Electric Water Pump

[cudabob496]

Summit has an electric water pump that bolts to my water pump housing, costs $179, draws 6 amps, and pumps 37 gpm, so they say. Think this will work on my big block Cuda?

[OHD]

The volume of water those little pumps move is not enough for a street driven car.

[bobr]

Originally Posted by OHD

The volume of water those little pumps move is not enough for a street driven car.

Absolutely correct. Although you will occasionally hear from someone who has driven across country 25 times without ever having a problem these pieces are race only or for cars that only drive as far as the nearest car show. -Bob

[mopar monkey]

try a belt driven and leave your pulley so you can put the belt back on for street use.

[cudabob496]

Hard to believe Summit would advertise it for a 440 engine, and yet it doesn't cut it for cooling, but I respect you guys opinion.

[bobr]

Originally Posted by cudabob496

Hard to believe Summit would advertise it for a 440 engine, and yet it doesn't cut it for cooling, but I respect you guys opinion.

Summit is in business to sell parts and make money not necessarily to insure your car runs well. The pumps they sell work great for racing and other limited driving. They will not take the place of a mechanical for "real" street driving. -Bob

[DartGT66]

Do you really have experience of those pumps not being enough for regular traffic use? Because I have, and my experience has been quite different. In regular traffic, you don't use a lot of power, and therefore you don't need amax effort cooling capability either. I think driving at steady 65 mph, you use perhaps 60 hp? And in regular tarffic in the cities, very seldom above that even when accelerating. I have used different pumps in the street, Moroso, Meziere; no problems with either, even the moroso pulley driven mototr could handle driving. However, in the dyno, the moroso pulley driven elctric motor couldn't handle the job. With the moroso unit replacing the stock BB pump, the temps also rose during a dyno pull. The Meziere seemed to do better, only a couple of degrees variation. But like I said, never a problem in regular traffic. However, like in most cases, the figures in the advertisments are, well, advertisments. I wouldn't pay too much attention to them. Currently we are using an external thermotatically sontrolled variable speed electric pump. By the numbers, it's no match for those other pumps, but in practice it works just fine. During a run in hte 1/4 mile, from the beginning of the burn out to the end of the trac our water temp raises 15 fahrenheits, and comes rapidly back down to the pre set temp after that. The DAvies Craig EWP pump seems to be good enough for McLaren F1's too, and in street use it's ususally between 6-9 volts during hot summer days in our 1300 hp turbo engine.

[namvet67a1f]

On a street car ......

Say YES to an electric fan. If it fails ... the engine will overheat but gradually.

An electric water pump? ... If that fails(and you don't catch-it) ... the motor is toast -- almost right away.

[cudabob496]

Originally Posted by namvet67a1f

On a street car ......

Say YES to an electric fan. If it fails ... the engine will overheat but gradually.

An electric water pump? ... If that fails(and you don't catch-it) ... the motor is toast -- almost right away.

I'm still leaning towards getting the Summit pump for my 496 Street Cuda. I have an aluminum radiator, and that will give me some some advantage if the electric pump failed. I have an electric fan, and I rarely have to turn it on because the alum radiator works so well, and my hood is vented so air easily goes through the radiator. I also have a red light that comes on at 220 to warn of an overheating engine. That should also help if the electric pump failed. I can also rigg up a red light that will go on if power to the electric pump is lost. Lastly, I have all power out of the alternator going though an amp guage, so I would see a change in amps if the pump was lost.

It doesn't seem that the motor would be toast right away. Seems you'd have some time to turn it off, same as if someone threw a water pump belt.

[DartGT66]

I have thrown belts allover, they don't seem to like much over 7000 with less than perfect pulley alignment. I have yet to have an electric water pump fail, but of course I've only been using them since 1999. The current EWP unit was bought in 2003. http://www.daviescraig.com.au/main/display.asp?pid=47 Ours is the smaller model, rated at 21 gpm and weighs a whopping 2 lbs.

[bobr]

"I'm still leaning towards getting the Summit pump for my 496 Street Cuda."


Then why ask? It's your motor and your money. I have a Meziere pump in my garage that I took off of my brother's 496. He has THE BEST radiator money can buy with a nascar style Griffin. The electric pump didn't cut it. -Bob

[OHD]

When one decreases water flow rate, the cooling system must be upgraded (more rows more surface area) because the engine has more time to heat up the water while it is still in the block so more area surface is needed to cool it.

Then one must upgrade to a compatible charging system to handle the higher amp load of the heavier duty cooling fan that is needed to pull the amount of additional air needed.. new more volume CFM fan needed to cool that hotter water

Then one must upgrade the wiring to assure the amp load from the newer higher amp alternator/charging system does not burn the wiring up. One must also to remember to use HD relays to keep from cooking the rest of the wiring harness also.

Then one gets the bright idea to get the bigger electric pump and this forces one to relocate the radiator because the fans and water pump don't fit in there.

