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  #1  
Old 10-06-2006, 04:35 PM
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Kingofthehill Kingofthehill is offline
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Default Starving for oil when it launches, dang...

on my 68' 440 barracuda im starving for oil under hard launch...

just cruising around its fine... but if i launch hard i notice my oil pressure drops to nothing till the car level's out and i let off it...

its ONLY under a launch or say a hard drop from 3rd to 2nd.... just seems when the oil would slush to the back of the pan..

its a stock pan because i couldnt find anything else that would fit around the crossmember and steering...

is this a problem that people commonly run into?

running a high volume oil pump with stock pickup but the motor is putting out almost 600hp and i guess i didnt build up the oil system enough? any suggestions?

Thanks

JOe
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  #2  
Old 10-06-2006, 04:45 PM
72Challenger 72Challenger is offline
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At a minimum you need a baffle in your pan. This is an easy mod and can be done to the stock pan. There is an article about it somewhere that shows the right shape, location, etc., I'll try and find it.
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  #3  
Old 10-06-2006, 05:13 PM
beepbeepsrule beepbeepsrule is offline
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A stock windage tray will help. It keeps the oil from having a straight shot up into the block, acts like a lid on the pan.
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  #4  
Old 10-06-2006, 06:27 PM
mhenesian mhenesian is offline
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Hi Kingofthehill,

I pretty sure all stock Mopar B/RB pans are baffled, even the standard performance ones. I've never seen one not baffled. You're accelerating hard enough so the stock pan just doesn't have enough capacity to keep the pickup covered - with oil riding up the back baffle. A windage tray isn't going to keep the pickup covered (it's too high above the sump), except that it aids "stripping" the oil off the rotating crank. This will feed more oil to the passenger side and bottom of the pan - at high revs.

Warning - If you use the stock Mopar B/RB windage tray, be sure to open up the "drain back" slots to ~ 1/4" width. Stock, they are barely open. On hard right turns, one of my 440 Roadrunners was starving for oil, because the oil couldn't drain back to the pickup fast enough. Right turns move the oil to the drivers side of the pan, thereby draining the passenger side and uncovering the pickup ! Opening the slots completely solved the problem !

I'm also running the hi-volume Melling M63-HV oil pump (it's also hi-pressure) and the once recommended Mopar Performance 5 qt B/RB pan (stock pan is ~4 qts, but I think you can overfill it by 1 qt). This 5 qt pan is a reproduction of one Mopar used in the very early sixties on 413/426 engines.

If I had to do it again, I'd get the Street Hemi pan (6 qt capacity) from Mancini Racing. This gives you a 7 qt system including the oil in the filter.

Use a small pry bar to "wedge" open the slots. This is much easier than trying to grind or file them. The Hemi pan will fit all Mopar B and E bodies without any mods to the chassis. Not sure about the '68 Barracuda.

Mark Henesian
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  #5  
Old 10-07-2006, 12:44 AM
EngineDoc EngineDoc is offline
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King,
So if you don't launch hard, and bring the RPM's to shift point, whatever that is, no prob, everythings OK? That would almost eliminate the pump emptying the pan senario, unless you have some kinda drain back issue. My next guess would be the pickup tube is not parallel to the pan bottom or the pickup base to pan bottom distance is off. Might the tube have been twisted somehow on assembly? Funny story, had a guy forget a red shop rag in the lifter valley and the oil wouldn't drain back when he was on it, but under normal cruising everything was normal.
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  #6  
Old 10-07-2006, 02:04 AM
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dwc43 dwc43 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingofthehill
is this a problem that people commonly run into?

running a high volume oil pump with stock pickup but the motor is putting out almost 600hp and i guess i didnt build up the oil system enough? any suggestions?

Thanks

JOe
That's your first problem. You can't run a hi volume pump with a stock pan, it will suck it dry every time and leave a lot of oil in the valve cover area too. You also need to run a windage tray and a race oil pan. You can get a stock type pan to fit your car as well as a pan with a kick out on it. Che3ck them out at www.kevko.net SAme things we run on our race cars and they work great. You can also use a Moroso accumulator too, but that's just a cruch, not the correct way to fix it.
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  #7  
Old 10-07-2006, 07:55 AM
Mean Gene Mean Gene is offline
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Kevko has no big block pans.
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  #8  
Old 10-07-2006, 08:18 AM
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Ive got the Moroso deep sump on my 440 and had no issues with fit but it's in a C body and I'm not producing more than 450hp. Oil pump is a melling high volume (not high pressure). Only issue I did have is that the pan sat less than 1" off the pavement with stock tires/wheels. Knocked a hole in the pan at about 115 one day blowing off a 5.0 mustang (I know, street racing is bad) and got it to the house with less than 2 quarts left in the beast. Now I run taller tires and don't drive that fast with it. Old age has a way of mellowing one out.
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  #9  
Old 10-07-2006, 11:07 AM
69BarracudaFS 69BarracudaFS is offline
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DonĀ“t get me wrong, but is there enough oil in the pan? Had this problem with a completly different engine which had a wrong dipstick, found it out when I changed the oil for the first time.
Chri
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  #10  
Old 10-07-2006, 03:03 PM
mhenesian mhenesian is offline
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Have to disagree with DWC43,

A stock B/RB pan works fine with the hi-volume oil pump and stock pickup, as long as bearing clearances are not huge. The 1/2" Hemi pickup is extra insurance, but I've never had a problem with an original factory 3/8" pickup. The hi-volume pump (which is also high pressure - take one apart, they use the Hemi relief spring !) is better at maintaining ~65 psi of pressure when the engine is real hot, and brings the pressure up faster off idle. You can't pump the pan dry unless the bearings are gone, a rocker shaft plug has popped out, rear oil plug (behind last cam bearing) has popped, oil filter is leaking, spinning off, etc... other bad stuff. But you have to pay attention to the drain back issues, especially with windage trays. And don't leave any "red" rags in there !

