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  #1  
Old 10-31-2007, 10:02 AM
67RSSS 67RSSS is offline
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Default Broken Lifters...

Okay Gents, I need to figure out why there are three broken lifters in this engine. It is a 1970 340, and has been sitting for over 10 years after a bad "rebuild". Owner remembers paying for a new cam and lifters during the rebuild (about 1992). Lifters are not scuffed on the faces, and cam is still nice and shiny. Intake manifold is still on the car, but turns out you can remove lifters through some of the drainback holes. Been slowly getting this together, and fired it the other day. Lots of backfiring through carb, and a weird pingy sound from pass side. The #6E lifter was shattered, the cup had come off, and the pushrod was dwon inside the lifter. The exhaust vavle not opening explains the backfiring issue.

The #3I and #4I lifters are also damaged (not as severe). I am getting new lifters in today, but really would like to know what happened and why. I have a few guesses, and have worked it out in m mind a dozen times, but would like to get opinions from people that know the Mopar engines.

Also, with these being hydraulic lifters, but having no lash adjustment, how cn I tell if we are getting sufficient pre-load? SHould I install the lifters dry and then pump them up, or soak them overnight in oil and install? I don't want to bend any pushrods (though they are obviously tough, as we didn't bend any so far).

The engine was HORRIBLY miss-timed and over carbed before I started working on it, and may have been run this way (approx 38* advanced BASE timing). Distributor gear was mis-installed and the timing could not be set any closer. I wonder if that has something to do with the issue as the #6E (and its I) would still be off the seat while the #4I and #3I are off seat. I do not think it was run long this way, but owner tried to start car after it sat for so long earlier this summer. Engine was not pre-oiled.

Okay guys, wow me with wisdom!!!!!!!
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  #2  
Old 10-31-2007, 10:24 AM
peg leg peg leg is offline
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Default Yikes

Good grief what a shame. I'm guessing that the horrible timing issue and no pre-oiling caused the lifter flop by firing on a partially open valve(S). I'd sure replace the pushrods though. The lifter ends can't be too healthy after Jamming into the lifters guts. I'm also thinking they may be the improper length, what with all the other screwups on that poor engine.
It might have come with solid lifters, and changed to hydros, too.
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  #3  
Old 10-31-2007, 10:32 AM
67RSSS 67RSSS is offline
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If it was my engine, I would pull it and completely rebuild it. It isn't, I am just the friendly neighbor that works on cars. I have another question that is bugging me,

how does the valvetrain get oiled? I can see the galley for filling the lifters and lubricating the pushrod ball. On the hollow rockershaft, there are holes inside each rocker fulcrum, and the shaft has end caps. How does the oil get in there? There are holes for oiling the pushrods at the tips, but I see nothing about oiling the valvespring and rocker to valve tip. Does the oil come up through the pedastals that the shaft is bolted to? If so, how? Just curious about this part, since the pushrods don't have an oil passage running through them like a SBC does.
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  #4  
Old 10-31-2007, 01:00 PM
cudacarl cudacarl is offline
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The pushrods are solid no oil pasage. On the cylinder heads, you will see a hole on one end i want to say the left. The rocker shaft needs it's oiling hole pointed down over the hole on the cylinder head. Thats how it gets oiled.
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  #5  
Old 10-31-2007, 03:03 PM
dirttrackracer dirttrackracer is offline
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The top of the lifter broke off? Bent pushrods from over rev or to much valve lift (coil bind) (valve to piston clearance).Pervious owner may have replaced bent rods and then gave up on project? If those things are not known you need to find out or you will likely have a reocurance of the problem.
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  #6  
Old 10-31-2007, 03:31 PM
67RSSS 67RSSS is offline
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A little history ( I get more of it almost everyday), when the owner moved from CA to MN in 91, she noticed it ran weak. She decided to have a freind of a freind rebuild the engine. At that point, the 4 speed dissapeared, the doorpanels and a few other bits. An A727 was installed, and a carb from a 440. When she finally got the car back, it didn't run well at all (and had no kickdown linkage either!). The guy had skipped town.

