Stupid Question: Why doesn't Chrysler Build

[Walkercolt]

A full sized SUV on the Ram Chassis with either a 6.4L Hemi or a Cummins and call it a De Soto? Expeditions are selling, Navigators are selling, Escalades, and Suburbans are selling, so why not? These people don't give a damn about fuel economy, or price of the vehicle...they want what they want, and have the money to spend. Since the new style Rams first came out, I've wondered about this. Suburbans with that 500+CID V-8 only get about 6-7 MPG. The owners don't care. They can tow their travel/horse trailer/big boat, and to heck with it. The name-plate alone would generate sales. GM's losing money on 90% of the models they build. Why? They aren't what people want. People don't want dinky little cars with 90HP motors that a kid on a moped can out-run. I had hoped Chrysler would take the Magnum platform and build a sedan on it. The wagon hasn't sold too well, but a real FULL-SIZED sedan would. If nothing else, every police department in America would buy them. I guess I'm not smart enough to be in marketing. But I'm smart enough to read a NADA resale value book. All the little GM's take at least a 50% hit the first year...the four-bangers take as high as a 80% hit. But a three year-old Ford Excursion only drops about 20% from original MSRP.

[peg leg]

Developement money would be intense. The feds just made 35 MPG average a mandate. The market is going to small, not big. Fuel is about the cost of yuppies favorite bottled water.
Chrysler is in fact building a hybrid, I believe it's a Durango, in another year. Same system as the one GM, Chrysler and Mercedes developed together. It's now available in the GM SUV.

[1973Swinger]

Originally Posted by Walkercolt

I had hoped Chrysler would take the Magnum platform and build a sedan on it. The wagon hasn't sold too well, but a real FULL-SIZED sedan would. If nothing else, every police department in America would buy them.

The Chrysler 300 and Dodge Chargers are already on that platform and they sell very well. Quite a few police departments have and are currently going to Chargers. Where ya been?

[bjoehandley]

To some extent Chrysler could really use a another Aries/Reliant or Neon type car for those looking for an inexpensive, efficent commuter car.

[Walkercolt]

Well, the Magnum is bigger than the Charger. Longer bumper to bumper and longer wheelbase. The Charger ain't much bigger than my 1974 Dodge Dart 4 door sedan. I don't believe it's as wide, inside. Hybrides are a farce. The batteries cost so much to replace, after 5 years, the batteries cost more than the car's worth. Ask any Honda or Prius owner that needs batteries. SUV's are still exempt from CAFE standards, and yeah, it'd cost some money to tool up a full-sized SUV, but it would sell. Yeah, I was sad to see the Neon go too. Had one for a loaner for nearly a month, and it was fun to drive. The SRT4 version must be a blast. Not sure Chrysler knows what it wants to do, now that Diamler-Benz is gone. They're making Jeeps in every concevable size, but they don't know what to do with cars. Little cars are great, 'til your hit by something bigger and heavier, then you want my '58 Imperial. And just as fast as gas prices go up, so do the HP ratings on cars. An Accord with 270HP? Mine had 90. Chebby's got that 500+CID V-8 in trucks, they claim 525HP...then it gets about 6-7MPG. Horsepower still sells cars. BMW sold more V-12's last year than Chevy did 4 cly. Caviler's. I dunno...

[lil red rick]

My neice owned a Tahoe, got 20 mpg on the highway. Her dad traded it for a new sedan that, quote, "only got 5 mpg more", but he pays for the car/gas! We had a 2000 Durango SLT 4X4, ate me out of house and home when gas was half what it is now! My wife had to drive it too much, but we couldn't afford two car payments! So it went the way of the Dodo....But now my daughter drives so we are considering another one just for trips. The Durango is large enough for us! Rick.

[1973Swinger]

Here are the specs for the Magnum and Charger:

Magnum
-Overall Length 197.7 inches
-Overall Width 74.1 inches
-Wheelbase 120 inches
-Rear Track (widest) 63.1 inches

Charger
-Overall Length 200.1 inches
-Overall Width 74.5 inches
-Wheelbase 120 inches
-Rear Track (widest) 63.1 inches

As you can see, the Charger is actually a bit bigger than the Magnum, which I think is due to a longer front overhang, but they are the exact same platform. They are actually (the 300 and Charger) pretty damn big inside. One of my coworkers has the 300 and I have ridden in it, its bigger inside than my 99 Intrepid was. Sorry, but the days of the land yacht cars are long gone except in the niche ultra luxury market. Even the 7 series BMWs and 500 Benzs arent as big as say a mid 70s Caprice or Big C body Mopar.