Then one gets to come back and ask why nobody from "enter vendor name" told him this BEFORE they sold him that "electric pump" for street use.

OR

Why they rear ended another vechicle watching their amp gage for signs of their fans coming on and off and for signs to tell fluctuations of enough hi/low load to shut down. Then is issued a reckless ticket after explains all this to some officer for not paying full time and attention to the road when operating a motor vechicle.

Yup REAL GOOD IDEA....

[cudabob496]

Originally Posted by bobr

"I'm still leaning towards getting the Summit pump for my 496 Street Cuda."


Then why ask? It's your motor and your money. I have a Meziere pump in my garage that I took off of my brother's 496. He has THE BEST radiator money can buy with a nascar style Griffin. The electric pump didn't cut it. -Bob

I'm leaning towards the electric based on the responses on this website, and others, to my original question. I like to get several opinions before making a decision. That is why I asked the question in the first place.

[OHD]

When "others" give you an "opinion" that the Summit pump will street cool your engine, tell anyone to buy one and then you will give them 25% more for the pump and a written guarantee that it will keep your engine in its operating temp range......

Then make Summit the same offer, at their published price..

Then wait and watch for the offers.......

PS: don't hold your breath....

[cudabob496]

All the motors in the car magazine engine shootouts use electric water pumps.

[bobr]

Originally Posted by cudabob496

All the motors in the car magazine engine shootouts use electric water pumps.

One last time and then the decision is yours. There is a definite application for electric water pumps. Dyno shootouts are one such application where they shine. They do save a few horsepower and are perfect for short trips like 1/4 mile per or quick trips to car shows. If you are going to really street drive your car these pumps come up short most of the time. Also, like has been noted they can and do fail and unless you are real alert you could burn your motor up before you realize what has happened. Pay close attention to the correct electrical pieces needed to even think about using electric pumps. You will also need a good electric fan which are quite expensive and do draw a LOT OF CURRENT. Like I posted earlier I took these pieces off of my 496 when I converted the car from strip only to street/strip. I had a high flow Meziere which flows quite a bit more than 37GPM and it was still inadequate. -Bob

[cudabob496]

Originally Posted by bobr

One last time and then the decision is yours. There is a definite application for electric water pumps. Dyno shootouts are one such application where they shine. They do save a few horsepower and are perfect for short trips like 1/4 mile per or quick trips to car shows. If you are going to really street drive your car these pumps come up short most of the time. Also, like has been noted they can and do fail and unless you are real alert you could burn your motor up before you realize what has happened. Pay close attention to the correct electrical pieces needed to even think about using electric pumps. You will also need a good electric fan which are quite expensive and do draw a LOT OF CURRENT. Like I posted earlier I took these pieces off of my 496 when I converted the car from strip only to street/strip. I had a high flow Meziere which flows quite a bit more than 37GPM and it was still inadequate. -Bob

Appreciate the input. I've seen other advice that say with an electric you can save up to 10hp in high rpms, where my car runs. But based on what you are saying, I will be careful.

[cudabob496]

Apparently endorsed by McLaren:

http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?fo...action=product

[OHD]

Hey cudaman you want MORE flow NOT less

that guys "big boy" only flows 29 gpm (110 liters)

AND one size fits all, for more money....

BTW: What are the "high rpm" numbers your wedge stroker motor runs ? How much of the time is the engine running, at peak HP, for it to gain 10HP?

[charger_dan]

Originally Posted by bobr

I took these pieces off of my 496 when I converted the car from strip only to street/strip. I had a high flow Meziere which flows quite a bit more than 37GPM and it was still inadequate. -Bob

Bob, what system did you swap to for your conversion to street use?
Just curious.

[OHD]

Most efficient street system is simple, clay up a housing interior, get high flow milodon pump, install on housing and turn. Remove and measure the thickness of clay.

Subtract 10-15 thousands and cut housing face by that number. Reinstall pump and it will flow much more water for the cavitation has been eliminated from the housing.

Remember the number you cut and make spacer that much, for the pulley shaft to move pulley back out..

The reduction in heat, caused by rapidly moving water in and out, will easily make you more usable HP in a wider range.

[cudabob496]

Originally Posted by OHD

Hey cudaman you want MORE flow NOT less

that guys "big boy" only flows 29 gpm (110 liters)

AND one size fits all, for more money....

BTW: What are the "high rpm" numbers your wedge stroker motor runs ? How much of the time is the engine running, at peak HP, for it to gain 10HP?

Only time I am at peak horsepower is when I am in a race, which happens only occassionaly. But when it does, I want all the advantage, as a certain Subaru WRX STi recently found out. It was close in first, close half way through second, and then when I could keep traction, good bye .......
I have a solid roller, so I can go into the mid 6000s easily.

I know the big boy above is only 29 gpm. I'm just saying electric water pumps can be the way to go if they have the flow, and the rest of your setup is good. I think Mezieres can go 45to 50 gpm. Hey, for an extra 10 hp, it may be worth it. Again, at idle, an electric is at full flow, and that may be good in stop and go traffic.

