Starter and Z-bar Binding! pics

[dust]

My Z-bar is binding against the Magnum starter on my 360 Duster.

It looks like it is because I am using a Magnum starter, anybody have a 4spd and Magnum starter? I have not heard of this problem before… To grind down the ear on the starter, I'd have to got down to almost the threads.

‘May also have something to do with my modified /6 Z-bar. I no longer have the original starter to compare. This Z-bar did work when I had the original starter in.




[IMG]http://www.hemineko.net/images/forums/dodge/IMG_1795sm.jpg[/IM

[ehostler]

Convert to a hydralic clutch and you won't have a problem... lol

If the ear on the Z bar were about 2 inches longer, you would be good. It looks like 2 inches longer would jam it right into your headers.

[TK]

Can you ever so gently push on your headers, and then bend the linkage out some?
Emphasis, on ever so gently......

[cageman]

It looks to me the rod that hooks to the z bar is crooked. Is there a way you can move the arm on the z bar away from the starter, and that looks like it would help align the rod too.
Looking at that, Im glad I went magnum manifolds and Hydro clutch on my Valiant. she looks tight in there. Probably a necesary for your motor though..
Whatever you do, dont get rid of that starter, I think the problem lies in the slant z bar.
Cut the arm off, and rotate it so the clip is on the other side, away from the starter, that would put the rod on the other side and you look to have room then.

[bbeckwith]

Dust, on my 340 Duster I had the v8 z bar and it would get pinned between the TTIs and the starter so you're prolly not gonna be any better off with a v8 z bar either, tho mine could be bent a bit also. I got fed up with the whole crappy setup and went with a McLeod clutch and hydraulic throwout bearing once I discovered the TTIs did not leave me enough room to install a slave cylinder for the clutch actuation. (actually I prolly coulda but I didnt like the geometry or the proximity to the hot header tubes.) If you get sick of the original setup, I can take some photos of how I set mine up if you need some ideas/help.

BB

[dust]

Originally Posted by bbeckwith

Dust, on my 340 Duster I had the v8 z bar and it would get pinned between the TTIs and the starter so you're prolly not gonna be any better off with a v8 z bar either, tho mine could be bent a bit also. I got fed up with the whole crappy setup and went with a McLeod clutch and hydraulic throwout bearing once I discovered the TTIs did not leave me enough room to install a slave cylinder for the clutch actuation. (actually I prolly coulda but I didnt like the geometry or the proximity to the hot header tubes.) If you get sick of the original setup, I can take some photos of how I set mine up if you need some ideas/help.

BB

So, what did you do? Sounds like you could not get the slave cylinder in?

I'd really like to see some pictures if you have any, how much did the new system cost?

[dust]

Originally Posted by ehostler

Convert to a hydralic clutch and you won't have a problem... lol

If the ear on the Z bar were about 2 inches longer, you would be good. It looks like 2 inches longer would jam it right into your headers.

"won't have a problem..."

My dad and I have a saying: "It's never easy". And it's true 99% of the time ^_^

Modifying the Z-bar would probably accomplish nothing, like you said. So, I’m thinking up odd option now (real neat but odd). Keep the ideas rolling

[bbeckwith]

Dust,
I have a busy day today, I will try to get you some pics posted this evening of the setup. I will have to dig through the receipts to tell you the price of the hydraulic throwout bearing and master cylinder, I dont remember off hand. I originally bought a McLeod slave cylinder, but didn't use it because of clearance probs with the headers. TTI pipes are in the way, other brands wont be as bad I dont think. Anyways, later tonite I'll get the pics for you.

[bbeckwith]

dust, as promised some photos I just shot, sorry if they aren't the best as I was tired and elected not to put the car up on jacks and just reached underneath till I got a shot that I thought I could use! The first shows where I mounted the master cyl, then from under the dash how I bent the replacement rod to mount on the pedal assy, and then threaded up a connector from that rod to the pushrod on the master. I also tried to get a shot of the lines going into the bell, as well as the starter now free of encumbrances. Hope it helps. I also have some photos that someone else sent me of their duster with different headers and a slave cylinder if you are interested I can post them also.

[dust]

Originally Posted by bbeckwith

dust, as promised some photos I just shot, sorry if they aren't the best as I was tired and elected not to put the car up on jacks and just reached underneath till I got a shot that I thought I could use! The first shows where I mounted the master cyl, then from under the dash how I bent the replacement rod to mount on the pedal assy, and then threaded up a connector from that rod to the pushrod on the master. I also tried to get a shot of the lines going into the bell, as well as the starter now free of encumbrances. Hope it helps. I also have some photos that someone else sent me of their duster with different headers and a slave cylinder if you are interested I can post them also.

Thanks bbeckwith, I appreciate this.

If you can post those other pictures, I would like to see them.

Also, don't worry about getting receipts, I just want an idea of the cost.

