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  #1  
Old 02-05-2000, 11:59 PM
MopART MopART is offline
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Do you have any insight on my idea of putting fuel injection from a '92 or later V-8 onto my '71 340 ? Seems like you have some experience with the ins and outs of the EFI from cues I've taken off other posts. Have you or do you know someone that can make this stock system support more hp - like say 600 hp ?

......Don't tell me I'm crazy .......

Thanks
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  #2  
Old 02-06-2000, 03:52 AM
Elwenil Elwenil is offline
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Hey MopART,
Yeah, I've looked into it a bit. A 750 Holley just ins't the ideal set up for a my Charger handling project. To be honest, the least costly solution I have found is the Holley Projection. The 4 Di systems seem to be the only way to go, but even they have a ton of problems. The main problem I have seen with EFI swaps is everyone wants to use EFI for better drivability and better MPG. Drivability is a go, but performance and MPG are just not part of the deal. I just want to be able to hang a tight turn without my floats going haywire. So, EFI it is. The popular of using the factory EFI is a good one on the surface. When you think that if you swap in all the electronics and so forth, you will have a factory EFI set up that should be reliable after the bugs are worked out. Then you start looking at all that swap entails. I'm worried about factory EFI that uses two oxygen sensors. One before, and one after the cat. Would you have to run a cat on a muscle car to keep from getting a lean mixture? Can the second sensor be eliminated? These are things you have to look at. Mechanically, the swap is easy except for the wiring. Then you have to keep it working. I wouldn't even attempt it unless I had a Ram truck or something similar with the same EFI set up near by to test against. Not to mention all the expensive code scanners and so forth you would need to see what the module is thinking. Remember, you aren't even going to have the engine warning lamp in your dash to warn you of error codes. This is where I start to get a headache thinking about it. It's the little things that trip you up. If you want to swap a 360 Magnum and it's matching EFI and module into an older car then you could do this ok. It's when you start making changes that screws it up. The factory EFI set up is made for emissions and MPG. It simply just isn't adjustable enough to modify the engine the way we are use to. Think of it as having you own private NASCAR official in your engine bay, telling you what you can get away with and what you can't. Ok, then lets take the Magnum R/T setups. Now if you got a 360 Magnum out of a late model Ram that the R/T package is compatible with, then swap it ALL in say a A or E body with the right gears. You would have a hot little screamer. But it still wouldn't compare to the guy next to you with the mild 383, who may actually have just as bad of MPG as you, and still be able to up his power to ridiculous limits. In other words, the factory setup in my mind is just to restrictive for the hassle. Another thing is the ignition system. The computer can only change the timing so much because of it's emissions parameters. If you want a mild streetable hotrod with modern reliability, ok. If you want adjustable power and MPG, no. Ok, then we have the wide range of other aftermarket EFI systems. The Projection is TBI system, and really is nothing more than a glorified carburator. BUT, it is the only "affordable" EFI setup out there. I should say the most affordable set up, since a lot of people don't want to pay $1000+ for EFI no matter what the hell it's good for. Not when tried and true Holley carbs are in the $300 range and 750 vacuum secondary carbs can be had for $50 at a swap meet and then a $30 kit later, you have a good carb. In my mind, Rance FI seems to be the best set up for the street/mild race cars. It's expensive as hell, but Rance seems to be able to build the system for damn near anything you want. To me the whole point of EFI is precision. A more accurate air/fuel ratio, and no carb laziness. This is really the reason I want to swap over to it. I'm not sure I am really going to do it, but if I do, I would want someone use to custom applications to help me. Rance seems to be able to do this. Projection is mass produced, so the best you will get is a tech service line that has the answers to the popular questions. God help you if have a new problem or something went wrong. With the factory EFI, who would help you? Chrysler would probably cough up a lung if you tried to get help from them. A dealer? Most dealers don't want to touch anything "modified". To many variables, and to much to go wrong that they could get sued for. You would have to have someone like a Master Tech technician that knows the new EFI, OBD, and EFI theory really well to help you. If this is you, go for it. If it ain't, go back to the "God help you" line from above. There are of course, other options. The GM EFI setup questions about made me choke, but it is a good idea. I kind of think about it in the terms of swapping a Lazy Boy in place of your front bucket seat. Yeah, it works, but it just don't look right. I must admit that the Rance fuel rails look a lot like GM stuff, so maybe it's a design worth copying. Motec also has their custom EFI controllers that are pretty much limitless. I shudder to think what the average mechanic would have to fab to make all that work. Those are basically racing systems, and while almost completely adjustable, where would you begin? The injectors? Fuel rails? Throttle body? Horsepower? I wouldn't go this route unless you are, or are really good friends with someone who has dealt with a racing EFI system. Since none of my friends or relatives have been on any 24 Hours At Lemans pit crews, I doubt I will be going that full custom route.
Bottom line is this. If you really want EFI, get it set in your mind what you want and what you expect. Also get an idea of how much you want to spend on such a setup including tuning and extras. Then research all the options to find what suits you best. If at some point you find that nothing will give you what you want for the right price, be glad you looked around first. It would really suck if you bought a complete wrecked Ram only to find out that you had no use for it. An EFI setup might look really kewl under the hood compared to the next guys average carb, but if you car sets in the garage for two years without running right, and you get frustrated and give up, you would have been better off with a carb. Think it out, and good luck!

Geez, what a long post...