Hybrids are not the answer, I agree. BJoe is right, and Ive said it before myself, Chrysler needs to bring something like the Neon back. I still cant understand why they got rid of it and put the Caliber in its place, its not even the same type of car. I had an 03 Neon R/T that was an awesome little car until it got wrecked. As far as the HP wars go, you wont see it happening for much longer. Sure the V6s and 4 bangers are going to continue to get faster with technology and forced induction, but the real HP wars are going to go away in the next few years. That is, unless they are able to produce alternative fuel vehicles that have the power.

[bjoehandley]

I do think hybrids will become viable once they get the whole plug-in/diesel locomotive style power train thing taken care of and switch to the lithium batteries and maybe mix in some high compression or boost E-85 and/or Bio Diesel compatible engines. The technolagy is still in it's infancy so there more that can be done as things get developed and become cheaper through mass prodution. That being said, I don't know that those will be completely viable for interstate use, but would be great for most of the driving I do and even work well for trips into down town Chicago during rush hour (now that's a waste of gas, trust me!) I can't see a new monster SUV really being a big seller, remember what happened to the Excursion!

[Dick]

Originally Posted by 1973Swinger

Hybrids are not the answer, I agree. BJoe is right, and Ive said it before myself, Chrysler needs to bring something like the Neon back.

Have you forgotten about the (at least, for now) PT Cruiser?

[peg leg]

Hybrids, as they currently are, do not appeal to people who look into their purchases with a jaundiced eye. The overpriced, over hyped Prius has a main battery life of 100, 000 miles, and costs $9000 to replace. Equally frightening is the danger of serious electrical burns and fires from cutting through the roof rail, where the wires run, to extract a passenger in a collision.
The diesel hybrid makes more sense to me. The engine can do most of the work because of it's inherent efficiency, dramatically increase mileage, and reduce the size and cost of the battery.
My real favorite, hydrogen fuel, is a way off, but makes more sense to me than anything. Of course, the Sierra Club will denounce it as making too much water on the pavement from it's exhaust, and dirtying their cars..

[1973Swinger]

Originally Posted by Dick

Have you forgotten about the (at least, for now) PT Cruiser?

Nope. What I think they should be building is an econo sedan like the Neon where they can hop it up to stay with the Import scene (R/T and SRT4). The new Caliber SRT4 is ok, but they arent really in the same class as the Cobalt/G5 or Civic, etc. I just think they are really losing out in that market.

[1973Swinger]

Originally Posted by peg leg

Hybrids, as they currently are, do not appeal to people who look into their purchases with a jaundiced eye. The overpriced, over hyped Prius has a main battery life of 100, 000 miles, and costs $9000 to replace. Equally frightening is the danger of serious electrical burns and fires from cutting through the roof rail, where the wires run, to extract a passenger in a collision.
The diesel hybrid makes more sense to me. The engine can do most of the work because of it's inherent efficiency, dramatically increase mileage, and reduce the size and cost of the battery.
My real favorite, hydrogen fuel, is a way off, but makes more sense to me than anything. Of course, the Sierra Club will denounce it as making too much water on the pavement from it's exhaust, and dirtying their cars..

I couldnt agree more, except on the Hydrogen cars being that far off. GM is talking about going full blown production in the next few years. Dont be surprised to see filling stations for them start popping up here and there. To me, hydrogen is going to be where things go. I dont know what thats gonna do for performance vehicles though. I can also see the truck Diesel market going through the roof. Look at Europe and how the sales of diesels have shot through the roof with both cars and trucks.

[Dick]

Originally Posted by 1973Swinger

Nope. What I think they should be building is an econo sedan like the Neon where they can hop it up to stay with the Import scene (R/T and SRT4). The new Caliber SRT4 is ok, but they arent really in the same class as the Cobalt/G5 or Civic, etc. I just think they are really losing out in that market.

