couple 440 questions

[bulldog426]

i'm gettin a 440 out of an old rv, i'll get a casting number next day or so. what do i have to do put it in a 72 charger that came with a 318 originally?? and while i have it out i'm going to throw new gaskets, and a cam and intake on it, so what would be a good intake/cam to put on it without having to change valvesprings, and pushrods, and all that stuff?? i'm also putting in an 83/4 rear. and i have a couple gear setups for it. i'm wanting something to go cruise around town on the weekend nights, go to the track everyonce in a while. mainly just blow some 5.0s and camaros off the road.
i also got a 2800 converter that i originally got for a 360, been balanced for a 360, so would it work behind the 440?

[valiant64]

For starters you'll need the BB mounting brackets/insulators. The late 60's -early 70's iron 4bbl intake is pretty good, or Edelbrock Performer RPM, or Holley Street Dominator. If you can find one, the old Edelbrock CH4B is good as well. As far as the cam, call some cam mfrs. & tell them your set up & intentions with the car. That is the best way to get a cam that'll work with your specific combo. With the gear selection, 3.55's are a good compromise for street/highway & some strip use. If no or little highway use is planned, 3.91-4.10 gears are good. The 72' Charger is heavy & needs some gearing to get moving quickly. With the converter, it depends if it will handle the torque output of the 440 vs. 360 & whether or not your 440 is internal or external balance. The stall speed needs to work in conjunction with cam, gears, vehicle weight, rear tire diameter. The cam mfr or converter mfr should be able to point you in the right direction as far as what stall speed you will need. Remember with high stall converters to always use an auxilliary trans cooler in series with the radiator trans cooler. High stall speed + high trans temp= short trans life & inconsistent shifts. Are you getting the trans for the BB as well? SB trans will not fit BB.

[DartGT66]

The year of the engine vould be important. If it's pre '72 , it will have a forged crank and a higher compression ratio than the newer engines. Anyway, your chragers K-member should be the same for both the 440 and 318. You just need the engine mounts and insulators for the car. Transmount is the same, but of course you need the big block trans, and if your car cam originally with a 904 trans, you also need a shorter driveshaft with a 727 yoke. But since you are converting to another rear axle, you need a different length driveshaft anyway.

If the engine is '72 or older forged crank non hp version, you should be able to use the 360 converter with removing the balance weight from the converter face. If it's an engine with HP rods, or a newer cast crank engine, you have to use the correct external balance for them. You can identify what you have by looking at the damper; cast crank dampers have a text "use with 440 cast crank only" in front, in the weight eccentric. The hp cranks have a smilar style "unbalance weight", but no text. Check these out to help the identification: http://www.440source.com/dampers.htm If it's a cast crank engine, B&M offers balanced flex plates for it, and after that you can use a zero balanced converter, just like with a regular forged crank. I think B&M also offers a different plate for the hp, or "six pack" crank /rod assy, but I'm not sure. Anyway, Mopar Performance offers abalance weight kit that comes with the weights needed for different engiens, and instructions where they must be welded to the converter, #P4120241.

As far as engine mods, those also depends of the year of the engine. but the first thing is to make sure that the engine is in good condition, so that it can handle the increased cylinder pressures. So, perform a leak down test. Some leak to teh down stairs is aaceptable, but none to the cylinder heads. If the engien is a newer low compression model, you have to be very careful with the cam, unless you raise the CR. I think that at this point, it would be very wise to take the cylinder ehads off, measure nad calculate the true compression ratio, and have a performance valve job done, & mill the heads to raise CR, if desired. Wih an extremely low CR, like in the newer 440's, the engine doesn't respond to bigger cams etc, it will just loose low end while not picking much at the top. I would also consider pocket porting the heads while at it, or look for used performance heads. Nowadays, that everyone wants aluminum heads, you may be able to find great deals of rebuilt, ported and milled iron heads. If you can get the CR close to 9's, use a cam with around 230-240 degrees at .050", and a RPM intake. With headers, performance exhaust and good heads and the 2800 stall converter, you should be very much able to hold your own in the streets against the newer perofrmance cars.

