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  #1  
Old 01-29-2000, 07:39 PM
Speedy#1 Speedy#1 is offline
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I don't know wear i read this or seen it but but is their a O'2 senser you can pipe in your axhaust so you can set your carb to it's maximum potential ? i'm not sure how it works is it hand held or some type of gage?THIS has ben bugging me for a week now.
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  #2  
Old 01-29-2000, 07:54 PM
Larry Larry is offline
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Speedy, Summit Sells one when I get a chance I'll look it up and post it for you.

--------------------
Larry
71 charger
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  #3  
Old 01-29-2000, 08:01 PM
swinging340 swinging340 is offline
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Its made by Edlebrock and they do sell it through Summit. I just happened to have my catalog handy. The part # is EDL-6593 and its about $127.
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  #4  
Old 01-30-2000, 12:52 AM
Speedy#1 Speedy#1 is offline
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thank's for the info ,have you used one before or know anyone that has,this may be a good investment just in gas savings would pay for it , not to mention performance too.I'll have to talk to the edelbrock guy's at the autorama in Detroit next month .
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  #5  
Old 02-01-2000, 01:31 AM
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pishta pishta is offline
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JC Whitney sells a small digital A/F ratio meter pretty cheap, all you need is a GENERIC cheapo (25.00) O2 sensor and some unleaded gas. I think it even has instruction on adjusting metering.
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  #6  
Old 02-01-2000, 06:11 PM
Brian Brian is offline
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I bought my A/F ratio gauge from Summit Racing. Here is the link to the company that makes them.
http://www.intellitronix.com/product2.html

I have the K702 gauge and the TH8941 oxygen sensor.

When I'm cruising the gauge shows between 14.7:1 and the first white mark too the right.
At WOW, it is between the White mark and the Yellow mark under RICH.
http://www.intellitronix.com/product5.html

The only other part you need is a weld in bund from Summit.


------------------
1971 Duster 340 'RTS'
1999 Durango 360

http://www.damnimcool.com/Brian/
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  #7  
Old 02-02-2000, 09:51 AM
Speedy#1 Speedy#1 is offline
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thanks guy's, hay Brian that's a pritty cool link i was wondering what they look like.Im no expert with carbs so that should take all the guess work out of setting it up.
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  #8  
Old 02-02-2000, 05:39 PM
Brian Brian is offline
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Gald I could help. It's a fun gauge to watch and it has been useful as a tuning tool.

Good luck.

------------------
1971 Duster 340 'RTS'
1999 Durango 360

http://www.damnimcool.com/Brian/
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  #9  
Old 02-02-2000, 06:00 PM
bemiller bemiller is offline
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Question

Do you guys know if it would work with leaded racing gas? If so that could be a great track tuning tool.

------------------
Check out http://www.donet.com/bemiller/ and let me know what you think!!
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  #10  
Old 02-02-2000, 08:31 PM
Mr Belvedere Mr Belvedere is offline
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bemiller: Leaded gas will eat the O2 sensor in short order, but there is unleaded race gas .

Brian: What range of ratios does your guage display? Most of the guates out there will tell you when your right on stoich, but don't have a lot of range above or below.

------------------
"...they don't make no seatbelt for the mind, so I can't buckle up for this ride."

Mr Belvedere (aka Jason)

Current driver: 1966 Plymouth Belvedere II, 400BB (Torker 383; Purple Shaft 6pak cam; Carter Competition AFB; Hedman headers; 2 1/2" full exhaust with Flowmasters; "Chrome" ECU; recurved distributor; 8.2:1 smogger heads; Moroso 8qt pan/pickup; HV oil pump) and 727 Torqueflite (2400 Stall; Transgo shift kit)
This weekend: Block heat risers; 1" plastic carb spacer; Jacob's ProStreet Ultra Energy Team
Best run 14.40 by previous owner (track opens in MARCH!)


[This message has been edited by Mr Belvedere (edited February 02, 2000).]
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  #11  
Old 02-02-2000, 08:44 PM
Brian Brian is offline
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Mr Belvedere,

Check out my post below. It has a picture of the guage and O2 sensor in the links.

I DO mix a little leaded racing gas with pump gas. Usually about two gallons to a tankfull, sixteen.

