Go ahead and flame me, but I need some advise.

[rampage_82]

Ok the first thing you guys need to realize, I'm trying to play on a cop's salary, so bear with me. This is going to be kinda long and drawn out.

As you can see in my avitar, I mud race. Two years ago I built the motor in this truck, and I think I screwed up in several ways, but I want to know what my worst mistake was, so I don't do it again. Now everybody else who mud races runs Chebbys, and that is their answer to all of my problems. I know it's BS, cause a motor doesn't care what label is on the valve cover, they all apply to the same rules of physics. And maybe you guys can help me.

Now to race in my class, I have to run factory head castings (I.E. OEM only. No Stage V's even though they are cast iron etc.) So I had Dan Dvorak build me a set of 906's with the large valves 2.14 in 1.81 ex. He performed his "super port flow" and his black magic whatever else he does. I.E cost me $1400.

I then had a 72 440 block machined. (Magnufluxed, Sonic Checked, Decked, Line Bored, Squared, Bored, matched to pistons ect.) The pistons were the Speed-Pro forged #TRW-L2295F30, I had them on the 6 pack rods, with a factory steel crank.

I first ran a Comp Cams 292 (.244 dur @.050, w/.501 lift). This POS didn't even make it through cam break-in. I then ran a Comp 280 (.230 dur @.050 w/.480 lift) I was able to run about a year on it before it rounded. I then switched to a Lunati 292 (.236 dur@.050, w/.050 lift). It was holding up perfectly, till the motor quit.

Other specs include a Edelbrock TorkerII intake, a Predator Carb, and MSD 6a ignition.

Now the first year I ran it, it sounded atrocious, at low rpms but it did wonderful if you could ever get it over 5500. The final race of the year, the truck freakin screamed, I out ran trucks in the class above me (and they are allowed gutting bodies, paddle tires, and nitrous). During the run I tacked out the motor (Tachometer goes to 8,000, and it was bouncing off the peg, furthermore the truck was in the air more than it was in the mud) but after the run was done the motor was running terrible, and that was when the major problems started.

After that it made this horrible noise, which I could only compare to detonation, however there were no signs of detonation. The motor would fire up and run perfectly when it was cold, but when it came up to operating temperature, it would act like it was fighting itself just to run. If you would put it under anykind of load, it would be the most gutless thing you've ever seen. And trying to start it at operating temp, sheesh forget that, you'd have to wait for about an hour.

The next spring I tore into the motor, and found second Comp Cam had rounded. I then switched to a Lunati. I also discovered that I had the cam timing off by a tooth (retarted) so I fixed those problems. And fired it up again, did cam breakin again, checked everything and it was holding up great. This time it sounded wonderful at all rpm ranges. However the seizing problem was still persistent. Nothing I could do would help this. Also the detonation noise was still there. It was worse when the motor was cold, and went mostly away when it was warm. Well the next bog I raced at looked promising, the truck was running perfectly (when cold, but whatever right?) Well the motor got warm while staging and then died, and I couldn't get it started again so I had to forfeit the first run. The second run I made it to the line. Got the green light, and the truck freakin launched hard, and the rpm's came up to about 5,000, and I went to shift to 2nd, and the truck started loosing rpms. I saw the oil pressure dropping, and it stalled.

The damn thing wouldn't crank over, and acted like it was completely seized. We pulled it to our pit, and worked for hours that night trying to get it to start or spin over even. We had a 1/2 in breaker bar on the Harmonic Balancer, and it wouldn't budge. After about 4 hours, it cooled off, and fired right up again. Well when I got it to my shop again, I pulled the plugs, which showed no signs of detonation. 6 of the plugs looked perfectly they were #'s 1,2,3,4,5,&7. #'6 & 8, looked like they hadn't fired in a while. I ran a compression check, and every cylinder was between 165 and 170 lbs. I pulled the valve cover, and everything was fine on the valvetrain. There also wasn't any problems in the ignition, that I could find.

Everybody was telling me how bad the Bosch Platinum plugs were, so I thought they were the problem, so I switched to the Copper Autolites. This didn't make any improvement. I went out still trying to tune, i put mufflers on it, so I could hear the motor. I hammered down, just like a mud run would be. The rpms came up to about 4500, the oil pressure dropped again, and it just died. I almost got it to start back up, but it wouldn't. I let it cool off, and this time this sucker is seized.

