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  #1  
Old 10-19-2006, 03:47 PM
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67satty 67satty is offline
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Default Check Out My Combo - Tell me how much is "wrong"

Here's what I have so far:

'71 440 block: bored .040, honed with torque plate, align honed, decked .012
'71 steel crank: ground .010 under
'71 stock rods: reconditioned, ARP rod bolts
TRW "440 6 Pack" pistons
Speed Pro Plasma Moly rings
Rotating assemby balanced
452 heads: milled .012, valve job, one step up from stock valve springs
Compression will be about 9.5:1 (assuming 90cc combustion chambers -- which haven't been measured yet and probably never will be -- and factoring everything else in and making all the calculations).

Camshaft: Here's where I need your help

I'm deciding between these:

Engle .504/272, 224 @.050
Engle .520/276, 230 @ .050

Comp Cams .488/.491, 274/286, 230/236 @ .050
Comp Cams .525, 275/287, 231/237 @ .050

Racer Brown (call him and have him custom grind something)

MP non-adjustable rocker setup.

Intake will be a Performer RPM or Street Dominator
Holley 3310 cuz I can get one cheap
Electric Fuel pump
Hooker 1 and 7/8" headers
Dynamic 11" converter in the 2500 to 3000 range
3.55 or 3.91 gears
9X28" Mickey Thompson Street ETs on 15X7 cop wheels
'67 318 Satellite with full interior, stock springs (maybe XHD), stock torsion bars, power steering, manual disc brakes

Car will be used for going to cruise nights with my family and trips down the 1/8 and 1/4 mile. I don't care about mileage or taking long trips on the highway. I'd like to get into the 12s in the quarter.

What do you think?

One of my concerns. Piston to valve clearance. Can anybody give me some advice?
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  #2  
Old 10-19-2006, 04:07 PM
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pishta pishta is offline
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Whats wrong? That is an opinionated question but for starters:
Milled heads and non adjustable rockers (just get your preload correct, stamped rockers are notorious for being "hit or miss" on their ratios) I would consider Crane or Erson ductile adjustable rockers just becasue they are more accurate and can compensate for milled heads. You will need mechanical ball and socket pushrods, but you may need custom pushrods anyway with milled heads and stock rockers.
Go with Racer Brown custom grind. Not much more than a shelf grind and youll get generations of experience with Mopar motors and your driving expectations.
TRW six pack pistons. Those weigh a ton! You have already balanced your assembly so this is the least desireable component to change.
I like the 3.55 rear gears, good compromise on street and strip gearing. The 3.91 would be better suited on a taller tire.
Sounds like a nice ride, build it, run it, enjoy it. Repeat if necessary....
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  #3  
Old 10-19-2006, 05:30 PM
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I'm using a .044" head gasket, forgot to mention that. Doesn't that make up for the heads being milled .012 and the block decked .012 since the stock gasket back then was .020? Isn't it pretty common to mill the heads and deck the block this amount to clean 'em up? I can't imagine everyone doing a stock type rebuild that has their heads and blocked cleaned up ends up having to run adjustable rockers? Just playing devil's advocate here, trying to learn.

What's the max head gasket thickness you can run before it messes things up?
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  #4  
Old 10-19-2006, 08:30 PM
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dave571 dave571 is offline
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Your thick gasket should off set you milling., so I don't think that will be an issue, BUT pushrod length should be checked when it is assembled.

The piston to valve clearance also should be chacked, but I run those trw slugs in my car with no clearance issues. Yes they are heavy, but below 600 hp they are still usable. I've managed to run 11's with thos pistons, so they won't keep you out of the 12's.

The second comp grind may get you into the 12's. I've run the first one in a 440 very similiar to yours, in B a runner and it couldn't even sniff a 12.

I'd say on the whole, the combo is decent, but I feel it isn't agressive enough for regular 12's. More like a nice solid mid 13 second car.

-more cam, like an old school 509, or a racer Brown with 236 duration.
I Like Racer Brown, and have used them for a few years now.

Lots of talk about how newer grinds are way better, but that is a lot of BUNK IMHO.

The first comp you quoted is a great example. I Put one of those in a 69 runner.
Ran the ssh 24 (232 @ 50 480" )racer brown in a 69 sport sattelite at the same time .
Both cars: 440's , 452's ported by me
runner had about 9.6:1, satelite 9:1,
runner 4 gear, sat 727, with 3 k 150 dollar converter,
runner holley single plain intake with 750 speed demon, sat 69 iron intake with 750 speedemon
runner 323's with a 25" tire, sat 355's with a 28.5" tire,
both hooker headers with 2.5" exhaust.

