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  #1  
Old 06-01-2008, 04:37 AM
namvet67a1f namvet67a1f is offline
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Question MPFI ....report-card ?... and Q's ..??

Is this package worth-it ? ... from the MPG and performance aspects ?? ...what are the currect costs ?? How many diff companies offer a kit ? ...which is the better kit - and the reasons why? ... do the better kits use more 02 sensors ?
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  #2  
Old 06-01-2008, 08:36 AM
HankL HankL is offline
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Motec and Haltech have the international reputations (google)
but they are expensive

The MegaSquirt EFI system is perhaps the lowest cost
and has a large group of 'open source' volunteers contributing to it
so that you can ask questions on forums
and get help as you do the conversion.

example of one guy's MegaSquirt conversion with many pictures:

http://www.302w.com/Windsor_MegaSqui...roduction.aspx

much info on MegaSquirt 'guts' here:

http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/mintro.htm

MPFI usually gives at least 10% max hp gains
but only if your 'do your homework'
and spend the time to adjust
each cylinder's air to fuel ratio and ignition timing
into 'balance'

MPFI also allows the use of a more aggressive cam
on the street
because starting, idle and part throttle operation
go more smoothly

If you set the MPFI up for use of E85 fuel
further max hp gains can be had
especially if higher compression ratio is used
to make use of E85's high octane rating
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  #3  
Old 06-01-2008, 09:51 AM
turbododge turbododge is offline
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From what I have seen in the over 15 years I have been running MPFI on the TT340 Chally is that the big benefits come in the driveability, particularly on boosted engines. Carbs don't handle denser air well, EFI doesn't care as long as there is a MAP sensor.

What I can tell you I haven't seen is any real increase in fuel economy or full throttle power. Carbs do a good job of atomizing fuel, and a well tuned carb does an excellent job. Getting to that tuning level is not an easy thing, however, as most folks cannot tune a carb that well.

There is also a pretty big downside on our old engines, and that is the use of modified carb intakes for MPFI. Since the EFI does an excellent job of delivering consistent fuel to individual cylinders, any airflow mismatch in the manifold, or heads, messes up the mixtures between cylinders (yes, you can get steups with by cylinder trimming, but it is across the entire rpm band, so it doesn't do much for manifold flow issues). With a carb, you get the fuel mixed in before the runners, so a mismatch will affect the power balance between cylinders, but not mixture (unless you have jetting/flow issues out of the carb feeding certain runners). If you had a modern, matched runner intake and heads, then you start to be able to get hp and mileage benefits.

IMHO, on a boosted car EFI is nearly a necessity. On an NA engine, don't do it for an increase in mileage or power, as you will probably be disappointed, unless your carb is badly tuned. If you look to justify it, do it for coolness, driveability, ease of tuning, reliability.
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Old 06-01-2008, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbododge View Post
...If you look to justify it, do it for coolness, driveability, ease of tuning, reliability.
That's basically why I converted my 340. I *AM* hoping to get some mileage gains, as my carb and timing weren't optimized by any means. However, part of that evil plan includes an overdrive trans, which I think you really have to have to see the biggest increase in mileage.

I've run OD transmissions before, and saw virtually zero mileage increases over direct-drive boxes. Again, I think that's due to the improper tune in carb and timing. I can' say that tuning EFI is any easier than tuning a carb, but at least you can do the tuning from your passenger seat or living room couch.

Oh, and my system is based on the thoroughly-hacked GM tuned-port injection system from a 1990-1992 Z-28/TA/Corvette. Cost is pretty fair for a very sophisticated system. Down side is that it's a very sophisticated system and you have to wade through a lot of drivability variables to achieve a basic tune.