So here are the theories that I have been given by the other mud racers.

1: My rotating assembly was too heavy (I.E. Speed-Pro pistons + 6 pack rods = bad combo for racing applications) , and I over-revved it and screwed up the bearings.

2: I was running crappy oil, with too loose tolerances. (Rotella 15W-40W Diesel Oil)

3: I'm running Mopar

4: I was using the stock 3/8" oil pickup, and I starved it for oil.

5: The machine shop missed a bent connecting rod.

6: The flat camshafts ate the bearings.

7: All of the above.

If you guys can think of anything else that I did wrong, or anything else it could have been, tell me. I want to chalk this one up to a learning experience, even though it makes me sick thinking about it.

[cageman]

I am going to say the metal from the cams ate the bearings, and the crank is really screwed up now, disasembly is a must, all we can do is guess, it sure isnt good, and it isnt going to get better, before a rod lets loose and ruins it all, tear it down, go from there.

[Ray Bell]

When you rebuild, have a serious look at some Schubeck lifters... the ones that are made from Kryptonite or whatever it is, they cost about $550 but cut out a lot of wear issues.

[rampage_82]

yeah, well I don't have to worry about a rod letting loose, there is absolutely no way to get it to turn over, I know that the crank and probably rods are thrashed. I am thinking that the Heads and Block are fine, and if that's the case I'm going to stroke it == 496. However I don't want to screw up building it again. What is the opinion here about the 1/2" oil pump pickups vs the standard 3/8". There are a lot of guys who have thought this was the problem.

As far as the camshaft wearing issues, IDK WTF happened there. All I know is I did cam breakin exactly the same on all of them, and both Comps went south and the Lunati worked like a champ.... However on the Stroker I'm going to build, I'm going with a Hughes Solid.... Tired of the Hyd. BS....

[rampage_82]

Oh and another thing. I know my factory castings aren't the best heads, but they're the best that I can run.... Will these flow enough for a 496, (this time I will have a Mallory Hyfire with the rev limiter set at about 6,000). I don't think I need rev the holy hell out of it, the only reason I did last time, was because the tires were in the air instead of the mud, and I didn't have a rev limiter.


Oh and I know that my rotating assembly was really heavy, but can you hammer the bearings out of it, in four seconds?

[MOPEkid]

That's a shame you're having all these problems. Not that it's really your fault, but if the motor had really been built properly in the first place it would have outlasted any Chebbie truck out there. I think you should run lighter rods (a good modern design from a reputable aftermarket company, I can't really think of any at the time), and maybe try a Hughes Engines cam (they only build cams specifically designed for Chrysler engines) and those Schubeck lifters Ray Bell mentioned. Try lightening the valvetrain a bit too, it might help give some extra insurance in case you over-rev the engine again. Bottom line is, don't skimp on critical parts to save some money. That may not have been your original intention, but for any engine running under these conditions you should really spend the extra money on good high-stress components.

edit: Just read your posts, that's also a good idea to go to solid lifters. You might want to try running a roller cam too, then it would be pretty much impossible to wipe the cam.

[rampage_82]

Ok I'm running aluminum roller rockers, with 3/8" Isky pushrods, where else would you suggest I get lighter??

[rampage_82]

Ok well from everything that I found, the reason I'm going solid instead of roller, besides trying to play on a cops salary, is because the roller cams I find are either the hyd roller, which have a lift of around .500, or the solid rollers, which have lifts of .600+. I'm needing around a .550 lift.

***further info*** Also from talking with Mr. Dvorak he among other said that the 906's can't use anything above a .550 lift.

[rampage_82]

Oh I have to admit another gianormous mistake I made..... I didn't balance the engine when I built it. Not that I was trying to be a cheap a**, but because I was already running behind schedule.... (Stupid hindsight.......) What further effects would this have had?

[MOPEkid]

I guess your valvetrain is fine then. I was just thinking that it might help keep your cam in better condition if you had a lighter valvetrain, but you can't really go much lighter anyway, so I take back what I said. And yeah, having the motor unbalanced would cause a bunch of stuff. I think your bearings are gone, it may have also caused some damage to the block or main caps when you over-revved it like that. You could try giving Hughes Engines a call and telling them your situation, they may be able to build you a custom lift solid roller cam (which I don't think is that much more expensive than going with an off-the-shelf one). Get some other opinions too, I'm just giving suggestions from what I've read and heard on forums and in books.