[bulldog426]

today i looked and it's a 77 model, now i'm thinking it's just a boatanchor, an old timer told me they make a steel, or copper head gasket that is .30" thinner than stock gaskets and it gives you a compression ratio, but i'm thinking that sounds like jerry rigging.
i've also got a good 383 out of an old 64-67 polara would i be better off putting it in the car?? i'm guessing it would be forged?? and higher compression being older.

[bulldog426]

would a set of 906 heads help the 440?

[DartGT66]

Factory steel shim gaskets are .020" thick, so the copper gaskets have a slight problem with being .030" thinner.
Basically, there's nothing wrong with a '77 440. It's a "new" engine with a cast crank and low compression ratio. The heads are good (452's), the block is good, the crank is good, the rods are good, all the basics are there. There is a problem with the compression ratio, like in all '72 and newer engines. The true CR is propably in the 7's. Here is what we did with such and engine years ago.
-hone job, new rings & bearings
-double roller timing chain
-MP 280/.474 hydraulic cam
-stock electronic ignition, MP quick advance springs
-heads homeported, MP porting template style job
-heads milled .060", true CR 8.6:1 with steel shims
-1 3/4" primary headers
-Torker 2 intake
-holley 3310 with yellow vacuum spring, red pump cam and 35 shooter

Thsi engine was in a '68 FURY III, that I believe weighed at least the same as your Charger. 2.5" dual exhaust with turbo mufflers, 11" converter, 3.23 gears in the rear and it run 13.8/104 mph on street tires.



The same engine& trans was later put in to a '73 A-body weighing 3550 lbs, and it run 12.35/113 with 245/60/14 M&H's.

I wouldn't bother with the old 383, it has got less than spectacular cylinder heads and more importantly, 57 cubic inches less. Then, if you rebuild the engine, only the sky is the limit, since all the good basic parts are already there. It's relatively easy and inexpensive to build a 500 hp reliable cast crank 440.

[bulldog426]

motor is out an rv, if that helps, was hardly ever driven, was parked most of it's life has 21,000 miles on the odometer, so it's a low milage engine. shaving the heads .060?? do i have to get shorter pushrods, or special valvesprings?? shaving the heads .060 and all you get is 8.6:1 compression?? was reading the engine specs on another mopar site, and it says that the 72 and up had around 8.2:1 compression from factory.
whats a red pump cam?? and a 35 shooter??

[bulldog426]

it's the pistons that make these low compression right?? wouldn't a set of good pistons help the compression?? was looking at summit and you can get a set of forged pistons for about 350 bucks.

[PistolGrip440-6]

Get yourself some closed chambered heads and flat mill them, maybe you can get into the upper 8s with the CR with a thin gasket.

Unfortuneately the "good" closed chambered heads are the 915s which are a little pricey, you can get the earlier design 516s that dont flow as well but if it gets you a point in compression when youre starting with high 7s its better for low end torque and youll still probably end up with more power because you can run a decent cam. You can get the 516s virtually free, most people discard them because of the slightly poorer flow, not substantial but enough and the heads we have dont flow much for 440 cubes as is. Maybe one of the resto cams or the Comp XE268 will fit the bill. Headers, Edelbrock RPM, and 750 or 800 with vacuum secondaries and she should be a strong runner on the street with a strong low end. Good luck with it.

If you have the cash do a rebuild with new pistons to up the compression or grab another 440.

A 440 built as I stated earlier will outrun the 383 you have and be alot of fun to drive, the pre 68 383s are basically stones, they have the 516 heads I mentioned earlier, a small cam, ect. The 440 will out torque it by a long shot and most 383s hardly have 9:1 compression as is. I dont even know what the pre '68 mills are supposed to have, but if its less than the advertised 9.7 that the '68 - '71s are supposed to have compression is only going to be in the upper 8s anyway. Good luck with it, no matter what its gonna be ALOT better than the 318.

[bulldog426]

so it would help if i pulled the 516 heads off the 383?? i got one boat anchor 383 that is froze up, with a set of 516 heads, and another 383 that is a good motor that has either 516 or 518s, which i imagine it is 516 because the 518s were max wedge heads, and i don't see how they would be on a 2 barrel 383
so the 516s were closed chamber and higher compression style heads, that will help raise the compression if i put it on the 440 right?? if i shave em .060 would i have to get shorter pushrods or deep valve relief pistons, or different valvesprings???