It sat in her garage for over 10yrs, before she had anyone look at it (another friend). I believe this is when a lot more damage was done. They got it to fire on carb cleaner, and the engine raced to the moon. It shut down after a few really loud noises, and she parked it again. She asked this summer if we would look at it, and we imediately chagned the water pump (front bearing crashed), and kinda got it to fire, but not very well. It made a horrendous noise (flex plate missing a bolt), and backfired a lot. Fixed the flex plate, noticed the lack of kickdwon linkage, and got a choke for it. Decided to replace carb with soemthing more appropriate. Still wokring on that, so have an Edelbrock 1406 sitting on the intake for now. No linkage, just a few springs to keep the kickdwon pulled and the throttle closed. Noted that the distributor gear was in wrong, fixed that, and set timing against the timing mark to give me roughly 0 to 5* BTDC. Changed fuel pump, and got the motor to fire agian (it was at 5* BTDC). Still got a lot of backfire through carb. THought maybe a bad valve, so pulled valvecovers. Noted that the #6E pushrod wasn't touching the rocker. Knew something was bad at this point. Note that at this point in time, engine has less than an hour of run time in 15 years! Lot of signs of oil starvation due to a lot of time to drain. As the story gets fleshed in more and more, I feel very sorry for this engine.

The best I can come up with on the damaged lifters is as follows. When engine last turned off, the #6E was high on the ramp, while #4I and #3I where also on the ramp. Over time, this caused the valvespring to push the oil out of the lifters (lots of time for it) draining them. When they decided to try to start it again, the engine was not pre-oiled. Just squirted some carb cleaner and turned it over. The engine raced above 4K before they got it shut off. Without time to pump the lifter up, I think this gave the pushrod a chance to slide against the outside housing of the lifter top edge. This broke the lifter (but not the pushrod??????). WIth those three stressed, engine immediately developed a backfire, which her freind tried to eliminate by fiddling with the distributor (which was installed wrong anyway). Base timing was at 38*!!!!! This hid some of the impact of this damage, but there was still backfire through the carb (#6E valve not opening). The other two damaged lifters where still working, and I would not have known they were damaged had I not fished them out.

This is the only scenario I can work out. None of th elifters are galled, worn, or damaged in any other way. The cam still looks new (and the good lifters look new as well. We have 16 new lifters coming in this afternoon. Rolling the pushrods shows them to still be good. The rockers have some rust on the top edges, but not on the faces that matter. Oil passages all are clear. I would like to re-goop up the cam (through the lifter bores) and fish the new lifters back in. There is no way to adjust them, so I am worried about the pre-load. Here is the magic question:

Do I install the new lifter empty, or soak them in oil first?

I have never installed a lifter dry in my life, but have seen references to both situations on the internet with the small block Mopars. There is still along way to go before this car is fully back to life, but getting the engine running would definately help in identifying what other problems it has.
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  #7  
Old 10-31-2007, 05:59 PM
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pishta pishta is offline
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Before lowering the new lifters into their bores through the heads (been there) I would remove the rockers and make sure you have plugs in both ends of the rocker shafts and that the holes are all clear, remember the rockers oil from the bottom grooves or holes on the shaft, There is a notch on the end of the rocker shaft and that needs to point down the end closest to the oiling rocker pedestal. Preload is important but remember the lifters usually are compressed a small amount by a fully closed valve. If the cam is a solid, there may be a smaller base circle than the lifters can make up for, get adjustables. small price to pay for peace of mind. I would also install the rocker shaft alone and use a manual valve compressor against the rocker shaft to see if any of the valves are binding. You can check the coil bind with this tool and a machinist dial indicator. How was the 440 carb bad? Doesnt really matter what model specific carb you have on it, itll idle, they all meter fuel to approx. 13:1. MAke sure your plug wires are on correct, if the dude put the timing gear on wrong, you can bet the plug wires are on going the opposite direction. He takes the 4 speed and inner door panels but leaves a 340 behind, true moron...
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Old 10-31-2007, 10:11 PM
67RSSS 67RSSS is offline
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The 440 Carb used (off a 71' AVS 4740) had the larger primaries. They used a HUGE gasket to allow the primaries to open. Since the cam wasn't any larger than stock, this killed the intake charge velocity at off idle and heavy load conditions. Too much carb for the application. Oh, and the jet and rods were nasty with rot, and the primary throttle shaft was warped, and the idle compensator was bent, and the acc. pump check valve was missing..... it was not a good carb. Just noted that you live by the hangers. Was stationed at Tustin many moons ago.... Oh, and I have built a many SBC, a few BBC and 2 F&rd 390's, but never messed with a Mopar in my life.

Now for the post in my other thread. I will go back to my long saga in the old car section for further advice on getting this car out of my garage!

__________________________________________________ _______________
Okay, now remember that I have an Edelbrock 1406 sitting on it for the moment (no linkage, just some spring holding things and a wire to the battery for the choke). Also remember that this engine sat for over 10 years. Then, take into account that I just fished new oil-soaked lifter through the oil drain windows with my trusty magnet on a stick and got them in without pulling the intake (mostly to see if I could do it!). Remember that I know NOTHING about Chrysler engines...
__________________________________________________ ______________

IT RUNS!!!!!!!!!!!

