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  #1  
Old 02-25-2008, 11:08 PM
Texas-Duster Texas-Duster is offline
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Default 537HP Small Block

Well...today we're proud to announce another successful birth of a 408 Mopar using the tiny Edelbrock head. All under 6000RPM! Mostly everything is off-the-shelf parts. Heads are ported and do incorporate pushrod sleeves.

537HP@5800RPM
515TQ@4900RPM
Pump Gas
1-5/8" TTI Header
HP850 Carburetor
Solid Roller (10.5:1 Compression)

Dyno run is posted on Youtube under user ID TLIRacing
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  #2  
Old 02-26-2008, 12:12 AM
3404spdvaliant 3404spdvaliant is offline
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Hey right on !
So you had to sleave the Eddelbroke push rod hole in the head to get the #s?
Say what cam/head flow you got as I'm also building a 408.
Just a lil interested to know.
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  #3  
Old 02-26-2008, 04:15 AM
DartGT66 DartGT66 is offline
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Didn't find any mopar dyno video there, only one ford and a SBC.

Anyway, about a month ago we run ours in the dyno, and I was a bit disappointed at the numbers. Most likely a couple fo changes will bring it closer to your figures. Our's is a 4" stroke 360, demon 650 carb, crosswind intake, home ported Edelbrock heads, and a solid flat tappet cam, of course pump gas + 3" exhaust with mufflers. It made the best numbers at 468 hp at 5900 and 487 ft/lb at 3900. We didn't have much tuning parts with us, tried a couple of different spacers and with two different headers; a set of 2" primary fenderwells and a set of cheapo 1 5/8's, that were dinges & smashed in to the ground. Also had a bigger carb, a modified 750, but it didn't help as it was, and we didn't want to start tuning it. I really have my doubpts about the intake, it sits very uneven on both sides like the angles doesn't match. We will propably change it to a victor 340, and build 1 3/4" primary headers about 36" length. I guess the intake will help the peak hp, and the headers will help all over not to loose much low end with the single plane.
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  #4  
Old 02-26-2008, 09:33 AM
Texas-Duster Texas-Duster is offline
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Default Norway

This motor is headed to Norway next week...close to you up there?

I've built hundreds of motors with both the import china intakes and Edelbrocks. Both need quite a bit of porting to match up to any decent head job. Yes...the import intakes all experience a shift in the core that requires porting...let me clarify..."You have to port those china intakes". I am not kidding when I mention that they're a mess.

Now with the SBM, the Edelbrock stuff is also very small in port size. We didn't loose any taper in the intake by porting it up about 4-inches or so from the outlet of the intake port.

My preference? I prefer the import intakes as they don't require as much metal removal as the Edelbrocks, at least from the small block stand-point from Mopar to SBC.
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  #5  
Old 02-26-2008, 09:35 AM
Texas-Duster Texas-Duster is offline
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tliracing .com/ video/ SS2 .wmv is the address to the video shot until I get it uploaded
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  #6  
Old 02-26-2008, 09:40 AM
Texas-Duster Texas-Duster is offline
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Default Head Numbers

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3404spdvaliant View Post
Hey right on !
So you had to sleave the Eddelbroke push rod hole in the head to get the #s?
Say what cam/head flow you got as I'm also building a 408.
Just a lil interested to know.
2.02/1.60 Ferrea COMP Plus valves w/5/16" Stems, 50-degree valve job (6-angle), pushrod sleeves, Flowed 320cfm@0.600" on Intake (way more than our goal at 290cfm), and induced some ramp to the exhaust valve off the sparkplug protrusion. Probably about 40-50 hours in the heads alone. Intake was ported to match off head port size.

That was all with a 1-5/8" TTI Stepped header as well.

Cam was a "Confidential" grind from a "Confidential" grinder. Solid roller, standard firing order, 110LSA, max.lift 0.595"...duration all under 250. IMHO we did not have enough cam because this head should have given us close to 580HP. But the client wanted 93-octane 24/7 without any potential problems with detonation.
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  #7  
Old 02-26-2008, 10:00 AM
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rumblefish360 rumblefish360 is offline
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T D;

Engine sounds nice. Questions for you.........