[bulldog426]

would i be better off building this .030 la series 360 with a set of magnum heads on top?? figuring a small block would be cheaper to build, and i've seen some impressive small blocks before.

[rampage_82]

Well if it were me, I'd definitely go with the 440, especially in a heavy car. If you look at it there are two ways to make power. You can build a psycho small block, that will make 500hp, but that will be a lot more expensive, and the rpm range will be alot higher than if you built a basic 440 that would make 500hp. In the long run, I think the 440 would be cheaper.

Also look at it this way, if you wanna take the word of a mudracer. I have a fairly mild 440 (10.5.1 CR .480" hyd. cam) in my truck (a 1982 D50), my buddy has a wicked full roller 13.5.1 CR 360, in an International Scout. My truck weighs 3800 lbs, the scout weighs 3400 lbs. I can run off and leave him in the bogs, because whereas he's turning 7,000 + rpms to make his power, I run up to 6,500 and then shift gears and continue to gain wheelspeed. When he tries to shift, he is out of his powerband, and it the gooey stuff just drags him down.

[rampage_82]

Oh BTW I think that unless you want to build the motor extremely cheaply, you'd be much better off getting good pistons to bump the CR, rather than milling the heads, whereas this would cause you to have to also mill the intake manifold, and probably go with adjustable rockers. I think your RV motor has the 452 heads (although they might have the extra water ports), but besides that point the 452 heads had the largest combustion chambers of any Big Block heads. If you have money to spend on the project, I think that the aftermarket is the only way to go on heads. Take it from me, I spent $1400, on my 906 heads, to get them built, ported, ect. because my class rules state that I have to run Factory casting iron heads, I would have been way ahead to just get some Eddy's or even those Stealth heads from 440source look pretty good. That's just my opinion though.

[ply6369]

66 383 325 hp 10:00-1 67 383 same 68 69 70 all 10:1 some two bbl mtrs were 9:20-1 looks as if all the way back to 63 383's had 10:1. except some two bbl eng,s. the heads were closed chambers until 68. don't think my book is wrong. its old like me!

[valiant64]

For a heavy car, stick with the 440. More torque than the 360 or 383 & more HP/torque potential for less cash. If you use the 516 head, install the 1.74 valve in place of the stock 1.60 valve at a minimum. Even better would be a good porting job & maybe even 2.14 I & 1.81 E valves depending on your build.

[bulldog426]

i aint trying to build a racecar. i just want it to have some a%^ i'm bout ready to burn the darn thing. i was looking in summit, and a set of pistons aren't that much for the 440, but the 360 parts are cheaper.

so with a good set of pistons, good cam, good intake, headers, should be pushing around the same power as an older style 440?

i aint trying to put a whole bunch of money in the engine. so spending $1500+ on just the heads isn't really in mind. i'm not trying to build a racecar, just a nice little street car that has some a%^. i'm trying to do it on a budget. if i were building something for the track i would put some cash in it, but i've got other projects, and i haven't ever put a big block in anything. and i want to get the car out of the shed, and on the road. my chevy buddies have cars they go ride around and cruise around and i don't have anything, so i get stuck ridin in a chevy, and it kinda got me wanting to get the charger on the road as quickly as possible, and on a budget, and still able to mash down and leave the 350s eatin my dust, which i figure shouldn't be too hard with a mopar to start with.

this is what i'm having in mind, that 77 440, well it's 77 on the side of the block so that means it's 78 right?? but that 440, a good set of pistons. summit has forged sealed power pistons flat top oe six pack pistons with 10.17 compression with 78.5 cc. chamber, for $343.60. then the forged sealed power 9.33 cr, with a 78.5cc closed chamber, or an 88cc open chamber for $295.60. but lose compression. then there's the keith black pistons i'm looking at here, but they aren't forged. for about the same price. the flat top for $313.99 with a 9.7-11.5-1 cr, but doesn't say what cc combustion chamber. then there is the KB step head with 9.9-11.9 cr, for $297.39. but they aren't forged pistons so won't be as tuff.
anyways what i have in mind is the 440, with some good pistons, with a cam and intake with a idle-5500 rpm range, a set of headers. then what to do for heads rember it's a budget build so would i be better with the heads off the 440 or the 383 heads, either way i'm sacrificing one for the other, with the 383 heads i'm sacrificing flow for compression, with the 440 heads i'm sacrificing compression for flow, but if i put good pistons it would help the compression right???? so let's say the 440 with some good pistons, with a edelbrock performer or performer eps, "i haven't seen the eps for a mopar in any magazine yet, only sbchevy sombody inform me if they do" headers, with the 440 heads on top.