[rampage_82]

Well I like the roller idea, but not too sure I can talk the wifey into it (New Baby Boy + Cops Salary = have to race very frugally), I think the rounding off problem is a fluke. All of my buddies have had problems with Comp's as well. I have run many Lunati's, Isky's, and Crane's and never had problems like this one gave me. I don't hate Comp's or anything, I just had bad luck with them. When I switched to the Lunati, it worked flawlessly, and I had more run time on it than I did with both the Comp's put together. I did break-in the same on all cams.... I'll be the first to admit this was strange, but it happened nevertheless.

[rampage_82]

Oh yeah and sorry if I'm not in the correct forum, but this was as close as I could find. There isn't a mud racing forum, and even if there was I think I'd be talking to myself.....

[bigj3341]

internal or external balance? also wondering what work was done to the crank? if anything? also i don't know mud racing but im sure you rev higher pretty high. What kind off cooling system? What did u use for piston rings?

[rampage_82]

The motor is internal balance. The piston rings were the file fit, which came with the pistons. Well in mud racing / mud bogs, you do rev fairly high, but until I went airborne, I never saw anything above 6000, cause I shift there. Also I don't think that it is as hard on the engine as say circle track racing, cause your run is only like from 4 to 20 seconds (depending on how nasty the pit is.) I haven't ever been in a pit for longer than 10 seconds.

The crank was turned .010 / .010, and I ran about .035 clearance (wanted it a little loose)

The cooling system is out of a 65 Dodge Car (Water Pump inlet is on the driver's side). I never overheated the motor. It would aways run at about 190 degrees.

Is there any consensus about the 1/2" oil pump inlet vs the 3/8"?

[kruzer]

In my opion the oil pan would run dry with a 1/2 oil pick up assuming you have a high volume pump unless you had a large pan. But thats just a theory having never tried it myself.

[rampage_82]

Well I do have the truck rear sump pan, which holds 6 quarts.

One school of thought says that if you were having problems with the bearings connecting with the crank, that you need more flow (I'm already running a H/V pump) so the 1/2" would help.

But then there is the running the oil pan dry problem. So what if you ran the 1/2" pickup with thicker oil say 20W/50W Valvoline VR1 racing oil? But then you probably have drainback issues....

This makes my brain hurt.

[MOPEkid]

I've read in magazines that the stock oiling system on Mopar Big-Blocks is not that great. That's a pretty heavy oil too, and you most likely would have drainback issues. I don't see why you'd need to run thicker oil anyway. Why not just run an accumulator setup? I've heard of that being done on cars where there is a chance of the pickup tube becoming uncovered.

[rampage_82]

accumulator setup? Where do I find information about those? I had someone mention that to me, but I didn't know what they were talking about. Is it similar to an accumulator in the tranny, that holds constant pressure, and if it overcomes the pressure on the other side, it compensates?

[Ray Bell]

Accumulators... they are great!

A large cylinder with a spring-pressurised piston in it, the surplus oil from your pressure relief valve keeps it full (under pressure from that spring) and when you run low on oil it simply pumps that oil into your system.

Road racers use them to combat surge...

[rampage_82]

Cool, I just found them at Summit, I think that will definitely be a purchase of mine. Now would you guys suggest one with the manual valve, or just the standard one? The standard one looks much simpler....

[beepbeepsrule]

440 engines with the heavy six-pack rods had a different and heavier dampener on the front. I went with a fluid type balancer on mine last time, works great, smooth at all rpms (thru 6,000 anyway). And the conventional wisdom regarding horsepower from 440's in the past anyway was to use the stock rods, not the heavy six-pack ones.

A 440 won't need much special stuff to be a reliable powerhouse in stock form.

906 heads need .500 lift to flow well and smooth past 5,000 rpm. Keeping that in mind the stock springs bind at .510. Hence the abundance of .509 lift cams.