Isn't the PT GTS the same powerplant as the SRT4? I believe they can be kitted with all the same performance goodies as the Neon.

Having had a '95 Neon and an '06 PT, I will attest to the fact that the PT is much more comfortable and much easier to get in and out of. It can also be dressed up to look pretty serious. Between the two, the PT wins hands down, IMHO.

[1973Swinger]

Im just not much of a PT guy I guess. I like the Neons. Lighter, handle better and IMO looked way better. Not to mention cheaper, feature for feature. I did look at a PT GTS Turbo when I bought the R/T, but I didnt like it.

[71dart666]

Originally Posted by 1973Swinger

Nope. What I think they should be building is an econo sedan like the Neon where they can hop it up to stay with the Import scene (R/T and SRT4). The new Caliber SRT4 is ok, but they arent really in the same class as the Cobalt/G5 or Civic, etc. I just think they are really losing out in that market.

I think you are right about that, the Caliber may have more utility and may be a bit safer and comfortable than the Neon but its ugly and the bulky look does not work on a small car the same way it works for the Magnum or the Ram lets say. I think Dodge would have owned the segment if they kept the Neon platform, tweaked it and refined it a bit and maybe added MyGig and the bells and whistles. Then they could have used the 1.8 liter 140 hp motor as the base engine, used with a CVT from the Caliber you would get great gas mileage. Then had a 170 hp 2.4 R/T version with a 5 or 6 speed stick, then the 280 hp Caliber SRT-4 engine with a 6 speed manual would have made a monster of a sport compact car that would be shaming anything anywhere near its class.

[bjoehandley]

I can't see it being toooo tough to revise the Caliber platform into a small passenger type car instead of just a bunch of phoney, half assed Mini-SUV wanna-be's. They could even offer the AWD on it as a Impreza fighter! They could even use the platform to make a better PT Cruiser replacement than the Caliber has been. For these, the lack of Dahlmer-Benz management might be to their advantage, so long as current management don't fug things up as badly.....................

[1973Swinger]

Im not saying that I dont like the Caliber,it is a cool little ride. Im just saying that they shouldnt have gotten rid of the Neon altogether. 71Dart, youve got it right, and so do you BJoe, they could bring the Neon back and just re-body the Caliber platform to do it. That way, they could make both cars and have a good choice for buyers in the econo market as well as the sport compact market. Look at how well brands like Toyota, Honda, etc are doing with their small car lineup.

[6MTDriver]

I agree it would be a total no-brainer without the 35mpg mandate. Even though that won't go into effect for a while, there is no point to invest costs in development even if there is a reasonable platform to borrow from. A decade from now, it will be useless technology. To put things in perspective, even Ford is looking at forced induction to replace their higher output engines. If I were chief developer, I'd consider going down the road of an Expedition/Tahoe competitor based on a lower output, more fuel efficient system. It can be done, and there is still a large market with a strong demand for SUVs despite rising gas prices. After all, you don't see mom dropping off the kids to soccer practice in a Prius, do you?

[Walkercolt]

Well one market I see is the horse people. Many of them have Excursions towing big horse trailers. Also the RVer's and big boat people. The Excursion's gone leaving the Suburban and the Denali with that 500+CID V-8 that gets 6 MPG, maybe. The current Durango with a Hemi is a good vehicle but it's towing capacity is limited. Yeah I heard Ford is looking at Roots blowers for their 5.4L V-8. We played the turbo-gas game, and it wasn't worth the extra effort. For deisels, supercharging is a must for power and efficentency. With the crap we call gasoline today, it's got problems. Pick-ups are getting bigger and bigger. Ford's got a duece and a half pick-up(F-550) and Dodge is gearing up a Ram 500 and 600. It just looks like the truck chassis with an SUV body on it would be a natural. The Mega Cab seems like an "almost SUV" with a semi-small truck bed. I guess that's why I'm not in marketing.

[nhdriver]

Originally Posted by Dick

Isn't the PT GTS the same powerplant as the SRT4? I believe they can be kitted with all the same performance goodies as the Neon.