[bulldog426]

i'm just going to put a stock motor with a small cam, and aluminum intake with headers in the car
if i put the 440 in, will the stock factory ac compressor off the 318 work?? i'm wanting to put the 440 in, but as far as getting everything to go in smoothly is what i'm thinking about, what kind of motor mounts do i need??? was checking with the parts house and the motor mounts for the 440 and 318 are the same motor mounts but i always thought the 440 took a different motor mount, also what kind of oil pan do i need??? would the oil pan off the 383 out of the polara work??

[valiant64]

I'd use a cam that has advertised duration of around 274 to 280 degrees, and keep the lift in the 450 to 480 range w/ a 110 LSA. These hyd cams should make good HP & torque while keeping the car daily driveable. If you were to do some porting, you could use more lift but since stock unported heads arent going to flow much beyond this, don't go crazy with the cam lift or you're just beating up the valvetrain for no reason with little to no gain. Use the Edelbrock Performer RPM intake, the regular Performer isnt much better than the stock intake. The 318 compressor will work, but you'll need the BB a.c. brackets to make it work. Use headers that have 1 3/4 or 1 7/8 primary tubes with 2 1/2" dual exhaust. I think you're confusing the engine mount brackets with the motor mount insulators. The mounts are the same, but the brackets are BB specific. Easy to find in the junkyard or ebay or other vendors. You'll also need the a.c. pulleys & idler set up which should be easy to find also. I have a couple sets. The oil pan should be a center sump BB pan, the pan off of the Polara will work. Hope this helps.

[PistolGrip440-6]

Well you have the 516 heads, toss those on (maybe have them flat milled if you want), get the thinnest head gasket that you can, and have your distributor agressively curved. Put an aftermarket intake or leave it stock if you want, toss on an 800 with vacuum secondaries, 1 3/4 cheapie summit headers, and maybe toss in one of the cheap summit cams. Theres two, neither are very big but someone Ive talked to on another forum has run 12.90s with the larger one in a pretty mild combo. Use 3.23 or 3.55 gears to take advantage of the low end and, and she'll blow the tires off without fuss and pull pretty well. You can use a stockish converter, or go with around 2600 or 2700 stall and it will probably really like that because the dynamic compression should start to pick up around there. Youll have to check the geometry of the pushrods and rockers I beleive and you may need to change the pushrods depending on how it turns out. Someone probably knows the limit for flat milling before a pushrod change is needed.

Enjoy it. It will have plenty of torque and that great Mopar big block rumble

[DartGT66]

The best way would be changin gthe pistons, however, while at it, it may be too temptating to do a few other things too, like at least changing the rod bolts, bearings, rings, balancing etc. etc, the list is never ending. Federal moguls forged six pac pistons would be a good choice, bringing the CR to about 9.4:1. you can match weight them with your old piston/pin set, and if the bores are good, just ball hone the cylinders, new rings and go. That would be the best way, and keep the cost reasonable. KB also offers some hypereutectis pistons that could be used, but they are lighter than the stockers, and require rebalancing fo teh reciprocating assembly.
Milling the heads .060" doesn't require pushrod change, mopar engines have a wide lifter adjusting range, and do not need exactly "correct" preloads. However, you have to mill also the intake faces of the heads, and use RTV in the corners of the valley plate. All this machining may end up costing the same as the piston change. As far as the closed chamber heads go, the last set I measured were 84cc while the open chambers are typically about 90cc. When milling, you remove 10 cc from the chamber for every .040" milled. With the closed chamber heads, it's only 7cc for .040" So, if you have a 84cc closed chamber, and a 88cc open chamber, and you mill both .060", you end up having a 73.5cc closed chamber, and a 73cc open chamber head.