The satelite would eat the runner for breakfast all day long.

back to running 12's.....

-More stall. You're already buying a dynamic. A good converter(like a dynamic) will drive nicely on the street, even with a higher stall rating. My dynamic 9.5" flashes between 3400 and 3600, and drives almost like a stocker under light throttle.

-391's for sure. Maybe even 410's but not a big spread in ropm there with the 28" tire.

If you go to the track, and look at 13 second car's and 12 second cars, USUALLY the main difference in them, is that the 12 second car has more stall, and more gear. Perhaps slight cam differences too, but for the most part they will look similiar under the hood( carb, intake, heads, exhaust, etc.)

Don't get me wrong here, a 13 second car is pretty quik. Quiker than a hemi was out of the box, but 12's need a little more dedication.
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  #5  
Old 10-20-2006, 10:51 AM
JLM440 JLM440 is offline
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Another cam to consider is the comp XE284H, 507/510- 240/246@ 50, i ran 10.9s with this cam in a 3100 duster with a 451 & 9.73 comp. & stock 906s, this cam had gobbs of low-end & mid-range power with a 3000 stall, i highly recammend you get an adj. valve train also, it just makes things much easier when trying to get the proper preload, i know its extra $$$ but in the long run it will pay off, one other thing i would recammend is get the pro-magnum lifters or equivalent, the stockers just don't hold up well with these aggresive cams & higher spring pressures & high RPM, trust me when i say this or ask me how i know.
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  #6  
Old 10-20-2006, 02:03 PM
451Mopar 451Mopar is offline
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Do you have the TRW piston numbers? The #2355 is suppose to be the 10:1 compression 6-pack replacement piston, there is also a (I believe this is the number, but I haven't comfirned it) #2366 that is about a 9.5:1 compression.

The TRW pistons does have valve reliefs that should clear the cams you are looking at. The TRW is a nice piston for the price, but a bit on the heavy side, being 880 grams vs. 640 for a simular Ross piston (#820101). The combined piston/pin weights would be 1071 grams for the TRW compared to 802 grams for the Ross pistons.

The Comp Cams .525, 275/287, 231/237 @ .050, is the cam you want to use, along with the Performer RPM intake.

This will get you very close to an engine car craft built a few years back, but they used out of the box Edelbrock heads and made well over 500 HP, I think around 535HP, and gobs of torque (I think 580 ft/lbs?).

This leaves the heads. They are whats going to hold you back. You should at least run the larger 2.14"/1.81" valves with some port work. If you have the extra money, I would really consider the Edelbrock heads if you really want to run 12's with a mild cam, and gear.

I would make sure the tires fit the '67 wheel opening, Not a lot of space for wide tires on the '66-'67 B-Bodies.

The stock rocker will probbly work, but if you go with any more cam/stiffer valve springs you may push the pushrods through the rockers pushrod cup area. Usually the stock pushrods are the wrong length when using a new cam/lifters. The last 440 I built, there was a big difference in the pushrod seat distance of the new lifter compared to the original.
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  #7  
Old 10-20-2006, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 451Mopar
Do you have the TRW piston numbers? The #2355 is suppose to be the 10:1 compression 6-pack replacement piston, there is also a (I believe this is the number, but I haven't comfirned it) #2366 that is about a 9.5:1 compression.
The TRW piston number is L2355F-040, so they are .040 over 6-pack replacement pistons. Some people have mentioned having to cut the pistons or the compression will be too high. This made no sense to me so I spent about two hours calculating the compression ratio/crunching all the numbers one day and came up with 9.5:1 with a 90cc 452 head.

Quote:

The TRW pistons does have valve reliefs that should clear the cams you are looking at.
Do you know why they made these pistons with valve reliefs back in the day? It doesn't seem like they would've been necessary with the cam they were using in the 440-6 motors back then.

Quote:

The Comp Cams .525, 275/287, 231/237 @ .050, is the cam you want to use, along with the Performer RPM intake.
This is the cam I've been leaning towards.

Quote:

This leaves the heads. They are whats going to hold you back. You should at least run the larger 2.14"/1.81" valves with some port work. If you have the extra money, I would really consider the Edelbrock heads if you really want to run 12's with a mild cam, and gear.
I'd love to run the Edelbrock heads but it's just not in the budget. I figure this is an easy swap/upgrade when I do get the money later.