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~Elwenil~ ~.\|/.~
Elwenil.cjb.net
DodgeChargerSE@aol.com
72 Charger SE
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  #3  
Old 02-06-2000, 02:38 PM
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ehostler ehostler is offline
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Any thought about the Edlebrock Multiport FI? Currently it is only available for the SB shitvy, however, with enogh requests I am sure they would start making it for the MOPARs as well.
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/mpfi_proflo.html


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'96 Dodge Ram 1500 SLT CC 360 4X4
'68 Charger 383-4
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  #4  
Old 02-06-2000, 05:13 PM
MopART@hm MopART@hm is offline
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Elwenil,

I got everything you said and that's kinda what's been holding me up. The general consesus is that:

1. The factory Mopar EFI intake is only good for about 300hp and 5500 rpm.

2. The Mopar computer hasn't been succesfully modified for reliabilty and accuracy to support allot of hp.

3. I'm gonna need at least 1000cfm throttle body.

4 I'll need bigger injectors.

Considering all this, it would be foolish for me to buy the OE EFI now. The only thing I would be able to use would be the fuel rails and the wiring(maybe).

Rance does have some cool stuff and I sent them a message the other day and got my rely this morning. This is how it went. Rance's reply is in caps.

Rance
mailto:info@rancefi.com http://www.rancefi.com/

Hey Guys,

Cool web site ! I was directed to you by the guys on Moparchat.com in
hopes you could point me in the right direction. I'm considering installing
a '92 or '93 Mopar multi-point fuel injection onto a '71 Dodge 340.
However, I'm not too sure what issues I will face just bolting it up to the
#587 heads on the motor. Further, this system will need to support 600+ hp
considering the use of nitrous.(NITROUS IS NO PROBLEM, WE CAN TURN IT IN
WSITH THE COMPUTER AND ADD FUEL TO THE INJECTORS, AND RETARD THE TIMING.)
(RICK EHRENBERG TELLS ME THE STOCK MANIFOLD COMBO IS GOOD FOR 300 HP AND
THAT IS IT)

Can you provide me with upgrades for the stock system?(NO)

If so what are they and is there a package available for this ?

What advice can you give me for the installation ? (GO WITH AN AFTERMATKET
MANIFOLD AND AFTERMARKET INJECTION FOR THE BEST RESULTS AND ABILITY TO TUNE)

WE WOULD BE GLAD TO SO A SYSTEM FOR YOU. IF YOU LOOK ON LUR PAGE, YOU WILL
SEE UNDER MOPAR, THE CONVERSION UP TO 450 HO IS 2950.00 AND THERE ARE SOME
OPTIONS FOR YOU TO CONSIDER..

Thanks,

Robby Tonos
Greenville MS



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  #5  
Old 02-06-2000, 10:21 PM
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kpzbee kpzbee is offline
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Elwenil, That has to the the best reply I've ever seen to that question!! And if anyone is thinking to do such a swap, I would suggust useing pre 96 stuff so you dont have to deal with OBD2 stuff. MOPART you mentioned about useing 582 heads, you would have to use Magnum heads since they bolt on the intake in a different way. You are right, the stock setup will not cut it for that much HP. If you can scrape up the $$ the Rance FI is THE way to go! Good Luck!

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  #6  
Old 02-07-2000, 12:33 AM
Elwenil Elwenil is offline
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Hey thanks for the kind words, kpzbee!
MopART, Rance's reply is not as bad as I thought. $3K is a lot of cash, but I was thinking more in the $4K range, so whoo hoo! As for the Magnum manifolds, since they are the same size, shape, and configuration, I don't think it would be impossible to drill the manifold bolt holes at the right angle to be able to bolt them up. It may take a little welding to build up the material so that you have enough to work with, but it could be done. Ok, along that line of thinking, wouldn't it be easier to use one of the many after market aluminum manifolds that are already made for the LA engines? True, they aren't set up for EFI, but it is a simple matter to drill and tap a manifold for the injectors. The Magnum heads are what flow so much, not the intake. A swap to Magnum heads could be concidered, but as the owner of a Magnum engine, I would wait for the aftermarket to catch on to the Magnum heads. No one but Mopar really makes any performance parts for the Magnums. I think the Magnum design will be a big thing in the future, but until more people have them, no aftermarket company is going to produce much for them if there is no market to warrant it. Also, check out the pic of the engine in the 70 Hemi `Cuda in the March 2000 issue of Mopar Muscle. Rance did that EFI system and modified the Indy intake for it. Boy, does it look sweet.

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  #7  
Old 02-07-2000, 02:27 AM
MopART@hm MopART@hm is offline
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Elwenil,

The least of my worries was mounting the EFI intake to my heads. My only concern there was if EFI intake was delete of water passages, consequently causing problems with water flow. Since I don't have an engine with this set up on it, I don't even know where the water neck is - in the water pump or intake.
Anyway, there are all sorts of ways to make this work. At present I would need an aftermarket intake w/ nitrous bosses to accept the injectors and an aftermarket computer too. So when you think about the way the system will have to be put togehter with parts and pieces, the $3000.00 for Rance's system doesn't look too bad. At least if there is a problem they can help b/c they know what it is. The extra money spent would be worth it considering the CHAOS I would have with a jumbled system.

I'll keep investigating the possiblity and consider spending the $$$$$$$ for the aftermarket system, but I just can't justify spending the money especially since I only drive this car maybe one day a week and sometimes every week or two. So for now, I'll just stick to the 850 cfm Demon. And you're right, in time the Magnums will be less expensive and more aftermarket parts avaliable too. Maybe the EFIs will make the same evolution -- only time will tell.

Thanks for all the help. At least now I know what I'm looking at.
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