I am not sure what is being discussed about internal versus external balancing, I was thinking all big block mopes are external, I just cannot remember now about the torque converters needing weights for any of the 440's. My last car was a stick shift.

My last build produced a great engine with torque at all rpms, and great power thru 5,500 and will rev thru 6,000. Everybody has their own favorite things to try and this is what I used with good reliable results:
Stock '68 block and pistons and rods.
Stock 906 heads with new valves and machining.
New stock rockers and pushrods.
Stock HD lifters.
MoPar .509/292 "Purple Shaft"
Windage tray, also helps keep oil over the pickup at launch (oil cannot move up into the block as readily as it gets sloshed backwards)
HV oil pump with stock relief spring.
Wolverine headers
Stock Thermoquad cast intake 1978 vintage
Demonsizzler tuned Thermoquad carb, same 1978 vintage
MoPar electronic distributor, modded advance curve all in by 2,400
Chrome Ignition Box from MoPar
Stock appearing Blaster3 coil
CAT Fluid Harmonic Balancer
Aluminum water pump on stock cast housing
Stock clutch fan.

Car:
Car is a '69 RoadRunner 4speed with 3.92 sure-grip.
New 2 stage diaphragm style clutch.

Halfway thru the video in the link below is the car launching at about 2,500 rpms. This is my son's car now, he was just figuring out how to drive it. The driveways are about 50 feet apart, hard to tell from the camera's perspective:
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...ideoID=2562341

[aarracer]

Originally Posted by Ray Bell

When you rebuild, have a serious look at some Schubeck lifters... the ones that are made from Kryptonite or whatever it is, they cost about $550 but cut out a lot of wear issues.

A friend of mine ran schubecks this year in an "R" block and they actually snapped right in half midway up. Quite amazing to see to say the least. And I believe that they are no longer in business (so he says).

AARRACER

[aarracer]

Originally Posted by MOPEkid

I've read in magazines that the stock oiling system on Mopar Big-Blocks is not that great. That's a pretty heavy oil too, and you most likely would have drainback issues. I don't see why you'd need to run thicker oil anyway. Why not just run an accumulator setup? I've heard of that being done on cars where there is a chance of the pickup tube becoming uncovered.

I believe these accumulators are for supplying startup pre-lubing of an engine only, not make up for low oil pressure?

AARRACER

[bigj3341]

he is only running at most a a hard 20 sec. run then probbaly idling. I cant see the oil being a problem on something not constantly running. If it was an oil issue i would think it would make itself a very apparent problem.

[rampage_82]

well the accumulator as far as I can tell, holds an extra 1 1/2 qts or 3 qts, and it holds it at a constant pressure. When the oil pressure drops it forces the oil into the motor, supposedly a real life saver.

The balance of the 440.... The cast cranks were externally balanced whereas the steel cranks were internally balanced.

My 906 heads were built by Dan Dvorak, and they have springs and the guides have been cut, to run a .550" lift, not to mention the porting and large valves he did to them ... look up the super port flow here dvorakmachine.com/heads.shtml

[OHD]

The accumulator can and should be used for/as a preluber, as soon as ignition is turned on it forces oil into the oil passages or where ever you have it plumbed.

Make sure you mount it above the level of the input on the engine or it has to push the oil up and in, instead of just in. (I inject directly into the individual 5 main journals on the hemis.)

It is best to set it up as auto on at ignition + and to auto kick in at any oil pressure below 20 psi.

Nothing like forgetting to pull the manual lever when you see several things going on and remembering if you had pulled it (the lever) you would not be able to change rods, with taking off the pan, through the windows.

(PS stay way far away from any new fangled items (like stubeck), mostly they are all hype and overpriced. The internet crowd (ie the vendors marking them up 200 a set) crowed like sunday chickens that missed the slaughter house cull when they came out, now they seem conviently quiet and refuse to refund the purcharcers that got burned big time...and lost big Ks in motor damage. That was one of the keys (to me) that the Moparts crowd was just shilling for their website advertisers when they all seemed to love that junk and sent you to one of their "brothers" that had a set forsale. )

I still find myself falling for hype every now and then and it cost lots of time and money to straighten out the junk, once you find out it is total crap. Just ask and I will outline those recent great products and deals, but remember I deal in oddball hemi stuff.

