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  #1  
Old 11-16-2006, 03:14 AM
go-fish go-fish is offline
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Default HP Speculations, Anyone?

As I stated in the "Max Horsepower For Smallblock" thread, I have gathered nearly all the parts for my 408" build and am anxiously awaiting my return trip back stateside to get started on the assembly. Here's some of the important stuff that I have and don't have a good estimate on my own of how many ponies I'll be puttin out.
* '70 or '71 360 (I do know it is one of the supposedly stonger blocks)
* 4'' forged stroker crank from Hughes
* forged I beam rods
* Diamond quench dome 8.5:1 pistons
* D1-SC ProCharger and H20/methanol injection from
thesuperchargerstrore.com (going to run around 9-11 psi)
* Aeromotive pump
Parts on the shopping list that are as good as bought are
* Hughes prepped intake (single plane Indy or Eddy Super Victor)
* Hughes prepped Indy 360-1 heads (closed chamber with roller rockers)
* Hydraulic roller lifters
The cam is a big question for me. I have to have a 114 deg LSA because of the supercharger. I am primarily after a hot street cam, the car will be used for tearing up road courses and occasionally 1/4 mile passes but it's primary duty will be cruising looking for street kills.
Anyone want to help me speculate. I am thinking somewhere about 600 hp. I would like to get it on a dyno when it's finished but I think it would be fun to hear someone elses opinion on the build.
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  #2  
Old 11-16-2006, 05:02 AM
DartGT66 DartGT66 is offline
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Which I-beam rods?
I really can't give any estimate, but the parts you are planning, should hp wise give an easy 600 hp.
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  #3  
Old 11-16-2006, 05:35 AM
72Challenger 72Challenger is offline
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It all depends on the cam. You've got enough airflow capability that you're going to have to go easy on the cam to keep it down to only 600 HP. Since the centrifugal supercharger doesn't come on until higher in the RPM range, you would probably be happier if you picked a cam with no more that about 220 degrees at .050. Combined with the big inches, this should give you enough bottom end to easily light up the tires at will at low revs, and the boost will give you the top end capability without needing to go radical on duration.
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  #4  
Old 11-16-2006, 06:25 AM
go-fish go-fish is offline
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I knew I was going to do a 408 stroker, after securing a good running 360 I started with buying the supercharger and told them the stroker plan. I told them I wanted on with 750 hp capabilities, didn't want to splurge for an F1 so I got the D1-SC. Bob at tscs.com said thier customers had good dealings with Hughes, so to Dave I went. He set me up with the forged rotating assembly. I am deployed right now but I have the reciepts with me because last time I was out of country Hurricane Katrina took alot of my stuff, not this time,lol. I can check on the manufacturer of the rods tommorow, they're something like K1? I know they were made in Michigan, I don't know how I remember that but not the make.
*Just googled K1, thats them, I remember the logo*
Here's a cam question, is there a cam company I could call up and tell them what I want to do and they pretty much select one for me or point me in the right direction? I have heard alot about the Xtreme Energy cams and seen them used in other forced induction engines with good results. I am relatively unlearned in the cam area.
I also have a 5 spead and according to Keesler's calculator, with my 3.73's, will be running about 75 mph at 2400 rpm, given I only had 550hp. The speed analyzer won't let you change the horsepower.
Will the boost be just coming on at that rpm range? And is this going to affect cam choice? This is again where it gets fuzzy to me, with little parasitic loss at lower rpm it will drive somewhat like a naturally aspirated car and then it become even more of a monster when you start getting on the go pedal. Is there two different characteristics to boosted engines that you have to take into account when selecting a cam, I guess that is why the wider lobe seperation.I think I just answered my own question but if there is anything about that someone could elaborate on it would be nice to gain the knowledge.
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  #5  
Old 11-16-2006, 06:51 AM
72Challenger 72Challenger is offline
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You are already aware of one of the main changes to a SC cam, the wider lobe angle. There is also less need for split duration because the extra pressure will force the exhaust out. Did you get recommendations from TSCS? They deal with this all the time, I would trust them to make a recommendation. Comp will custom grind anything you want and would probably be able to make a good recommendation as well, but that's not their specialty.

Where the boost comes on is determined by the pulleys and the sizing. Again, work with your vendor on this for the best answers, but I think you will need more that 2400 RPM to develop good boost. Of course you can set it up to deliver that early, but at the sacrafice of top end potential.

