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  #1  
Old 11-22-2006, 08:29 PM
bjoehandley bjoehandley is offline
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Default No Safe US Made Vehicles?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/AUTOS/11/20/...ars/index.html

Insurance group names 13 safest cars for '07
No U.S. brands make the cut this year. Stability control a must-have to win.
POSTED: 11:03 a.m. EST, November 21, 2006


NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- After some changes to make the requirements more stringent, no U.S. models earned The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety's Top Safety Pick Award.

The winners of the awards, which are based on crash tests conducted by the Insurance Institute, were announced Tuesday.

Last year, the Ford Five Hundred large sedan and the closely related Mercury Montego made the list. Both earned Gold Top Safety Pick Awards.

The criteria for an award are more stringent than last year. Previously, there were two levels of Top Safety Pick Awards, Gold and Silver. This year, there is only one and it harder to earn than last year's Gold Top Safety Pick Award.

Gallery: 13 Top Safety Picks

To earn a 2007 Top Safety Pick award, a vehicle must earn the best possible rating of "Good" in front and side impact safety as well as in whiplash protection for rear impacts. Previously, a vehicle could earn a Silver Top Safety Pick Award with only an "Acceptable" rating, the second-best possible, for rear impact protection.

Also, vehicles must be available with electronic stability control, at least as an option, to earn the award.

For that reason, five vehicles - the Ford Five Hundred, Mercury Montego, Subaru Impreza, Saab 9-2X and Honda Civic - that won the top award last year were dropped from the list this year.

ESC is available on one version of the Honda Civic, the Civic Si, but that version did not do well enough in whiplash protection to earn top marks.

Electronic stability control, or ESC, helps drivers maintain control during abrupt emergency maneuvers. According to crash statistics gathered by the Insurance Institute and the government's National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, ESC could prevent more than 10,000 deaths annually if it were installed on every vehicle in the U.S.

The Ford Five Hundred and Mercury Montego were the only vehicles from U.S. brands to make the list last year. Both Ford Motor Co. and General Motors are represented on this year's list by their respective Swedish subsidiaries, Volvo and Saab.

Japanese brands Honda and Subaru, a subsidiary of Fuji Heavy Industries, have the most vehicles on the list, with three each. Audi, the luxury division of Volkswagen, has two vehicles on the list and Mercedes-Benz, the luxury division of DaimlerChrysler, has one.

The Insurance Institute's front and side impact tests are different from those performed by the government.

For front impact safety, the Institute uses an "offset" test in which the vehicle strikes a barrier with just part of its front bumper, concentrating impact forces.

In its side impact test, the Institute strikes the vehicle with a moving barrier that is raised off the ground to mimic the impact of an SUV or truck.

Rear impact safety is calculated by, first, measuring various features of the seat and headrest. If those are judged to seem reasonably safe, the seat is then tested using an actual impact test.



ANybody else find this to be BS?
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  #2  
Old 11-23-2006, 01:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjoehandley
Also, vehicles must be available with electronic stability control, at least as an option, to earn the award.
Yes, I do think this is BS. For example, how much is electronic stability going to help you if someone runs the redlight and plows into you from the rear or side?
And yet a cracker box with stability control is supposed to be safer than a more sturdily built vehicle? I don't think so.....
I've gotten to where I take these awards with a grain of salt, it's just another extended commerical, and as completely biased.
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  #3  
Old 11-23-2006, 03:52 PM
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Default Well said Stoga

The IIHS is the most biased "think tank" operation since Ralph Nader. They seem to want cars that do not require driver attention nor common sense. I doubt that any manufacturer pays them much attention, but some of the above mentioned drivers might do so. Give me Detroit iron in any crash, especially Mopar stuff. Best roof structures in the biz.
Ron
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  #4  
Old 11-24-2006, 10:46 AM
bjoehandley bjoehandley is offline
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I have to wonder how much safer we'd actually be if the money spent on safety equipment was used for a good, all emcompasing, nationally set (instead of state by state like right now), drivers ed and re-ed programs as well as funding to atleast initially put the police manpower inplace to inforce the rules of the road that currently exist (speed limits AND minimums, real dangerous driving situations, keep right laws, etc) untill fines can take up the funding slack.
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  #5  
Old 11-24-2006, 03:21 PM
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It would definetly help if we could get people to quit running into each other or off the road!
Personally, I've felt that the failure to pay attention is one of the deadlist sins you can commit while driving.
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Old 11-24-2006, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Stoga View Post
...Personally, I've felt that the failure to pay attention is one of the deadlist sins you can commit while driving.
I agree 100% with this statement.

But, stability is not applicable in a collision situation such as you described. I doubt there will ever be a means to avoid a person running a red light, or stop sign, or just being stupid, short of totally taking the driving responsibility out of the hands of humans.

We've all seen it, drive by wire. There is material handling eguipment that does this, now. They follow a signal, stop when necessary, slow when necessary, turn when the signal demands. I doubt it will happen in our life times, but, I think it will happen, sooner or later.