How much area is gained with the pushrod sleaved?

This engine was done with a RPM/China knock off etc....dual plane intake?
(I didn't see a definitive mention.)

Did you happen to have or would like to try a shorter tube header like a Hooker Super Comp?

Is the dyno machine a known stingy dyno?
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  #8  
Old 02-26-2008, 10:17 AM
DartGT66 DartGT66 is offline
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Yes, Norway is pretty near. Seems your buildup was way more serious than ours. What really confused me was, that the engien didn't seem to like the bigger carb at all, although it already created some vacuum in the intake with the 650 at higher rpm. I really don't know, the intake waa gasket mathced, but we didn't check wether both banks were correctly spaced. And bolted on, one size sits high, and the other low, can be seen by eye, so that there is definitely some mislocation/incorrect angles. Just realized a couple of days after the dyno, that in our neighbour garage there was a LD340, victor 340 and a M1 single plane on the shelf, could have borrowed them and quit guessing. Anyway, I'm sure the smaller primary headers alone will help through the whole range, and some 470 hp and almost 500 lb-ft for a guys first engine build up really isn't that bad either. I'm quite sure the performance of the light Dart 4 D sedan will keep him happy at least for a couple of days.
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  #9  
Old 02-26-2008, 11:36 AM
3404spdvaliant 3404spdvaliant is offline
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Yea I would think that a 830-850cfm carb would work alot better along with
1 3/4 primary headers.
I assume your talking about the Cross wind manifold.
I've heard the eddelbrokes are a lil short on port volume for the 408-426 strkr.
Man and a solid roller? Thats the sh*t there.
I'm building a 408 w/KB hyper pistons floating h-beams and nodular crank
from Ohio crankshaft. I bought it back when kit was $950+internal bal-shpg.
I plan on either running the MP .528 w/1.6 or the MP.557 w/1.6.
I have the ld340 but it's a tad to small for this motor so I'll probably run the m1-excelerator single plane. Heads are what I'm looking for now W2's if I
can find a good deal on econos.
So thats why I ask. ANY ONE SELLING ANY W2's?
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  #10  
Old 02-26-2008, 01:17 PM
Texas-Duster Texas-Duster is offline
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Default Super Victor- Intake

Quote:
Originally Posted by rumblefish360 View Post
T D;

Engine sounds nice. Questions for you.........

How much area is gained with the pushrod sleaved?

This engine was done with a RPM/China knock off etc....dual plane intake?
(I didn't see a definitive mention.)

Did you happen to have or would like to try a shorter tube header like a Hooker Super Comp?

Is the dyno machine a known stingy dyno?
Area gained? Can't really give out specifics but I will say that it is required to make any reasonable power over 500HP. Intake is a Super Victor with 4" of port work moving inward. Didn't touch anything more on it.

Might make more power with a larger header but would need to put more cam in it. She falls off the torque at 5900RPM real hard.