Changes in HP will not change the road speed at a given RPM, that's why the calculator won't do it, it doesn't need to. (Of course, if you have crazy HP and are spinning the tires at 75 MPH, then the calculator won't be accurate!)
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  #6  
Old 11-16-2006, 08:47 AM
darktone darktone is offline
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will you need a stronger block for 600HP? Would the H beam rods be better? or even an Oliver steel rod? This should be a monster when your done.
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  #7  
Old 11-16-2006, 10:10 AM
BJSracing BJSracing is offline
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I am with the stronger rod choice. I probably wouldn't really run much over a
.500 lift cam. The boost will take care of the rest. I am not going to even venture to a guess on HP that this pig will put out but I sure would love to hear about the dyno results. Let us know man. Sounds great.
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  #8  
Old 11-16-2006, 12:01 PM
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1973Swinger 1973Swinger is offline
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One thing that I would do with the regular 360 block is put one of the bottom end girdles on it. They dont cost all that much and its always better to be safe than sorry, especially with it being supercharged and not a R3 block. Sounds like a sweet powerplant though, cant wait to see the dyno results.
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  #9  
Old 11-16-2006, 03:12 PM
go-fish go-fish is offline
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Dyno results will be a ways off. I am just starting a six month deployment to Guam, I'll be back in spring. Plus, I have to find one in my area, I'm stationed in south Mississippi, I would be willing to travel to the panhandlae of Fla. or over to Baton Rouge, LA to find one.
As for the block, I read that the first casting, first 3-4 years, of the 360 was the strongest and I lucked onto one for free. It even ran, and it ran good. I will look into the rods again, I don't want the connecting rods to be a weak point in this thing. Any suggestions on those?
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  #10  
Old 11-16-2006, 03:25 PM
BJSracing BJSracing is offline
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Like was metioned. I would go with the Oliver's or Eagle H- beams. Hughes also makes a light weight H-beam. Any of those should do you fine.
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  #11  
Old 11-16-2006, 04:08 PM
345Dart 345Dart is offline
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and don't go to a .030 overbore if you don't have to - keep as much cylinder wall as you can. Maybe Sandborn will chime in here - but I think your weak link will be the 2 bolt main block - girdle or no girdle. To handle 600+hp will need some serious bottom end attention. Hughes should also have some good points on this for you.

Talk to Jim at Racer Brown cams on a custom cam for your application.

Man it will be sweet.
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  #12  
Old 11-16-2006, 04:50 PM
go-fish go-fish is offline
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The K1's are supposed to handle 800 hp but the website said they were foreign forgings finished in the States and that they were budget rods, Dave Hughes set me up with a rotating "kit". I'll look at the Eagles they're made in America all the way aren't they? I've got the pistons already so I have to go .030 over. And I do have a Hughes girdle wich I hope would be better than stock, I saw Milodon makes Mopar 4 bolt caps now and Pro-gram has been around for a while. I still have to bore the block, it's been align honed, so there is more machining to do when I get back home. It really would be worth the extra dough to 4 bolt it.
As for Racer Brown, I was thinking of them because I have heard nothing but good things and like how they operate. The Xtreme Energy series cam I was looking at was a Mopar only series that took advantage "intensity of the large Mopar lifter bores", according to Steve Dulcich in the last issue of Engine Masters. The engine he built was a budget 318 that put out 415 ponies with alot of stock stuff.
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  #13  
Old 11-16-2006, 05:28 PM
George G. Leverette George G. Leverette is offline
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Magazine HP is a figment of the writers imiganation after a couple of Buds or maybe some weed. Before you spend another nickle, invest in a book, BIG-INCH mopar small blocks from www.cartechbooks.com, this is one of the most enlightening books by a chrysler engineer ever written. A small block has several limitations, the first is the OEM oiling system, for extended high performance use the block are limited to approximately 430 HP for short duration blasts about 500 HP. After market blocks and parts are needed for the quoted HP expectations. A stock cast mopar crank and Eagle SIR rods with KB hypers will suffice to reach the horse power limits of the Mopar small block, according to the Chrysler engineer who is still employed in the Chrysler performance group. 400 real HP in an A-body is awsome and can be driven on the street safely. It sounds irresponsible to build a car to race on the street, ever think of the ederly with slow reaction times, children with short attention spans and illegial aleins who cannot read english and should not be driving? Either way a loss or life or serious injury should be carefull considered before street racing.
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  #14  
Old 11-16-2006, 07:17 PM
go-fish go-fish is offline
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I have "How To Build Big-Inch Mopar Small Blocks" by the guy with the confusing last name. Great book and should be required reading for small block stroker builders, I have recommended it to others myself. In the book it gives some examples of engines various big name engine builders have put together with a wide range of combos including stock blocks, amazing engines. The book does pay heavy attention to the R3 block, the featured engine is a R3/W5 combo I believe. There are some great selling points however I am going to stay with my block and knowing it has limitations, I am going to safegaurd against failure to the furthest extent I can.
And George you are absolutely right and I couldn't agree with you more about driving a high powered machine in situations that were unfavorable, such as racing in residential neighborhoods and on any roads that are more than all but deserted. That would be not only irresponsible but dangerous. One must know the boundaries of racing or spirited driving anywhere but a closed course.
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  #15  
Old 11-16-2006, 08:56 PM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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Two or three thoughts!