As far as a safe car, look at the ratings given to cars by the insurance companies. I think that is a better source than some of these studies. My old 92 Crown Victoria was rated an extremely safe vehicle. very low injury and death rates, and it's an inexpensive car, with tons of room, and decent power, for what it is.
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  #7  
Old 11-25-2006, 03:30 AM
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True, but can you take the opposite view like the people sponsoring this award and say that any car that doesn't have it is unsafe?
I feel it's an unfair slam, you notice that most of the cars that have it are luxury cars. This isn't unusual, luxury cars are always the first to get the newest features. So does this mean every economy and middle price ranged vehicle is suddenly unsafe?
I'm for technical innovation as much as any gearhead, but when they turn around and use the lack of it to slam a portion of the market, it becomes more of a marketing scam than anything.
I guess I better NEVER drive my Roadrunner, it has, gasp, shock, DRUM BRAKES!!!!!!!
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  #8  
Old 11-25-2006, 09:32 AM
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I'm for technical innovation as much as any gearhead, but when they turn around and use the lack of it to slam a portion of the market, it becomes more of a marketing scam than anything.
I agree, whole-heartedly.

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I guess I better NEVER drive my Roadrunner, it has, gasp, shock, DRUM BRAKES!!!!!!!
Next time, get a GTX. They have disc brakes in front! My Hemi RR had drum brakes, sometimes in the rain, things got pretty exciting. My GTX did a little better. I always wanted to up grade the Dana to disc brakes, but never did. All in all, the GTX was pretty good in rain and snow for it's time. The bigger issue was controlling the engine's torque in the snow.

I love driving, and I enjoy controlling the car, myself. I'm sure stability control is an excellent way of maintaining something with a high center of gravity, like an suv, or something, and traction control is great for lighter cars on slippery surfaces, and ABS works great in SOME situations. These features are up scale tools right now, but slowly the driver is being taken out of the equasion. The new Lexus can parrallel park it's self, and the big MB will apply brakes if you get too close to the car in front of you...

All very impressive, but I prefer to drive the car myself.
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  #9  
Old 11-25-2006, 11:20 AM
B.Tallent B.Tallent is offline
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you (older) drivers still remember how it was in the OLD days with too much torque(as in Mopar) in the snow and ice. boy did I have fun learning to handle my 340 duster in winter driving. never wreaked in winter but had a problem getting anywhere and then didnt want to get going too fast for fear of not being able to stop soon enough. I sure miss those simpler times the problem now as I see it is the new drivers havent a clue how to drive ,how to be responsible or anything else( the gov'mnt has turned us stupid).with front wheel drive vehicles on the road, the old rear drive handling methods have been forgotten and these (kids) need all the help they can get. we older types have a problem allowing some(electronic gadgetry)new technology to keep us out of trouble. plus its not as fun trying to get sideways and your car fighting you to straighten it all out .but I do agree that esc,tc,etc; has no bearing on impact safety
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  #10  
Old 11-25-2006, 02:41 PM
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Next time, get a GTX. They have disc brakes in front!
Ahh, that'd be great, then I'd have a GTX and a Roadrunner!
I'm going to leave the drum brakes in place while I'm going thru the rest of the car, but I'm hopeful in the future to upgrade to discs with a Master Power Brakes kit or something similar. I figure once I remove the original 383 and stash it, it'll need more stopping power for the 440 or 451 I plan to install later.
It's got alot of work though before I get to that point, hoping to have it to the frame shop FINALLY next year, had a few family occasions that ate my frame shop money this year,lol!
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  #11  
Old 11-26-2006, 12:17 PM
bjoehandley bjoehandley is offline
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Pft, front Drum brakes come on Stoga! I'm still running archaic solid front and rear axles on my truck as well as drums and leaves in the back while using 75 series off road tires on 15" rims (and still have managed to put the hurt on a few 4 wheel independent cars and trucks on twisty roads )
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  #12  
Old 11-26-2006, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by bjoehandley View Post
Pft, front Drum brakes come on Stoga! I'm still running archaic solid front and rear axles on my truck as well as drums and leaves in the back while using 75 series off road tires on 15" rims (and still have managed to put the hurt on a few 4 wheel independent cars and trucks on twisty roads )
You haven't seen how the deer like to jump out in the road in West Virginia. I did $1400 damage to my Breeze back in 97 and the front of my old beater van looks like it went a couple of rounds with George Foreman right in the grille!
That don't count the banged up side of my old 89 Dodge truck I traded in, the stupid deer accelerated right into the side when it couldn't jump in front of my bumper!!!