[bulldog426]

i'm going with a performer intake, and a comp magnum cam, with a 224/224 duration at .050 with a .470/.470 lift with a 1800-5500 rpm range. thinking about calling summit and seeing if it's too late to order the rpm intake. summit brand headers.
i've got a guy to port the heads, only thing is around here i've seen a few people get their heads shave and they turn out lopsided. so i'm kinda weery of that. but if i find a good machinist i can trust i'll get them shaved. so which way would be best with a good port and port matching job?? possibly shaved "if i find the machinist to do it"

[PistolGrip440-6]

Cam sounds good, especially if the CR gets into the mid 8s. Whats the LSA?

The Performer vs Performer RPM is interesting everytime I hear someone argue it. Some people think if the engine isnt going to wind high that teh Performer will work better, but I dont beleive so. The RPM makes up for the very little bit it gives up at low RPM and I beleive even on 2 100% stock engines, built exactly the same with the only difference being one having a performer and one having the RPM I think the RPM would ET better. Thats just me though.

[valiant64]

agreed. the RPM is a killer intake for most any street/strip vehicle. cam looks pretty good for what you're doing, too.

[bulldog426]

i checked the casting numbers on the 383 heads and it's a 518 casting number which is a 426 max wedge head. which has 208/188 valves. so i'm putting them on there was just wondering why would a set of max wedge heads be on a 2bbl 383 was thinking maybe somebody had built a hotrod had the engine in another body, maybe wrecked it or sold it, and blew the motor in the polara, and stuck the 2bbl intake and detuned it a little bit.

[PistolGrip440-6]

2406518?! I DONT KNOW WHAT THEYRE DOING ON THAT 383, BUT JEEZ.

Your 440 will run like crap with them on it, that cam wont take advantage of them and the ports are big so throttle response will be reduced. My advice, sell them and you'll have enough to build a 500 hp 440 out of the block youve already got from the price of the heads, maybe even try going with a stroker. Does this 383 have a 2 barrel intake on it? Maybe its a race mill?

BTW, the heads should have four bolt valve covers. Congrads, it would be awesome to be surprised with some Max Wedge heads!

[valiant64]

Big time score on the max wedge heads! I agree with pistolgrip that these heads with your mild engine set up will not be a good combo. The ports are too large & the velocity will be poor making low speed driveability suck. A couple of options, sell the heads & put the $ into your build, or just build a bad ass engine that can use the air flow that these heads will produce. Or I suppose you could just keep 'em to look at!

[bulldog426]

can't remember how many bolts but i'll make dang sure tomorrow, any idea of where to list the heads 4 sale?? and a number of about how much they are worth??
it has a 2 barrel on it, but i'm wondering why.

[PistolGrip440-6]

Well Id say theyre probably worth between 2-3 K. Maybe 4K, not often you see original Max Wedge heads for sale. I wouldnt take less than 2 K for them though. Id wait for someone who might know better than myself to advise you though. I would think 3 would be a good price for them though if theyre not hacked up.

Post them on Moparts.com for sure, to someone with an original Max Wedge car who needs the heads they'll be worth alot. Maybe post a thread on there too in the general section asking if anyone knows of anyone looking for a set of originals. Make sure you post them on here too, maybe Racingjunk.com. I just highly reccomend Moparts though because im sure that way you'll find someone who is looking for a set. Ill ask around at my local cruise night which im leaving for shortly, theres a couple of guys who pop in with original Max Wedge and A990 cars. Maybe they'll know someone.

Post them on the FAST message board as well, you can find it through Yearone.com.

[rampage_82]

Man did you also go out and buy a few lottery tickets, while your at it? That is an awsome find there.

[bulldog426]

man i could sell them for enough to buy a set of good aftermarket heads and have enought left over to add a few other extras to the car, even pay for part of the paint and body work. i'm good friends with a body man, and am also friends with a guy that works for a paint store. i'm just wondering what color to go with on the charger was thinking orange. or lime green.
i'm going to go ahead and get a new set of pistons for it as well. maybe even cut .030 or .040 out. kinda thinking about getting the engine balanced as well, so i don't have to worry about it slinging apart, but then again, i'm also not going to push it hard either.
trying to figure out which mufflers i want to put on it, flowmasters are good mufflers, but my dad has a set of borlas that he pulled off his race car, i think should be better than the flows, if they let that race engine breath they should be way plenty good for my mild basically stock 440.
as far as gears, i'm thinking somewhere in the 3:7 - 4:1 range. was reading the weight specs and my car is actually fairly light compared to alot of cars. 3325, while the 69 charger was over 3600lbs.