Clair
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  #5  
Old 06-01-2008, 08:30 PM
ace26 ace26 is offline
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edelbrock just released a 2nd version of there efi system for mopars i think,then theres the F.A.S.T. system,accel dfi,mass air flo,megasquirt bunches of systems out there some are xpensive some cheaper some hard to tune and some tune themselves.
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  #6  
Old 06-02-2008, 02:41 AM
namvet67a1f namvet67a1f is offline
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GOOD info so far ...any examples on costs?
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  #7  
Old 06-02-2008, 08:09 AM
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Mine started out as a partial kit from http://www.affordable-fuel-injection.com that included everything but fuel rails, intake manifold, and distributor. I went that way with them because I planned to use an M1 EFI intake, Magnum rails, and Lean Burn distributor. Cost of that kit, which included a new wiring harness, was $1050 or so. I have since added parts or upgraded parts so that the cost is right at $2000 now. This includes the tuning software & chip-burning hardware.

Clair
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  #8  
Old 06-02-2008, 10:18 PM
namvet67a1f namvet67a1f is offline
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C .... so was it WORTH all that ?
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  #9  
Old 06-02-2008, 10:25 PM
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Mass-Flo systems also has a pretty good setup.
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  #10  
Old 06-02-2008, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by namvet67a1f View Post
C .... so was it WORTH all that ?
I dunno. It's been pretty frustrating at times, but mostly because I didn't anticipate how much work it was REALLY going to take. I got in to it as a tinkertoy, and it certainly hasn't been a disapointment from that perspective. Before I took the plunge, I was trying to decide between a turbo and EFI. I finally figured that I didn't NEED an 11-second street car as much as one that I could drive anywhere, any time. Plus, I figured that once I had the EFI sorted out, adding a smidgen of boost would be easier...

I've got WOT comfortably rich, and I can tell you that it's a pretty satisfying experience even as rough as it is. She also pulls 16-17" of vacuum at idle with a nice lope. Once I get that little bit between WOT and idle tuned, it ought to be really sweet...

Clair
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  #11  
Old 06-09-2008, 12:18 AM
namvet67a1f namvet67a1f is offline
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AT the very least ...I will stick with a TQ carb at first.

A "tinkertoy" ? ... I am glad that you find a kind-of delight with that but I need something that I could just plug-in and go.

How far away are they from being able to supply that ?
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  #12  
Old 06-09-2008, 08:01 AM
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A TQ is definitely a worthy second best IMHO, especially if it's all working and working right. I don't think anybody is very close to a TRUE plug-n-play setup, just because there are so many variables in any given vehicle the system would have to work with.

The Mass-Flo system Ed mentioned has a lot of potential, but I don't know any Mopar folks actually using one, and there's still some custom tuning that has to be done, even if it's by the "factory". The Edelbrock system would be next on my list, but lots of folks like to bash that one for a variety of reasons. The Mopar Perf Magnum system is probably the best REAL PNP, but you have to have their engine combo to work.

IMHO, the only way to get away from at least some tuning is to let someone else do it, and that means $$$$... I had more time than $$$$, so that's really what drove my decision to go with the GM setup.

Clair
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  #13  
Old 06-09-2008, 03:49 PM
namvet67a1f namvet67a1f is offline
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A plug-in system ? ... why couldn't that be done at-the-factory ...with all the specs you supply them?

The Eddy system ? ... what issues are people having with those?
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  #14  
Old 06-09-2008, 11:35 PM
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I think as long as somebody is supplying specs for somebody else to tune an engine remotely, there's room - big room - for error. Case in point, the "tune" I got from the guys who put the bones of my kit together. They said that I'd probably be happy with the tune out of the box, but if necessary, they'd do some extra tuning for me to make it right. Well, the car was virtually un-drivable, like I could BARELY make it around the block. Turns out that "tune" was pretty much an untouched 90-92 Corvette calibration, and was WAAAAY of for what my 340 wanted. Since I had all the tuning hardware and software, I decided to go my own way rather than going back and forth with them. Now, to be fair, there were lots of things going on in their lives - one of the brothers that runs the business had a heart attack - so I don't want to bash them much. They DID do a lot of support via email with me while I sorted out problems *I* created, so I just called it even. Just make sure of what you get is all I can say.