Our dyno is often accused of being under-powered. All I know is that when my flowbench shows 320cfm with a 400cid motor we're typically around X amount of HP. Sort of balance for our program not to be compared with other dynos.
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  #11  
Old 02-26-2008, 01:21 PM
Texas-Duster Texas-Duster is offline
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Default W2's Rock!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3404spdvaliant View Post
Heads are what I'm looking for now W2's if I
can find a good deal on econos.
So thats why I ask. ANY ONE SELLING ANY W2's?
Definitely a smart choice despite the fact they're cast iron. Run the T&D shafts to match and you've got a strong package. I have an aluminum intake dual plane for the W2 head if interested. PM me for details.
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  #12  
Old 02-27-2008, 01:29 PM
3404spdvaliant 3404spdvaliant is offline
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With flow being the same, you have to raise the compression a full point w/allum to make the same power iron heads will make.
So for me thats one less thing I gotta change.
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  #13  
Old 02-28-2008, 02:57 AM
DartGT66 DartGT66 is offline
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That's not true. Aluminum heads can handle more CR with the same octane, but in practice there is no difference in power if the heads are otherwise the same. There have been test done to prove this, some manufacturers offer the same heads both in cast iron and aluminum (dart some SBC heads, and Indy 440-1 and 440C heads), and when CNC ported, it's as close as you can get, and no pwer difference with the same compression ratio. If you really could get more power with cast iron heads than aluminum, they would be way more widely used in racing applications, propably even in Pro Stock. They use cast iron blocks instead of aluminum for that very reason, more rigid and more power despite of the weight disadvantage.
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  #14  
Old 02-28-2008, 03:12 AM
3404spdvaliant 3404spdvaliant is offline
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Flame travel,thermal conductivity?
You may have missed what I was saying.
Octane requirements aside,
You take a 440 10.1 w/ iron head flow 275cfm,
then put on aluminum heads that flow 275cfm you would have to raise
compression to 11.1 to make the same hp you made w/iron heads w/10.1
Yes aluminum transfers heat faster then iron & will tolerate more compression then iron limited by octane.
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  #15  
Old 02-28-2008, 07:53 AM
DartGT66 DartGT66 is offline
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No I didn't. The tests I was talking about have been done with the same compression ratio, and gave the same power. I'm aware of those theories, but the practice hasn't supported them in those tests. I have also used aluminum heads myself with low compression ratios, where according to the same theories tehy shouldnät work worth ,,, hm, well, but they do. If the claim that you need 1 point more cr to be equal with cast iron heads were true, I think that should affect the cam choices and other things too (basically meaning that with a certain CR you should use a smaller cam with aluminum heads, than with iron heads)
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  #16  
Old 03-02-2008, 09:10 AM
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rumblefish360 rumblefish360 is offline
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Texas, thanks. I also don't wanna start racing your dyno against others as well as any formulas you come up with. It is a bad practice. Your dyno says X amount of power. That's good enuff for me.
Thanks for the info.

DartGT, good thoughts there. I think it was ethier car craft or hot rod that did the iron vs. aluminum head testings. They used a Chevy engine (S/B) and hummm, mind fart, umm, I'm thinking dart heads. Both factory replacement type of heads just made in both metals. Otherwise, near identical.
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  #17  
Old 03-02-2008, 11:44 AM
3404spdvaliant 3404spdvaliant is offline
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Smile

Sorry if I'm not familiar with that test I don't always keep up with magazines.
Was every thing exactly the same power wise & RPM wise, and were those heads exactly the same? I mean exactly the same, cc's, flow #'s .000 & up how about the weather? I'v seen far different flow #'s,cc's in the same castings before ,were they closed chamber as well?
I've seen plenty of tests with head swapping & they almost always f with something else defeating the purpose of the test, like ''we threw on some ported heads and look at the hp gain of course we also threw on a 150 cfm
more carb & 1.6 to take advantage of the extra head flow''. Head theory aside I'm sure you've seen this kind of example before with magazines.
Don't get me wrong for if some body can show me something I don't know I'm all ears.
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  #18  
Old 03-02-2008, 12:14 PM
N.R.F.D. N.R.F.D. is offline
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ya please give that info up i want to see it im all eyes
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  #19  
Old 03-02-2008, 02:04 PM
DartGT66 DartGT66 is offline
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Thye haven't been magazine articles, but independent tests, and I donät have the strict results, only the conclusions. They kind of support my own hobbyist results, I have run aluminum heads with realatively low CR's , and it doesn't "kill" the engine
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  #20  
Old 03-02-2008, 06:21 PM
3404spdvaliant 3404spdvaliant is offline
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[QUOTE= I have run aluminum heads with realatively low CR's , and it doesn't "kill" the engine.[/QUOTE]

No one mentioned that aluminum heads would ''kill'' an engine.
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  #21  
Old 03-03-2008, 03:45 AM
DartGT66 DartGT66 is offline
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The first aluminum heads I bought, Stage VI's in 1991, had instructions that adviced "Don't run with lower CR's". But I don't think this is worth arguing much, it's not going to be solved here. If you feel you have an advantage using cast iron heads with a certain CR over aluminum heads with the same CR, then be happy about your adavantage and let it show at the track.
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  #22  
Old 03-03-2008, 09:08 AM
Texas-Duster Texas-Duster is offline
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It's all about the BTU exchange! It's like comparing a fast Charger to a fast Duster...it's how you set them up.
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