I can see me coming home late after a cruise on a WV backroad, I'll have some money tied up in the bodywork on the Roadrunner, don't care to do it twice! :cryihg:
I'll probably keep the drums for a bit, they'll be ok for nights at the dragstrip or cruising around town during the day. But I want maximum stopping power before I have to deal with the Walking Stupidity at night again!
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  #13  
Old 11-27-2006, 07:59 AM
moparman92 moparman92 is offline
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i hate stability control so much! Me and my dad was board one day and we could actuly recover from a skid better in a older can than a new one with stability controll!!
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  #14  
Old 11-27-2006, 08:02 AM
moparman92 moparman92 is offline
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Originally Posted by B.Tallent View Post
you (older) drivers still remember how it was in the OLD days with too much torque(as in Mopar) in the snow and ice. boy did I have fun learning to handle my 340 duster in winter driving. never wreaked in winter but had a problem getting anywhere and then didnt want to get going too fast for fear of not being able to stop soon enough. I sure miss those simpler times the problem now as I see it is the new drivers havent a clue how to drive ,how to be responsible or anything else( the gov'mnt has turned us stupid).with front wheel drive vehicles on the road, the old rear drive handling methods have been forgotten and these (kids) need all the help they can get. we older types have a problem allowing some(electronic gadgetry)new technology to keep us out of trouble. plus its not as fun trying to get sideways and your car fighting you to straighten it all out .but I do agree that esc,tc,etc; has no bearing on impact safety

ima a kid and i havnt forgoten the rear wheel drive ways.
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  #15  
Old 11-27-2006, 05:03 PM
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i hate stability control so much! Me and my dad was board one day and we could actuly recover from a skid better in a older can than a new one with stability controll!!
With a bit of practice, anyone can. The problem is that no state in the U.S. actually requires any training in emergency maneuvers to get a license. One reason why flying is so much safer per mile that driving is that all pilots are required to have such training. But it would be political suicide for any lawmaker to even propose a requirement that might prevent some people from getting a drivers license. So, instead they pass "Nanny" laws that take away more and more of your personal responsibility, and make the manufacturers responsible for your safety with added features on the vehicles that add cost, and only sometimes do what they're supposed to do. Then, if (or rather WHEN) they fail, now there's a big liability lawsuit against the manufacturer because their product somehow was to blame for some idiot's negligence. And the juries are all too willing to go along with the game, because of course we don't want to admit that maybe WE might actually be responsible for whatever bad things happen to us in life!

Okay, someday I'll tell you how I really feel!
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  #16  
Old 11-27-2006, 05:41 PM
moparman92 moparman92 is offline
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yeah its like that new car that parks its self that will probably fail one day while somone is running 90-100mph down the interstate and kill a few people where as if they were just running the speed they would either not wreck or just kill themselves
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Old 11-27-2006, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by moparman92 View Post
i hate stability control so much! Me and my dad was board one day and we could actuly recover from a skid better in a older can than a new one with stability controll!!
Stability control is not just skid control. In fact, skid control is incorporated in the system but usually doesn't play a huge role.

I question your statement (BTW, I am sure you were bored, not board) as follows:

What was your standard? Did you have access to a new vehicle with stability control? How many tests did you perform? Finally, how can you hate something so much at such a young age?

Here is a fairly decent explanation of the process of stability control. Good read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro...bility_Control
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  #18  
Old 11-27-2006, 08:45 PM
bjoehandley bjoehandley is offline
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I was talking to a salesman at a local Lexus dealer, they just had some guy trade in a 740 BMW coupe or convertable with 1300 miles (yes you are reading that right!) on the clock for one of those new LS sedans! The loss he took on it was way too damn close to what I make in a year!!!!!

I'm waiting for a few of these drive by wire systems to go haywire and cause major incidents on the roadways some day myself. I got pretty lucky with my little Cherokee, the only "safety" feature it has is airbags, and I'm not too sure if I really want them or the weight and complexity they add to the truck. I think if I were the one injured or lost a family member because of one of these "safety" features I'd find out who pushed for it and sue the pants off of them instead since they were the ones that wanted to make them law.
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Old 11-27-2006, 10:11 PM
moparman92 moparman92 is offline
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Originally Posted by Dick View Post
Stability control is not just skid control. In fact, skid control is incorporated in the system but usually doesn't play a huge role.

I question your statement (BTW, I am sure you were bored, not board) as follows:

What was your standard? Did you have access to a new vehicle with stability control? How many tests did you perform? Finally, how can you hate something so much at such a young age?

Here is a fairly decent explanation of the process of stability control. Good read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro...bility_Control

im still trying to find out why you hate me so much.
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Old 11-27-2006, 11:01 PM
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im still trying to find out why you hate me so much.
I certainly do not hate you or anyone else on this board. I am just asking for clarification regarding your statements. I am sorry if you are uncomfortable with my questions.
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Old 11-27-2006, 11:06 PM
moparman92 moparman92 is offline
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It just seems like every time i say somthing on here you the first one to shoot it down. I may leave for a while this forum isnt what it used to be.
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Old 11-27-2006, 11:07 PM
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It just seems like every time i say somthing on here you the first one to shoot it down. I may leave for a while this forum isnt what it used to be.
Before you go, will you answer my questions?
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