Quote:

I would make sure the tires fit the '67 wheel opening, Not a lot of space for wide tires on the '66-'67 B-Bodies.
I talked to a couple '66'-'67 owners at the track who were running 9X28 Mickey Thompsons with stock wheelwells and springs in the stock location. One guy said to use 4.5" backspacing, the other said 5.5".

Quote:

The stock rocker will probbly work, but if you go with any more cam/stiffer valve springs you may push the pushrods through the rockers pushrod cup area. Usually the stock pushrods are the wrong length when using a new cam/lifters. The last 440 I built, there was a big difference in the pushrod seat distance of the new lifter compared to the original.
This may be an area I want to consider spending more money on. Thanks for all the input.
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  #8  
Old 10-20-2006, 08:13 PM
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dave571 dave571 is offline
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The cam and the heads are the heart of any engine.

BUT..
To say you need oversize valves or E heads to run 12's is a bit much.

My best pass with my 452's was 12.45. The car was consistant in the 12.4's. Stock valves and a home port bowl blend, and gasket match.

If you can do some port work, or have a friend who can, you can do a set of iron heads cheaply.

Even now, I run 11.7's with stock valve size in 915 heads. Bigger valves with tamer cams, only proves to hurt velocity, and throttle response.
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  #9  
Old 10-20-2006, 08:33 PM
Shaun Shaun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLM440
Another cam to consider is the comp XE284H, 507/510- 240/246@ 50, i ran 10.9s with this cam in a 3100 duster with a 451 & 9.73 comp. & stock 906s, this cam had gobbs of low-end & mid-range power with a 3000 stall, i highly recammend you get an adj. valve train also, it just makes things much easier when trying to get the proper preload, i know its extra $$$ but in the long run it will pay off, one other thing i would recammend is get the pro-magnum lifters or equivalent, the stockers just don't hold up well with these aggresive cams & higher spring pressures & high RPM, trust me when i say this or ask me how i know.
That's the cam that I run and I get 12.30 spinning(haven't added weight yet),but when I get the 65 Truck set up properly,I'd be willing to bet I get in the low 11's.
That cam comes in a K-kit,too,so everything is matched.
I would consider running adjustables though. Leave out as much guesswork as you can.
On that topic,what's your piston deck height? Mine are in the hole .004. I have KB Hyps and I run the Fel pro 1009 gaskets(.039). I couldn't even get the valves to hit an eighth inch of clay. My guess is your fine,as long as your cam is installed right.
But to know your CR is right,you should cc your heads. It's not difficult and doesn't take very long. Go to a feed store and get a big plunger for worming cows(or elephants! ). The bigger, the better. remember,one cc is one ml.
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  #10  
Old 10-20-2006, 08:53 PM
Shaun Shaun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 451Mopar
The Comp Cams .525, 275/287, 231/237 @ .050, is the cam you want to use, along with the Performer RPM intake.

This leaves the heads. They are whats going to hold you back. You should at least run the larger 2.14"/1.81" valves with some port work. If you have the extra money, I would really consider the Edelbrock heads if you really want to run 12's with a mild cam, and gear.
I suggest more cam. Duration is what you need . 452's are good heads. have you ever read the Mopar Muscle Mag series on OEM heads? Check it out. http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/t..._ii/index.html There is three,or four segments to this.
Bigger than stock valves will only respond to higher lifts and more duration,so why? How much experience do you have with porting? Do you have access to a flow bench? if not,be careful and stick with the 2.08 and 1.74's. You will lose velocity and that won't get you to the 12's.
Good luck and it sounds pretty good!
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  #11  
Old 10-20-2006, 10:58 PM
JLM440 JLM440 is offline
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Dave571 & Shaun, I couldn't agree with you more, If i can run 10.9s @ 122+ in a 3100 car with BONE STOCK 906s, anyone can, its not rocket sience, to run mid 12s even in a B Body won't take much of a 440 to get you there with some gears & the right stall & stickys, you really don't even need to port the heads, just do a good valve job, once you start grinding on them there more prone too failure (leaks) thats why there BEST left unported, they will last a long time. & stick with the small valves, you will loose velocity at lower rpms, to really take advantage of the larger valves, the heads need porting to a good degree, otherwize your just waisting $$$$ & will see no benefit, if you decide to do any porting, just do a bowl blend, it is always best to practice on a dummy head & take measurements. sorry if i'm sounding like a jerk, don't mean too LOL, but its funny how too many people just feel that because the eddy heads are there, all of a sudden, the iron heads are no good anymore, IF i had extra bucks & no heads, i might get some, but most of us don't have those kind of funds, you don't need eddys to runs 12s...
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  #12  
Old 10-21-2006, 12:28 AM
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67satty 67satty is offline
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Default I ran 12s with Used, Stock 906s