__________________________________________________ ______________

Sorry about the drama, just feel good about it! It fired right off, and was holding about 22* advance at around 2000-2500 rpm (kept turning the idle screw in and out to break in the lifters). It took about 10 min. for the lifters to pump up (boy were they noisy!). Once it had run for 20 minutes, it was running MUCH better, so I decided to try getting it down to an idle. No go there, carb isn't set-up for this motor, and didn't feel like messing with it. Did not have the vacuum advance hooked up on the dizzy, just played with it a bit and found that at about 1500rpm, I could get it happy at about 15*. I think this thing is going to work out. Gotta change the oil and filter again, and get off my butt and build the carb for it. Then we will be able to get it tuned (shooting for 0* base timing at approx 800rpm as has been recomended). There was a LOT of smoke as it burned off the WD-40 I had sprayed in the cylinders last month. Set off the fire alarm in the garage... the Dogs loved that.

After it had warmed up good, turned it off for 30 minutes to cool. It didn't want to start right away (there was fuel percolation, using a paper thin gasket), but once it did, it ran just as nicely. There is a Mopar guy in town that I may drop by to see if he would help with the final tune once we get the carb built. I just have this nigling devil on my shoulder telling me I don't know anything about Mopars...

The owner brought over some paperwork she had and an old photo album from the 80's. One doc I noticed right away was the build sheet. The other thing I noticed was the cool pictures of her at Glendora Raceway in CA with the car. Really sets the provenance to the history of this car. She doesn't recall exactly (it was over 20 years ago), but looking at the bracket times on the windows of the cars she was running against, it looks like this was a solid 12 second car. I will try to scan a few of those pics and get them up, they are really cool. Thanks for the help so far, sure there are more questions to come.....
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  #9  
Old 11-07-2007, 07:24 PM
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MiMAX MiMAX is offline
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Default bad oil

I too,had some BAD LUCK,my cam wiped some lobes and some of the springs lost tension. Anyway, called Mancini Racing to order a new cam and lifters and springs. Mancini asked why I was changing the cam,so I told him what happened, He told me that ALL if the cam manufacturer were having these kind of problems. I asked what was causing it ,he said that the oil companies had remove zinc and phosphorus from the oils for the fuel injected cars. So the answer is bad oil. What you need to do is to switch to synthetic or put in some additives. I showed my broken lifters at a car show and found at least 6 other people that had everything from broken valve springs ,rockers,dist shafts,lifters,.So for me when I get mine back to gether it will have synthetic oil. Good Luck Also this story I am telling you also is on the net.
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Old 11-07-2007, 10:19 PM
RacerHog RacerHog is offline
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67,
When are you posting the pic????

Glad to here things are comming around.

You are a kind harted sole to help out with all that time...

My hat is off to you....Would like to see those pics i only live about 10 miles from where that old pic was taken.....

Keep us posted on how thing are comming. and how its running

Post some pics.

RacerHog
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  #11  
Old 11-07-2007, 10:27 PM
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Hmm, a guy I know from another forum was telling me to run Valvoline conventional 10W-30 in my '70 318. So far the only thing I've noticed is a light ticking sound on both sides of the engine, but nothing severe. I think it's from my mom starting it cold and letting it idle for 15 minutes while she got ready for work the past week . I gave her a big lecture about how old engines have flat tappets that will wear down if the engine idles for a long time. Should I be running additives too?
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  #12  
Old 11-08-2007, 01:34 AM
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pishta pishta is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 67RSSS View Post
Just noted that you live by the hangers. Was stationed at Tustin many moons ago....
Remember the East Hanger, E-W orientation? There is a Huge shopping center running from the hanger south to the main street Barranca, East to Jamboree. They cant touch the Hangars, but they sure are building that entire corner up to be a major million square foot shopping complex. I always knew it was the junk oil, it was the only common thing to all the lifter woes.
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Old 11-12-2007, 06:26 PM
70Ted 70Ted is offline
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YOU CAN'T assume synethic oil will have the additives a flat tappet cam needs


Quote:
Originally Posted by MiMAX View Post
I too,had some BAD LUCK,my cam wiped some lobes and some of the springs lost tension. Anyway, called Mancini Racing to order a new cam and lifters and springs. Mancini asked why I was changing the cam,so I told him what happened, He told me that ALL if the cam manufacturer were having these kind of problems. I asked what was causing it ,he said that the oil companies had remove zinc and phosphorus from the oils for the fuel injected cars. So the answer is bad oil. What you need to do is to switch to synthetic or put in some additives. I showed my broken lifters at a car show and found at least 6 other people that had everything from broken valve springs ,rockers,dist shafts,lifters,.So for me when I get mine back to gether it will have synthetic oil. Good Luck Also this story I am telling you also is on the net.
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