For road racing, circle track, of course, you need a much better than stock system, usually dry sump, or a high capacity 'knocked out' pan. Oil movement under very hard cornering forces will uncover the oil pickup, even on the street. With a stock B/RB pan, stomping on the brakes can also result in low or zero oil pressure. You just have to make sure that the stock pan is always topped-off before you head out on the road. Too bad Kevko doesn't make a B/RB pan. This has nothing to do with hi-volume pumps. See Melling's web document:

http://data.melling.com/Tech%20pdfs/HIGHVOLUMEPUMPS.pdf

Mark H.
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  #11  
Old 10-08-2006, 05:48 AM
72Challenger 72Challenger is offline
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The suck-the-pan-dry myth has been debunked here before, everyone seems to get it except DW. Kingofthehill, there's one more thing that hasn't been mentioned yet, and that's a swinging pickup. This was designed specifically for the problem you're having, and will solve it perfectly.
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  #12  
Old 10-08-2006, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mean Gene
Kevko has no big block pans.
Sorry about that, you are correct. I'm running them on the small block.
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  #13  
Old 10-08-2006, 11:21 AM
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dwc43 dwc43 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 72Challenger
The suck-the-pan-dry myth has been debunked here before, everyone seems to get it except DW. Kingofthehill, there's one more thing that hasn't been mentioned yet, and that's a swinging pickup. This was designed specifically for the problem you're having, and will solve it perfectly.
Guess it's not debunked, cause he's sucking the pan dry, it aint all going up in the engine. He's going to need a bigger pan with scrapper and baffles if he's going to run that pump. Someone said all the BB oil pans have stock baffles, they don't, only the Hemi pan has the baffles in it. That would help if he had a stock hi pressure pump, but with that HP and clearances it must have he can use either.
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  #14  
Old 10-08-2006, 07:42 PM
Dukes2fast Dukes2fast is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwc43
Someone said all the BB oil pans have stock baffles, they don't, only the Hemi pan has the baffles in it.
Not true.
http://www.autohobbydigest.com/tables.php?10_Oil_Pans

Some BB pans had baffles some did not. I have two "187" pans one from a 1968 440hp motor, it has baffles one from a 1969 non-hp 383, no baffles.
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  #15  
Old 10-08-2006, 09:48 PM
72Challenger 72Challenger is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwc43
he's sucking the pan dry
Didn't you even read the post? It loses pressure during launch, the only time the pressure drops is during hard acceleration. If the pan were dry he wouldn't have pressure before the launch either, and certainly the pressure wouldn't come back as soon as he levels out, because the engine would still be turning at higher RPM. So why does he have pressure at speed, if the pan is dry? The oil is sloshing to the back of the pan and uncovering the pickup, that's all. Baffles and/or a swinging pickup will solve this problem, the high-volume pump is a desirable upgrade.
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  #16  
Old 10-08-2006, 11:16 PM
Shaun Shaun is offline
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I agree with 72 Challenger. The oil is sloshing too much and uncovering the pickup. Someone mentioned the pickup tube could be mis-aligned,or off the bottom of the pan too much-could be-that's something to check out.
Baffles,or a baffle will help. That much I can promise you. You described your problem so well that I can't beieve all the disagreements and overthinking and boasting how much everyone knows!!
The high volume pump is good,if you have fully grooved main bearings and a windage tray. If you don't,then you really need to consider them(at least the windage tray and baffles). The windage tray is not a crank scraper. It keeps the crank from being overwhelmed by oil friction(it doesn't dip into to the oil as much-hence the name,windage). But as someone else said,you need to make sure that the tray has drainback adequacy and some don't provide enough area for the oil to get back into the pan. Drill a couple of holes and open up the slots. The windage tray will free up at least 10 horses and keep more oil in your pan,without sacrificing anything.
I run a MP High volume pump,windage tray and fully grooved mains in my 65 Swepty(it ran a best of 12.30 in the 1/4). It has the stock truck pan(it is a 9T block-one of the last ones). I believe they hold 7 quarts and friend,it launches. I don't have baffles in it(though I considered it-I'm a welder/machinist). Almost 11-1 CR,an 850 Double Pumper Holley,240/246* duration at .050 with .501 /.507 lift......the list goes on and not that extreme,but it fits and goes. A baffle may do it,but the windage tray and fully grooved mains will also help you. But the baffle(it sounds) is what you need most,unless your pickup is out of alignment. Is it the stock dipstick? If it isn't,make sure you have the correct amount of oil in it.
Shaun
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  #17  
Old 10-10-2006, 07:00 PM
Mean Gene Mean Gene is offline
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Not to change the subject, but can anyone tell me the distance between the bottom of the pick-up tube and the oil pan?
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  #18  
Old 10-10-2006, 07:10 PM
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pishta pishta is offline
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look up a cut-a-way drawing of a pan and youll see it is parallel, With the proper pickup/pan combo, that is all you need to know but we all know the mix and match game we play. It looks to be less than an inch in the drawings, not to scientific though. Update between 3/8 and 1/2 inch according to http://www.aa1car.com/library/2005/us020516.htm
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