Get your lifters "crowned" by one of the several lifter shops and you will do way better with old factory solid lifters than the new cheap steel lifters on the market today. Just about any solid lifter, from the 55 Chrysler 300C up will work great. You want good steel .904 (.9035 diameter) lifters with stock location pushrod cups. That was probably the reason for your cam problems.

If you don't want to continue rebuilding the engine, save up for a good steel crank, good steel I beam rods, and great pistons. Have the stuff perfectly matched, setup, and internally balanced and you should be good to go for a long time. "Cheap" is figured out after you sell the engine, not when you assemble it.

IE 5K engine runs great for 3-4 years you want to move up you sell for 2500... cost 2500
3K engine lasts 1 year and blows up.... cost 3K and it is bucket of bolts for next rebuild. That is exactly why cheap engines cost more....

[rampage_82]

Hey guys thanks for all the advise, I think the consensus is that it was more than likely a balancing problem, I need to figure out what components to put together next.

Like I said before my heads, were really nice (well except for being factory castings anyways), I guess my question is. Will my heads breathe well enough for a 496 if I'm only going to be taking it to 6,000?

Next thing I need to figure out what cam to get. I have my heart set on a Solid Lifter cam, however I have never been around one to know what to expect. I know that I hated my wussie hyd's. I really don't know why I went that rout in the first place, but nevertheless I did. Here are the specs on the truck & new motor (Again in Theory)

496ci with the 906 heads super port flow set up for .550 lift {conservative estimate I'll buy matching springs to whatever camshaft I get} (dvorakmachine.com/heads.shtml). The compression ratio is going to be approx. 11 to 1. I have an Edelbrock Torker II intake gasket matched. I'm running a Predator Carb. Ignition is a Mallory Hyfire VI Digital CD box, with a stock electronic distributor, which has been "locked out" I.E. flyweights welded, no vacuum advance.

The tranny is a 727 with manual valvebody. The torque converter is a Boss Hogg 3,000 stall. The truck runs in Low Range, which is 2.61 and the gears are 3.73 front and 3.90 rears. The Tires are 42x15x16.5 Super Swamper TSL's.

I'm needing the Motor to make it's power between about 2,500 and 6,500. Here are the cams that I thought would work.

Hughes #4248BS3 = Lift In. Ex. Dur @ .050 In. Ex.
Lobe Center 108 .543" .563" .242 .248

MP #4120661 = Lift In. Ex. Dur @ .050 In. Ex.
Lobe Center 110 .557 .557 .252 .252

Isky #165170= Lift In. Ex. Dur @ .050 In. Ex.
Lobe Center 108 .548 .548 .264 .264

I'm kinda leaning towards the Hughes, because I've heard awsome reviews about their products, which Is why I am sorta shying away from the MP. However I've never had a bad Isky, so I'll just ask your opinions.

Oh and I still need an opinion about my 906's, will they work well enough on a 496?

[Jack_440 Savoy]

I certainly would not advise you to build your engine in anyway. But I have heard someone state if you build a expensive stroker engine with Good stock 440 heads you will have a Big Expensive engine that runs like a Good 440 . I don't think a Roller cam is going to solve all your problems either . I think they have their own set of problems . You maybe to young to have read the book , But with your new son , I am sure you will read it in a while " If You Give a Mouse a Cookie " It says a Lot . I know when you build a engine you have to have a Good Plan . I would try and find a Good engine builder and listen to him. Trouble with the internet is Information Overload and not all of it is Good . Good Luck !!! Jack

[dirttrackracer]

I'm no expert but with what your doing with that motor you need to build for duability more than max power. I would look into a good steel crank H-beam rods ""lite weight"" pistons internal ballance and button the bottom with billet main caps. up top get a Hughes cam they really do make great power and last a long time. Stay with a solid lifter use the 3/8" pushrods and the recomended valve springs. Keep the RPM's under 7000 and that thing will last several years. By the way most 4 stroke motorcycle oils have the "zinc" thats needed for the cam. Good luck and have fun.

[Ray Bell]

Yes, it seems that Joe Schubeck has closed up shop...

The lifters had a ceramic face, and if you got valve bounce you can shatter them it seems. I just had a romp around various websites reading up on them, they work fine, but valve bounce can be the death of them and a big problem for the engine.