I'm sure if I ran straight leaded gas, it would make quick work of the O2 sensor.



------------------
1971 Duster 340 'RTS'
1999 Durango 360

http://www.damnimcool.com/Brian/
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  #12  
Old 02-02-2000, 09:26 PM
Mr Belvedere Mr Belvedere is offline
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Hey Brian,

Looks pretty sharp, but what I was wondering is, if they give you any idea of what the marks indicate? What is the full sweep range? I have called a couple of the guage manufacturers and one of them stated that there guage only reads from about 14:1 to 15.5:1, which would be ok for setting idle mixture, but not much of anything else. When you run it through the quarter does the needle peg, or does it stay within the sweep the whole time?
Thanks for the info,
Jason
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  #13  
Old 02-03-2000, 04:50 AM
sublime70 sublime70 is offline
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Wink

Leaded gas and oxygen sensors are not necessarily incompatible. Most aftermarket oxygen sensor maufacturers say that a few hundred gallons will wipe out the sensor. However , as an aircraft mechanic/inspector, I have easy access to 100Low-lead avgas for use in my daily driven (160 miles per day)'91 Muckstang. After probably 700 or so gallons over the past few years, my oxygen sensors are fine. No error codes, open-loop problems or computer malfunctions whatsoever. My boss has a Brand-X with a 406, mini-ram intake, and a DFI cobbled together using MOPAR (chuckle chuckle!) fuel injection parts with oxygen sensors. We both mix avgas 50/50 with pump premium and run it in these daily drivers. Keep in mind that 100 octane "low-lead" avgas has 6 (that's SIX) times as much lead as PREMIUM leaded auto gas had back in the glory years. Every mechanic I work with has burned various amounts of this heavily leaded fuel in their older (ie., w/oxygen sensors but convertors removed)cars, with the same success. However it will dirty up the plugs faster than unleaded, and like more timing. Experts can say what they will about leaded fuel and oxygen sensors, but this has been my experience after 8 years. You guys may not have the same luck, but that's my 2 cents worth.
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  #14  
Old 02-03-2000, 04:29 PM
parkert parkert is offline
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Another good source for the a/f ratio meter is Haltech. We use this on a road course car and it is way superior to the small units usually sold. It has about 30 led mixture indicators instead of the 6 or 8 on the small ones. The car runs leaded 112 octane gas. We install the O2 sensor for tuning and take it back out after we are done. So far we are still on the same O2 sensor after four seasons.

------------------
Parker
'69 Charger 383-4
www.rearwheeldrive.org
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  #15  
Old 02-03-2000, 04:51 PM
Brian Brian is offline
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Jason,

I was told by the manufacture that the gauge was accurate, that is dead-on at 14.7:1. Beyond that, it a logical guess. So here is what I do. Always make sure the gauge is NEVER leaner that 14.7:1. In my original post, I did not state specific number reading because it a guess. Here is my best guess:

Idle: 14:7 – 14.4
Cruise: 14.4
WOW: 14.0 – 13.8

My guess comes from where the needle points on the gauge as I stated below. My plugs are a little gray; they have a very light coating of carbon. I run RN9YC’s with 36 degrees of total timing. After my weekly Sunday drives, my rear bumper has some carbon dots on it. They wash off easily with a little soap and water.

I have great throttle response with no hesitation at any RPM. It pulls cleanly from idle up to just under 6000Rpm’s. At that Rpm, the motor starts to roll over the horsepower curve. I auto-shift at 5500Rpm’s. I need to up that to about 5900Rpm’s.

I haven’t yet raced my car, but I have had many full throttle runs on the highway pulling up to 5500Rpm’s in high gear. That would be about 113Mph with my 245/60-14’s. The gauge leans over to rich as I said, but does not peg. It doesn’t lean out either, so I assume I’m ok. I will race the car in a few weeks. I’m thinking February 19 or 26 at Houston Raceway Park. I have a pair of M&H 235/60-14 DOT 707 compound tires mounted on an extra set of rally wheels for these occasions.