A long time ago I ran 12.80s with a set of second-hand, unported 906s. The car was a '72 Challenger with a 426 Wedge ("rebuilt" by putting new bearings in), solid lifter cam, Torker, 3310 Holley, 3800 stall converter and 3.91 gears. It was a street car slapped together by 20 year-olds drinking beer (me and my buddies).

Yeah, I'd like a set of Edelbrocks and at $1300 or so they are probably a great deal but I just don't have the money for them right now.
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Old 10-21-2006, 01:34 AM
Shaun Shaun is offline
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Well friend,money is made and spent every day. Fast costs money. How fast do you want to go? How fast can you afford?
My advice(and being a blue collar union welder/machinist,I know budgets),is to wait,make a plan,stick to it and save. Or,put it together,run what ya brung and go home for the season and do what you couldn't before(if you can then afford it after the penalties,fees and mileage). Or do you plan on just hunting fords and chebbies? I am just trying to help and to get a bead on what your plans are.
You need more cam. And if you get more cam,say my cam,get a bigger carb(or at least,run 80's to 84 jets in it,with the lightest spring,50 cc pump with an .045 shooter. then adjust the pump with the cams-try different ones 'til it launches with no hesitation). Check your jets by(starting with brand new plugs) going like hell to 6000 r's with her to the floor,then shut her down and coast to a stop(like you were at the track). Pull a rear plug and see what it tells ya. 80-84 should be perfect. Try running a 4 (wood,or phenolic)hole spacer-1/2,or 1 inch. An edelbrock pro-flo air cleaner,or K&N on top. A dual snorkel with clean air ducts is a good move too.
What's your suspension? Ladder bars,or 4-link?
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Old 10-21-2006, 02:55 PM
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Ladder bars or 4 link, LOL, that's a good one. Not on my budget.

Leaf springs and a pinion snubber. Lots of Mopars have been making into the 10s since the '60s with nothing fancier than that. How fast can I afford? I'm thinking high 12s should be within reach for what I'm willing to put into this car.

Hunting Ford and Chebbies? I'm a little old for street racing and here in San Diego County they put people in jail for doing that now (too many kids racing rice rockets have bitten the dust).

This car will be bracket raced at Barona 1/8 mile and Fontana 1/4 mile once in awhile and taken out for a cruise night every so often with three baby seats strapped in the back. I've owned/been working on/planning the car for about ten years so believe me I'm in no big hurry. I'm just at the point now where I need to #%$ or get off the pot with my cam/valvetrain selection before the motor buildup can proceed further.
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Old 10-21-2006, 04:37 PM
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Before my buddy talked me into Ladder Bars(he was real persuasive and he traded a brand new set to me,to weld a cage in his 62 Dart-that thing will be a screamer),I made a weld-in set of traction bars. They weld on to your housing,acting as the spring perch and as traction bars. They will do much more than a pinion snubber,or store bought traction bars anytime.
I know about budget builds,but sometimes you just have to get it done,huh. I've been building my 65 Sweptline for about a year now and it is really starting to take shape. I've been driving it here and there,just to keep the engine oiled and clean(and to clean off the rear tires ).
Take care
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Old 10-22-2006, 12:11 AM
451Mopar 451Mopar is offline
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You guys are right, it is possable to run 12's with stock 906 heads in something like a bracket car. I haven't build a "bracket engine" in 10 years.
Every Engine I have built in the last 10 years were for street/strip cars running between 3.23:1 to 3.91:1 gears, and usually stock to 3,500 stall converters. Also running at 5,800+ ft altitude.

I Know a few people who run pretty quick at the track with stock low compression engines, big cams, 4.56 or 4.88:1 gears and 8" converters, and they are sometimes even driven on the street, but the steep gear and converter make the "street" part a bit questionable.

One older combination that has worked well was a 440 with around 10.5:1 compression and the old Mopar 292/0.509" cam. This would run right at 13 flat or high 12's Here, and very low 12's at Topeka, KS. This car did have the larger valves and mild port work. I believe this car also only had 3.55:1 gears and about 3,000 stall converter.
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