[DartGT66]

My only experience is from the four street BB engiens we have used with electric pumps. Like I said, no problems with any of those pumps. Three of the blocks have been partially filled (from very little to the tops of the freeze plugs), the radiators have been either aftermarket universal 26 x 19" aluminum units or custom made big brass radiators. The engines have made between 650 and 781 hp naturally aspirated on pump gas, several different versions, and currently have 1300+ hp with 18 psi of boost, still on pump gas. No problems, I can drive the car anywhere I want.

[OHD]

Hey dart, please call Meziere, Ron Davis radiators, CSR, and Griffin. They could use your research to change their tech service/research opinions and greatly expand their markets, for their probucts.

[bobr]

Filled blocks takes some of the burden off of the cooling system and places it on the oiling system. You better be using a high quality oil cooler or your motor will be toasted in very little time.

When I converted my car to street I used an aluminum housing WP combo from Mancini racing and found some pulleys, fan, ect laying around my garage. My brother fabbed up the shroud. He drove the car on the Woodward cruise last summer and it never got over 180 degrees in stop and go traffic with 80+ degree ambient temperature. -Bob

[cudabob496]

Originally Posted by bobr

Filled blocks takes some of the burden off of the cooling system and places it on the oiling system. You better be using a high quality oil cooler or your motor will be toasted in very little time.

When I converted my car to street I used an aluminum housing WP combo from Mancini racing and found some pulleys, fan, ect laying around my garage. My brother fabbed up the shroud. He drove the car on the Woodward cruise last summer and it never got over 180 degrees in stop and go traffic with 80+ degree ambient temperature. -Bob

Can someone educate me on what a filled block is, and why they do it?

[rampage_82]

A filled block uses either an epoxy, or concrete poured through the deck, about the level of the freeze plugs. The general idea is to tie all the cylinder's together, and it makes the block much stronger, cause if you look at it, the cylinders are just metal tubes, and they are only held at the top and bottom. It works great for mud racing, or motors that only run for a short time. Not recommended for street use.

I don't even want to get in the electric pump discussion. I've seen em work fine sometimes, and not worth a flying cr*p the next. Especially the ones with the little electric motor with the belt to the standard water pump...sheesh those things are a joke.

[DartGT66]

I don't have to call Meziere, I'm not the one thatg guarantees things. But these pumps have worked for me, they are not "pushed" in regular street driving. There can and will be failures with all styles of pumps, I have been so far happy with the electric ones, especially the Meziere and double especially the EWP. It's something, that anyone saying "they don't work" can't deny, they have worked for me. The mororso in my opinion wasn't quite up to the task, alhtough it worked in the street too without overheating problems. The pulley/motor set up may work in a drag only car, but it is on the limit and maybe even beyond, even on an continuously idling engine. And true, filled block more likely lowers the water temps than raises them, and the oil does a bigger part of cooling in filled block engines. An engine oil cooler is a very wise idea, although I have never had one. In the engine with the tallest fill you could follow the oil temp in continuous highway driving by watching the oil pressure gauge. Switch to synthetic oil helped that problem considerably.

[pishta]

Originally Posted by OHD

Hey cudaman you want MORE flow NOT less

that guys "big boy" only flows 29 gpm (110 liters)

AND one size fits all, for more money....

BTW: What are the "high rpm" numbers your wedge stroker motor runs ? How much of the time is the engine running, at peak HP, for it to gain 10HP?

Its not always flow numbers that dictate cooling efficiency. run fire hose flow rates through your motor and you wont find the cooling any better. Remember that the davies unit totally bypasses the thermostat (you remove it and its restriction) and just cycles water at a rate that ensures maximum heat soak in the radiator and maximum time in the block. Its not all about flow. Plus high speed cavitation with a belt system aerates the coolant, reduces its heat carrying potential and causes impeller damage as well as taking HP to turn faster. Electric is the way to go in a totally efficiency package, but its not ffor everyone. I would run one as my car is a weekender, but if it is a daily driver, I would stick with the AL radiator and a CAT or other pump that has a cavitation plate impeller, either cast or tack welded. I have a monster bakelite impeller 64 Super Stock pump that is sitting on my shelf, huge impeller wall to wall and it has the cavitation plate design. Its a real old design but looks like it would move some water if that is what you are looking for.

[DartGT66]

And just to add some fuel to the fire, years wgo we dynoed a 451 engine with a factory overdriven pulley pump, and an electric pump with the same tune up, and here is the difference in (corrected) power:
3000, 9hp
3500, 12hp
4000, 15hp
4500, 18hp
5000, 23hp
5500, 18hp
6000, 24hp
6500, 15hp
However, the run with the electric pump was the first pull, and the engine still "cold" (intakes, heads etc colder than in the later pulls), and that explains part of the difference. But how big part?