What does all this tell me? When I read the gauge, plugs and some mild carbon buildup on the bumper, I believe I’m right in the ballpark. The gauge was great at telling me where I needed to go to get it dialed in. I had changed jets and metering rods until the gauge was into the rich side. It was running a lot leaner, some times pegged lean before I richened up the Thermoquad. If I didn’t have a gauge, I would have been pulling plugs all the time to get the same results.

Now, as for leaded gas, I add some to my car, about 2 gallons of VP C12 per tankfull. That is 108 octane racing gas. I do this for three reasons; the motor runs cooler with some leaded gas in it, the lead acts as a buffer on the exhaust values, and I have no worries about ignition timing and run-on. I have hardened exhaust valve seats, but what the hey!

I’m not worried about my oxygen sensor with the amount of leaded gas I mix in my tank. If my oxygen sensor needs to be replaced every few years, so be it. I don’t have the experience that Sublime has with his cars and avgas. I will find out how well the oxygen sensor works with VP12 and 93 premium unleaded mixed at the ratio of 1:8.

I hope this helps.

------------------
1971 Duster 340 'RTS'
1999 Durango 360

http://www.damni
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  #16  
Old 02-03-2000, 05:48 PM
Speedy#1 Speedy#1 is offline
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way Brian can the unit be used on more then one car or wnen i install it, is it pritty much a part of the car ,i own 2-79 duster's 1-360 1-super six, a 69 dart GT ,83 FIFTH AVE,and soon i will be getting a 70 440 SUPER BEE off a guy i work with .you guy's already answered all the rest of the questions i was going to ask exept how much does the Haltech system cost an who has them ?Well anyway from what you guy's said I'VE GOT TO GET ME ONE TOO!!!
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  #17  
Old 02-03-2000, 08:24 PM
billyclub billyclub is offline
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Lightbulb

Autometer also sells an A/F guage that looks good & matches the other guages in their line.

The comercially available A/F guages are somewhat limited as a tuning tool because of the way they work. Think of the sensors as basically a 3 position switch. The o2 sends info to the combuter based on whether the engine is lean, rich or at stoich. They do not necessarily have varying degrees of "richness" or "leanness" they only know that the engine is rich or lean. When the engine is rich for example, the computer sends a signal to the computer that "bumps" the mixture leaner. Imagine driving down the road with no hands and bumping the the steering wheel right or left to keep it going straight.

That is why manufacturers tell you that the guage in "accurate at stoich" because they are. Pass that parameter and their ability is limited.
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  #18  
Old 02-03-2000, 09:53 PM
Brian Brian is offline
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Look at the bottom left hand side of my dash. You will see an Autometer water temp gauge, an Autometer oil pressure gauge and my A/F gauge. All nice and neat in an Autometer bracket.


------------------
1971 Duster 340 'RTS'
1999 Durango 360
http://www.damnimcool.com/Brian/

[This message has been edited by Brian (edited February 03, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Brian (edited February 03, 2000).]
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  #19  
Old 02-03-2000, 10:56 PM
parkert parkert is offline
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The Haltech is at www.haltech.com. Click on products and then click on other. Not sure of the cost.

------------------
Parker
'69 Charger 383-4
www.rearwheeldrive.org
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  #20  
Old 02-03-2000, 11:23 PM
Mr Belvedere Mr Belvedere is offline
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Thanks Brian,

That is exactly the information I was looking for. As far as O2 sensor longevity, I was going by the fact that I had both sensors on my Mustang go out during the first half of a drag season, and that was running AvGas100 for the strip only. The sensors had well over 100k on them already, so maybe the lead just finished them off. I also was researching wide-band O2 sensors not to long ago, and I found some stats on how long (average) that they could be ran with unleaded fuel, and for me it worked out to like ~9months (I drive at least 30k/year). It gave the time in hours and I calculated from there, I can't remember the number, seems like it was 300hours, but I'm not certain. Don't hold me to the exact numbers, but it stated with leaded lifetime would be significantly reduced. With sublime and your experiences, maybe the stock O2s are just extremely durable?