What kind of modification did you have to make to get this system in? Obviously, you had to drill into the firewall but what about the bell housing and pedal assy?

Thanks again. --dust

[bbeckwith]

Hey Dust, just checked Summit prices...their wilwood master that I used is $67.00 and the McLeod Hydraulic throwout bearing is $350.00. Expensive but no more binding and the aggravation associated with it. Having my linkage bound up helped me smoke my last clutch in record time. Yes, I did have to drill three holes in the firewall to mount the master but that wasn't bad, the bellhousing didn't need any modification, there is a line from the master to the throwout bearing, and a line out of the throwout bearing used for bleeding the system. I just zip tied them up and out of the way of the bolts on the flywheel/clutch assy and I'm good to go. The pedal assy I only had to make a stop for pedal travel so the pedal would only move the rod 1" which is what McLeod said is needed for the master cylinder stroke to open the throwout bearing enough. I found when I had the pedal assy out of the car for sandblasting/and new paint, that there is a perfect spot already drilled in the frame for a nut and bolt to go through, that stops the pedal travel as the rod reaches 1" at the angle I set it up at. There is a tang on the assy that normally hits the bumpstop a little higher up on the frame, but the nut and bolt I used now stop pedal travel perfectly, like it was made for it. (how often does that happen?)
I have some pics of a guy's car that he sent to me when I was contemplating this change that I will post for you, he used a McLeod twin disc clutch and a slave cylinder that worked very nicely for him. When I mocked up the slave cylinder I bought from Red McLeod himself, I thought I had room till I installed the TTI headers while the motor was sitting on the k-frame on my garage floor before installing in the car. I was bummed to see the TTI tubes were in the way of installing the slave cylinder I had unless I wanted the rod at a funky angle, which I elected not to do since the slave would now be quite close to hot header tubes, and I figured would possibly have a short life that way. This other guy's photos show he has plenty of room with his headers, but dont' know what brand. I'll keep the TTIs, I like having clearance from road hazards, even if one of the tubes runs close to the oil pan and all around the starter...

[bbeckwith]

well after looking at those photos it's apparent that motor is sitting on a stand so I dont know about his header clearance after all. So much for accuracy.... There is another setup you might consider that I think McLeod is selling now, looks suspiciously like the setup Keisler was selling a while back and then refused to sell to me saying they were trying work out the bugs with the master cylinder, will post another pic. would make it way easier to install as the master installs in the hole in firewall where the rod to the z-bar used to pass through. Anybody used one?

ps, if you do a search on moparchat for hydraulic clutch you will find a number of folks have used inexpensive replacement/junkyard master cylinders and saved a lot of money over the options I presented.

[Clair]

Late-80's to early 90's Dodge Dakotas use something similar to that for a master cylinder, not sure about the slave (haven't gotten up under either of the two Daks in the local yard). I've been looking at something like the Dak master to convert my Valiant over to a juice clutch one of these days when I get around to putting the 5-speed in. I'll be using a Dak Magnum bellhousing with the rear-mounted slave, so HOPEFULLY there won't be any issues with header clearance.

IF the earlier Daks used a rear-mount slave, I'm pretty sure you can swipe one of those bells and use it on a regular 4-speed if you swap on the OD 5.125" bearing retainer. Not 100% sure on that, so do some measuring, but I kinda think the NP535 used that same size retainer. I'm also thinking they used a common 10.5" clutch and flywheel, too. The later Maggie Daks use a hybrid 11" flywheel that takes a 10.5" clutch & disk.

Clair

[dust]

Since I cannot afford to convert to hydraulic, I just fixed my linkage.

We had to move the outside pin to change the linkage geometry. After bending the pedal clutch rod, the linkage works perfectly except that if the clutch pedal hits the stop, the Z-bar taps the header (I should have grinded the Z-bar a little).

Now I have to find a larger than OE clutch pedal stop.

Thanks for you advise guys, I’ll review this again later when I get enough green to convert.



[IMG]http://www.hemineko.net/images/forums/dodge/IMG_1810sm.jpg[/IMG

[cageman]

How does it work? GOOD?
That master you have in the picture looks like the one Im using, but it is off of a 91 chev S10. My buddies dad was working on his 93 chev 1 ton with a big block and it had the exact same master as mine.

[bbeckwith]

Hi Cage,

I'm not sure if you are asking me or not but I can tell you that the master I'm using has not been a problem at all yet. Dont wanna jinx it.

[MY340]

Not bashing TTI's but you would think that for close to $600 they would make their headers work better with a SB/4spd combo.

Every post on any board I've ever read the person has problems with a 4spd and TTI's.

I'll stick with my cheaper coated Hedmans or Flowtechs when it comes time to replace them.