I would really look for an "R" block. They are out there---I have a friend that bought a new R1 with 59 degree lifter bores for $1200 in the crate. Another bought one for $1500. With the combo you are building, get the best foundation you can.

I would try to get a cam with more lift than .500". Those Indy heads will love lift---and cam lifts of up to .600" on the street are OK provided you use a roller.

The methanol injector is a smart move. Just about eliminates detonation.

Think about more carb than a single 750. That will be a major limiting choke point.

I don't know anything about your supercharger. But 10 lbs. of boost is OK for street use.

What is the HP? Don't know. My son has a GMC with a supercharged 355" GM engine. It pulls 720HP on the dyno. It produces 20 lbs. of boost, uses non ported Dart heads, two worked 750s, etc. Your engine has more potential than his GM 355" does.

Good luck in Guam!
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  #16  
Old 11-16-2006, 11:19 PM
go-fish go-fish is offline
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Thanks Sanborn on the suggestions. Looked around on the net for R blocks. Ouch! I am only an E-5 man, maybe when I get promoted. Also wouldn't I have to buy R specific stuff to replace the 360 parts? I still think I will stick with the 360 block and cross my fingers and keep the revs down.
The supercharger is a ProCharger D1-SC, self contained oil, centrifugal type. They are a more superior design to other centrifugals mostly because they don't require an oil line from the block wich keeps oil temps down by about 80 degrees lowering the charged air temperature.
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  #17  
Old 11-17-2006, 12:07 AM
daredevil daredevil is offline
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will the 360 block allow splayed caps or is this not an option
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  #18  
Old 11-17-2006, 12:29 AM
72Challenger 72Challenger is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go-fish View Post
I saw Milodon makes Mopar 4 bolt caps now and Pro-gram has been around for a while. ... It really would be worth the extra dough to 4 bolt it.
Actually, no it would not. Using studs and the girdle will get you as strong a bottom-end as it is possible to get from a stock block. The webs on a stock block are too thin to gain any real strength from the four-bolt caps. Drilling them weakens them, they weren't designed for this. The only exception is the T/A block which was designed for them. If you really feel you need the 4-bolt mains, get an aftermarket block.
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  #19  
Old 11-18-2006, 04:46 PM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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go-fish, there are actually several different "R" blocks. The "R" blocks with 59 degree lifter bores come with either 340 or 360 main bearing size. And just about everything else interchanges with standard blocks. There are some short deck blocks---which are the really the best to use for performance.

Keep your ears to the ground---one might turn up.

I wish I had one to sell, you would get a "special E-5" type price. I remember what it was like---especially when I was in---
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  #20  
Old 11-19-2006, 12:35 AM
go-fish go-fish is offline
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Speaking of Military Discount, Hughes was great he upgraded me from his Hughes rods to the K1's and gave me free shipping. It's stuff like that wich makes me believe the "Support the Troops" magnet and stickers, sometimes I wonder how those people really do support thier troops? Those things started off as fundraisers but sold so well people have been selling them for personal profit.
By the way Sanborn, there is a place called Polaris Point here that has a 30 foot tall white missle with black vertical stripes on the tip, I read in previous posts that you were a missle guy in the Army. It seems like Guam is a little far away from anywhere to be a missle base.
Back to the engine, I bought the oil galley reemers for the block but they went right in and seemed like it had already been done. This was a standard bore size block except for one cyl. that was .010 over with a different piston. It had all kinds of bolt on suff like a big yellow accel super coil and remote oil filter, it was in a blatantly fake 69 superbee . Would an R block require oiling mods? and what would I be looking for, R1,R3 w/ 59* lifters? Any R w/ 59* lifters?
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  #21  
Old 11-19-2006, 11:05 AM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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go-fish, you would be looking for any R block with 59 degree lifter bores. Most of the blocks would have the standard deck height of 9.600", some would have a deck height of 9.200". In my opinion, either would be OK. If you purchased a block w/9.200" deck height you would be faced with using shorter pushrods and different pistons. And, you would need to remove about .300" from the intake manifold surface. If you don't want to go through all this, then you need to look for a standard deck height block only.

I didn't realize you are on Guam.