Having had a '95 Neon and an '06 PT, I will attest to the fact that the PT is much more comfortable and much easier to get in and out of. It can also be dressed up to look pretty serious. Between the two, the PT wins hands down, IMHO.

I have a Neon, my wife drives a P/T. Although the P/T is more comfortable and easier to get in & out of, The P/T is way heavier and gets less MPG then the neon. The P/T is on it's way out (of production) The 2.4 engine is only used in the P/T. (note: the 2.4 in the P/T is not the same 2.4 used in the caliber & they don't interchange)
Chrysler misread the market & now they don't have a fuel efficient vehicle to sell. Now w/ gas approching $4. per gallon they are in a poor position in the market. Had they kept the Neon & made a diesel version that would get 50 MPG it would sell like hotcakes. They do make a diesel P/T thats sold in Europe it gets 46 MPG. Why don't they sell it here?

[bjoehandley]

Probably can't find people willing to buy one this late in the production cycle, and early in the cycle gas prices weren't high enough to justify selling it here, plus GM's cluster**** of a diesel from the last gas crunch didn't help much either...........

[6MTDriver]

I definitely agree there is a market for this type of vehicle, regardless of gas prices and fuel efficiency. Those who are towing boats, trailers, etc need raw horsepower and torque. I'm in full agreement that this would most definitely sell, but to invest in this program knowing full well that it would come to a screeching halt in a few years wouldn't be the best idea in my opinion. The long term losses to engineer new technology would overshadow the initial boost in profits.

[moparman92]

Originally Posted by nhdriver

I have a Neon, my wife drives a P/T. Although the P/T is more comfortable and easier to get in & out of, The P/T is way heavier and gets less MPG then the neon. The P/T is on it's way out (of production) The 2.4 engine is only used in the P/T. (note: the 2.4 in the P/T is not the same 2.4 used in the caliber & they don't interchange)
Chrysler misread the market & now they don't have a fuel efficient vehicle to sell. Now w/ gas approching $4. per gallon they are in a poor position in the market. Had they kept the Neon & made a diesel version that would get 50 MPG it would sell like hotcakes. They do make a diesel P/T thats sold in Europe it gets 46 MPG. Why don't they sell it here?

Because alot of europes vehicle's regulations are way diffrent. Just like I could take my dart to germany but once I get it there for some stupid reason I can never bring it home again.

[6MTDriver]

Europe seems to be much more diesel-friendly, doesn't it?

[nhdriver]

I.M.O. The high price of gasoline made diesels popular in europe a long time ago. Also, the rotton Olds diesel experiance was so long ago that I don't think that 's still a factor. I have talked to a few VW diesel owners & they love them especially the newer ones w/ turbo's.

[6MTDriver]

I have two friends that drive Jetta TDI's and I haven't heard any complaints either

[keith mopar]

If they made a new deisel RamCharger like they use to in Mexico it would haul people to boats. I don't think it would be overly costly. Dam they Made this Ram Charger for Mexican sale and not in the US or Canada.

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s.../Ramchar06.jpg

[keith mopar]

Don't know why the pic didn't show up properly, I posted the img link from photobucket in the message.
[img]http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s.../Ramchar06.jpg[/img]

[6MTDriver]

Hmm...thats pretty interesting, never seen that before

[Walkercolt]

Yup! With a 6.1L Hemi the Border Patrol uses 'em painted light green. Boy do the Fed's love Chargers with 6.1's. Everybody from FBI, ATF, FAA, NSA(they don't exist though), has 'em. 90+% that dark metallic grey. They put the lights inside rear and in the grill(clever). Okla. Hi-Po and Tulsa Police and Sheriff's got some too. In a test, the Charger outran(1/4 and top-end) the Camero's the Hi-Po's have, buy a wiiiide margin. Chevy guys' ready to sh*t a brick! Tussa Police want to replace all the Crown Vic's and Chebby's left be we ain't got the money. $46,000 for a cop car(that's without radio and computer) is alot of money. Can't pin them down, but ready for the street, upwards of $56,000 a car. TV camera, 'puter, radio, cop equiptment, lights and crap runs about 10 grand a car, as close as they'll admit. They claimed 425HP in the paper for the "interceptor package". I wonder.