[Clair]

I bet their headers fit great on a stone-stock small block 4-speed setup. Problem is, there are only 3K original 4-speeds left, and 20K cars that are put-together specials like my Valiant. I don't have a problem with my TTI's not fitting the linkage, but I DO have a problem with obtaining the correct bellhousing pivot. I think Brewers has the correct one now, but I still don't have it on my car. What I have works, so I'm probably not going to change it any time soon.

Clair

[dust]

Originally Posted by Clair

I bet their headers fit great on a stone-stock small block 4-speed setup.

I agree. I've been very impressec by the design of the TTI's. FAR better than the Headman's I had...

[RobbMc]

Here's another solution. This starter will clear because it uses planetary gear reduction which pulls the motor in closer to the block leaving much more clearance between the starter and the headers:

http://www.robbmcperformance.com/pro...r_starter.html
http://www.robbmcperformance.com/pro...rter_home.html

[dust]

Originally Posted by RobbMc

Here's another solution. This starter will clear because it uses planetary gear reduction which pulls the motor in closer to the block leaving much more clearance between the starter and the headers:

http://www.robbmcperformance.com/pro...r_starter.html
http://www.robbmcperformance.com/pro...rter_home.html

That looks good, a little longer but from the picture it looks like it'll clear better than the OE style Mag starter.

But what's up with only 90-day warranty?

While I have your attention, are them fuel pumps Ethanol resistant?

[RobbMc]

Originally Posted by dust

That looks good, a little longer but from the picture it looks like it'll clear better than the OE style Mag starter.

But what's up with only 90-day warranty?

While I have your attention, are them fuel pumps Ethanol resistant?

Our starter has enough extra clearance to allow 143t flywheels to be used with many of the large tube TTI headers that won't work with the same flywheel and a Magnum ND style starter.

Officially our warranty is 90 days but we will make free repairs on products much older than that if it is obvious to us that the product was defective. Also, the 100% warranty is 90 days, but there is a 50% warranty for life; it will never cost you more than 50% of the cost of a new one to have your starter repaired, no matter how long you own it.

The material we use in our pumps will resist ethanol (but not methanol) if you flush the pump with gasoline after each weekend of racing. Gasoline/ethanol mixes are fine.

[dust]

Originally Posted by RobbMc

The material we use in our pumps will resist ethanol (but not methanol) if you flush the pump with gasoline after each weekend of racing. Gasoline/ethanol mixes are fine.

Mixes are fine? How about E85?

[RobbMc]

Originally Posted by dust

Mixes are fine? How about E85?

Never had anyone try it but according to our supplier it will work. Sorry we don't have more experience with E85.

[dust]

Originally Posted by RobbMc

Never had anyone try it but according to our supplier it will work. Sorry we don't have more experience with E85.

‘Good the hear that there is a Mopar mech pump that ‘should’ work with E85. Better than nothing.

Thanks for the info RobbMc

[lilcuda]

Originally Posted by bbeckwith

Hey Dust, just checked Summit prices...their wilwood master that I used is $67.00 and the McLeod Hydraulic throwout bearing is $350.00. Expensive but no more binding and the aggravation associated with it.

Do you have part numbers? I've been contemplating a Keisler hyd clutch setup, but since they are having problems, I'm thinking about peicing my own together.

Thanks!

Lee
1966 Barracuda, 340, 4 speed

[bbeckwith]

Lee,

I will have to dig up some receipts, will try to post #s for you this evening,

Bruce Beckwith

[bbeckwith]

Lee,

These are the part numbers from Summit Racing

the McLeod Hydraulic Throwout bearing is : MCL-1400-10
the Wilwood 1" remote mount master is : WIL-260-3378

Hope this is of some help.

[lilcuda]

Originally Posted by bbeckwith

Lee,

These are the part numbers from Summit Racing

the McLeod Hydraulic Throwout bearing is : MCL-1400-10
the Wilwood 1" remote mount master is : WIL-260-3378

Hope this is of some help.

Great. Thanks! How does this bearing mount to the trans? Is it a bolt-in or does it require a bunch of mods to the bearing retainer? Summit doesn't have a picture of it on their website.

Lee

[bbeckwith]

Originally Posted by lilcuda

Great. Thanks! How does this bearing mount to the trans? Is it a bolt-in or does it require a bunch of mods to the bearing retainer? Summit doesn't have a picture of it on their website.

Lee

The hydraulic throwout bearing mounts just like a regular throwout bearing except for the addition of a spacer that goes on the retainer first, then an adjustable spacer that screws in and out of the bearing you set up to give you around .020-.030 clearance between the bearing and the clutch. (dont remember off hand if those specs are right, but the directions will tell you) There are two hoses that lead to the bearing, one from the master, and the other is for bleeding the air out of the system, just like you were doing brakes. I just zip tied them up and out of the way after bleeding the system as they could possibly hit the bolts holding the clutch to the flywheel if they got loose. You just route the hoses through the hole in the bell where the original mechanical linkage was. If you're using something other than an A833, you may not need the extra spacer, but I did with an 833.