The reason I said the local law might get excited if I ( a private citizen/grouchy/geezerly) had a missile in my front yard is I am directly under one of the flight paths to Nashville. And the other day, I saw that beautiful bird (AF #1) on approach to Nashville.
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  #22  
Old 11-20-2006, 03:25 PM
go-fish go-fish is offline
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Yeah, I am in the Navy (Seabee/Civil Engineer Corps). Guam is one of our deployment sites. We have a 10 month home/ 6 month deployed rotation. Our "home" is Gulfport, Mississippi. I did the best I could on the 'cuda with the ten months I had between Pakistan and Guam, I have a new daughter and we were recovering from Katrina. I got the entire suspension done, the brake system put on, and the transmission in. I ran out of money after I bought the engine parts and it coincided well with my deployment schedule, this is when I save all my car money.
BTW, I just found out the 340 replacement block has four bolt mains, Couldn't I turn down my crank journals and bore the block to 360 .030 over size? Would it be cheaper than a used R?
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  #23  
Old 11-20-2006, 06:32 PM
72Challenger 72Challenger is offline
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The resto block comes rough bored at 3.980", so you could easily use it instead of a 360 block. Whether it would be cheaper or not is hard to say, at about $1,900 new I bet you could find a used R for less. One thing to note is that the R has many variations. In addition to the deck height and lifter angles Sanborn already mentioned, you can get them with either the 340 or the 360 mains. One other gotcha - amazingly, some of them also come with only 2-bolt mains! Also, if it's used, you need to make sure it isn't already bored too big for your pistons, or you've got yet another expense. Your least expensive option for a replacement block would be to find a used, 59 degree, 9.60" deck R that can be cleaned up to 4.030. The safest and easiest may be the resto block.
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  #24  
Old 11-21-2006, 03:34 AM
go-fish go-fish is offline
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Alright, it is sounding like I won't be looking for a new block. Mainly because I don't want to spend the money I have saved to finish out with what I had originally had thought up. If I continue with my original plan though, I will probably have my engine spitting it's guts out of the oil pan, essentially, wasting money and having to do all of this again with better parts. What can I do to get it tamed down with the parts I already have. I can get a bigger pulley to tame the supercharger down. I was planning on a set of Indy 360-1 heads with a port job from Hughes, I suppose that would only be to the demise of the bottom end by helping the horsepower build. I have the rotating assembly with a Hughes girdle and the 71 360 block. I could use thicker gaskets to bring the compression ratio down from 8.5:1 to probably not enough. I don't need to be going for max power on this bottom end, but I don't want to buy stuff I already have but I can do some "minor" things to tame it down. How about a dual plane versus a monster single plane? Camming? Things that I need for completion are valve train, heads and intake, is there any combo that could make around say 500-550 hp efficiently? I am not looking forward to spilling parts on the road OR buying a different engine. Thoughts?
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Old 11-21-2006, 03:49 AM
72Challenger 72Challenger is offline
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Realize that the Indy heads can make 550 HP naturally aspirated. You can save a bundle of money by using stock heads. Keep the ports small and the velocity up, and you will have nice bottom end torque without boost. This is a perfect application for a dual plane manifold like the Performer RPM. Then set the ratio on the pulleys to build your boost in the 3500-5500RPM range. As for the cam, I stick with my earlier recommendation of no more than 220 degrees at .050, but do ask TSCS for their recommendation. They do boost for a living after all.
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  #26  
Old 11-21-2006, 06:02 AM
go-fish go-fish is offline
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I'll definately talk to them before I select a cam, they are probably the best ones to recommend a cam spec on my engine. They were pretty high on Hughes so I will also be talking to Dave about the heads and cam. I am saving alot of weight with the Alter-k-tion and power rack so if I use an iron head I'll probably break even on the weight. I guess I had these illusions of grandeure when selecting components and out-did my block. I read these damn Engine Masters magazines and start dreaming. With the money I would save on the heads I could re-do the sub par floor pan job and get some subframe connectors that are a pre-requisite for the uni-body. And I know that you don't have to have HP coming out of your ears to make an LS-1 killer. Still, I'm wondering just how much the girdle helps out. I re-read the Steve Szylagia? book, "How to Build Big Inch Smallblocks". He says the LA can handle something like 430 hp, so how much would a girdled LA handle? I need to find the answer to that question before really disecting combinations. TSCS.com did recommend a single plane intake but that may have been because I told them I wanted to go to 600 plus ponies. And, yeah, I could but I probably wouldn't be making that for very long before it was back to making 0. >>>>>>>>>Reality Sinking In<<<<<<<<<<<<<.
The objective of this thread has been met, LOL. I am better informed on what I am doing and enlightened a little. Overkill IS a bad thing sometimes.



I still want to be close to overkill though.
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