[This message has been edited by Mr Belvedere (edited February 03, 2000).]
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  #21  
Old 02-04-2000, 02:17 AM
Speedy#1 Speedy#1 is offline
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Brian that's a good looking car and boy that interior is clean as a whistle.HAY what does(Stoich)mean i can't say i ever herd that word before.I seen that word again when i went to that Haltech site.Man that thing look's really cool too!
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  #22  
Old 02-08-2000, 11:29 AM
knurkl knurkl is offline
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Smile

You can also make this device yourself, which might save you some cash.. Checkout
http://home.inreach.com/geewhiz/carb.htm

The info on the O2 sensor is somewhere halfway down the page.
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  #23  
Old 02-08-2000, 04:42 PM
Speedy#1 Speedy#1 is offline
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HAY Knurkl all i can say is WOW!!!That will give my printer a work out THANKS!!!
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  #24  
Old 02-08-2000, 08:41 PM
azazello azazello is offline
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speedy,

"stoich" comes from stoichiometry, which is a branch of chemistry that deals with calculating the ammounts of substances involved in chemical reactions. basically, it's just a fancy word for ratio.

if you want better resolution than just looking at 5 or 6 LEDs, you can hook up a multimeter to the oxygen sensor like described in the link knurkl posted. this worked well for me and i didn't have to spend much money, just bought an O2 sensor and wired it up to my DMM. granted you might not want to ride around with your Fluke sittin on your dash, but it gets the job done!
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  #25  
Old 02-09-2000, 01:40 AM
PRO PRO is offline
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Hey speedy,here are some #s based on my single gas analyzer,remember these are for hi-performance and 4800ft of elevation,idle 14.3-14.7,cruise 13.4-13.9,wot12.7-12.9.Actually the best way to monitor a/f mix is with a EGT sensor,Exhaust gas temp sensor because it removes the chemical action and burn that is still taking place in the manifold,but a $20 O2 and a $20 DVOM from radio shack and your in buisness.Set for around 450mv at cruise and 800mv at wot...PRO..
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  #26  
Old 02-09-2000, 06:02 AM
Speedy#1 Speedy#1 is offline
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I went to sears and bought a new vac gage today my old one took a crap on me but their DVOM's seem like to much money so i'll go to the shack tomorrow and United auto part's .this should be a easy way to go on all my cars,ever since i ripped out the lean burn on the new Yorker i can't get it dialed in properly so i will start the new millennium out on the right foot.I got to THANK all you guy's for all the information that could have took me months to figure out on my own.I don't know to much about all the new car's that's why i went back to school.
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  #27  
Old 02-09-2000, 03:44 PM
Brian Brian is offline
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Speedy# 1 & Mr Belvedere,

Thanks for the comments and glad I could help. MoPower to yea!

PRO,

I’m confused about your mv information. I have been told as others here have stated that the readings I get are right on at 14:7 only. If your are correct, the gauges should be able to tell me much more than accurate at stoich. So what gives here? Like I stated, I am using a ‘best guess’. At least I’m never lean. So in that respect I’m heading in the right direction.

A few more questions:
1) Would different motors want different A/F for max power or does every motor want the same range.

2) Do induction systems, heads and camshaft selection effect the ‘ideal’ A/F for a motor?

3) Will maximum torque and horse power reading both be achieved with the same A/F?

I hope these are good questions that have simple answers. Well, that may not be possible. Here is one more question kind of off the track:

When I dynoed my motor, I noticed that the curve had a dip or ‘flat spot’ in it at around 5000Rpm’s. This occurred for only about 200 Rpm’s, but why? I can under stand that the curve would flatten out at the top and then start rolling over the top, but what causes the curve to go flat and then pick up again?

I also noticed this occurred in an article of MOPAR Muscle when they dynoed a Viper and a Hemi to compare the rear wheel horsepower of each. The hemi had a nice curve to it even if it didn’t have the maximum numbers that the Viper did. But the Viper had a big dip in it’s curve above maximum torque, if I remember correctly. Then it again started pulling higher numbers. Who can explain this? I would think this would effect acceleration.

Anyone care to take a stab at these questions?

------------------
1971 Duster 340 'RTS'
1999 Durango 360
http://www.damnimcool.com/Brian/

[This message has been edited by Brian (edited Februar
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  #28  
Old 02-09-2000, 04:22 PM
River River is offline
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http://home.inreach.com/geewhiz/carb.htm This page has great info as well as a chart that shows millivolts/AF ratio. definitely interesting at least.
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