the linkage so that an 1/8" drill placed thru the alignment holes will locate the kickdown pivot lever correctly. Then the shop manual method will work, assuming that you're using the Holley throttle lever adapter for Mopars (to get the correct ratio as mentioned by John Kunkel above). Edelbrock carbs or non-Mopar Carter AFB's require the Edelbrock throttle adapter for Mopars.

Mark H.
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  #9  
Old 09-23-2006, 04:03 PM
John Kunkel John Kunkel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwc43
No, John it's absolutely corect (sic) and by the service manual as I stated. Go read one some time.
If you're so sure of that how about providing the year of the service manual with that procedure; page and paragraph.

I will expect your usual answer which is no answer at all.

The quote provided by 72Challenger is in every FSM from '62 to present date.
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  #10  
Old 09-23-2006, 04:06 PM
John Kunkel John Kunkel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwc43
No, John it's absolutely corect (sic) and by the service manual as I stated.
If you're so sure of that how about providing the year of the service manual with that procedure; page and paragraph.

I will expect your usual answer which is no answer at all.


Quote:
Go read one some time.

Take your own advice.

The quote provided by 72Challenger (reply #7) is in every FSM from '62 to present date.
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  #11  
Old 09-26-2006, 11:32 PM
runnerdude runnerdude is offline
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Thanks for the tips guys, I got it working now, it is shifting a little too early now into 3rd, but ill play with it tomorrow night and get it right. Thanks again guys for the help.
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Old 09-27-2006, 12:34 AM
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dwc43 dwc43 is offline
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Biggrin

Quote:
Originally Posted by runnerdude
Thanks for the tips guys, I got it working now, it is shifting a little too early now into 3rd, but ill play with it tomorrow night and get it right. Thanks again guys for the help.
Welcome,anytime.
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  #13  
Old 09-28-2006, 11:31 PM
mhenesian mhenesian is offline
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kunkel
If you're so sure of that how about providing the year of the service manual with that procedure; page and paragraph.

I will expect your usual answer which is no answer at all.





Take your own advice.

The quote provided by 72Challenger (reply #7) is in every FSM from '62 to present date.
Sorry, John
I'm not disagreeing with you. The shop manual is fine (and I've read it cover to cover ! Best $25 I every spent ! Period) I'm just relating a method that's worked for me for over 30 years, and can be used when the valve body, linkage stuff are out of whack, hope you're not offended,

Thanks, Mark H
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  #14  
Old 09-29-2006, 03:25 PM
John Kunkel John Kunkel is offline
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My comments weren't directed toward you, Mark, they were directed at dwc for his absurd claim that the FSM says to close the throttle blades before adjusting the linkage. As usual, he's wrong and won't answer a challenge to can't back up the claim.

Methods of adjustment other than the FSM are fine as long as one understands the basic concept of the linkage operation; many don't as is evidenced by the problems many have with cable setups.
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  #15  
Old 09-29-2006, 10:00 PM
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dwc43 dwc43 is offline
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Biggrin

I got it right out of a service manual so how's it wrong? You just like to start your same old shit. That's all and we overlook it. We will still pray for you.
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  #16  
Old 09-30-2006, 03:46 PM
John Kunkel John Kunkel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwc43
I got it right out of a service manual so how's it wrong?
Well, smarty, check back to reply #9 where I challenged you to cite the exact "service manual" where you found that so-called info. Betcha can't.


Quote:
You just like to start your same old shit. That's all and we overlook it.

Yep, same old shit; you post statements that are so bizarre that they could have only come from the throes of a wet dream and when challenged for proof you dummy up.
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