As for the EB kit, I think the biggest problems I hear is that it isn't tuneable enough, OR, it can't handle much power. I think the power issue is BS, but the tuning could be an issue. It's another system - very similar to the GM stuff I have, even uses similar chips - that requires you to send specs to them. They burn a chip, and you see how it works. I see the EB tech dept being a bit tighter on QA/QC, but there will still be problems. Maybe minor, but that's going to depend on what your expectations are.

The only FOOLPROOF way to get the engine tuned is to drop the car off with a true expert and let them have at it with the install AND the tune. When you get it home, it'll be done, and done right, and you didn't have to lift a finger - other than to open your wallet.

Clair
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  #15  
Old 06-10-2008, 03:35 AM
namvet67a1f namvet67a1f is offline
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Wow ...I did not realize that there was all this tinkertoy-stuff after the sale.

You seem to be one of the few that kind of like the TQ. With your FI system all ironed-out ...what do you hope that the power and mpg improvements would be .... over a good TQ ?
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  #16  
Old 06-10-2008, 08:30 AM
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I *LOVE* the TQ, and it (or any carb for that matter) won't give up much mileage or power to EFI - IF it's really tuned properly. That's the tough part of the TQ, there aren't many tuning parts out there. The magic is being able to tune all the transitions between idle, cruise, power, and do it seamlessly. That's going to be tough with any carb, and getting the spark timing to play along makes it even tougher. EFI makes all that happen with ease.

Since my TQ combo wasn't perfect, I do expect to see some gains in HP, TQ, and MPG. How much, I'm not sure yet, but maybe 15-20hp, 30-40lb-ft, and hopefully, 4-6mpg. I'd really like to break 20mpg, and the OD trans will probably do as much to achieve that as the EFI. Fingers crossed...

Clair
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  #17  
Old 06-11-2008, 12:09 AM
namvet67a1f namvet67a1f is offline
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But you don't need a pile-of-parts to tune a TQ. Been doing it for years with the standard stuff... but by adding into the mix a set of brass floats. The secondaries(during WOT) need some R&D to make that more efficent ... but that I am going to work on.

I have never had many issues with the transitions ... but the timing can be challenging. And yes EFI would bring all that together .... but WHEN are they going to have a bolt-in, plug-in and-go system ? ...LOL ..

To add here .... how about into all this mix .... a knock sensor that would reduce timing ...and a MDS ? .... or would this make that system even way more complex?
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Old 06-17-2008, 10:22 PM
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Little delay in the reply...

Yeah, I'll admit that I didn't invest too heavily in tuning my TQ, and I didn't have my wideband for long before I took the TQ off to start the EFI project. The stock rods/jets seemed OK for my setup, but I never fine tuned the system to try to maximize mileage. I think timing would have made the most difference in that regard. That, and keeping my foot out of those big secondaries... not much efficiency going on if those things are open...

GM used knock sensors BIG TIME in their hotrod tunes, like in the Corvette calibrations for example. Those engines basically had the snot advanced out of them, and they relied on the knock sensor to pull timing enough to keep from holing pistons. That tune in my Valiant was literally nearly undrivable. I'm disabling the knock sensor function for now, but will enable it later after the bulk of the tuning is done.

I think MDS is only an option on an engine that came with it. Seems that the Hemi MDS is wickedly sophisticated, so not much hope of capitalizing on that system without factory electronics.

I think the PnP systems are coming, but not close yet. That system Ed mentioned is the closest so far, but I don't know anyone actually using one.

Clair
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Old 06-20-2008, 11:36 PM
namvet67a1f namvet67a1f is offline
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Oppps ..... I am tardy again ... keeping this going ...

The TQ ? ... in some applications(like my motorhome) ... you can tweek-it -- on-the-fly ! And there really is not the need to "invest" much money to tune-it ... a couple of different rods are all you need. Now the secondaries are another thing ! ... Those spray-bars need some serious R&D (IMO) ...to be more efficent and effective.

Are there any add-on knock-sensors for a Mopar RB with a regular electronic ignition ? ... And that MDS ? ... does that actually shut-down all cam, valve and fuel to that particular cylinder?

There is a guy on another board that is trying this Eddie system himself. He has gotten about the same "help" from them as you did. You two guys are alot more patient than I am .... I would have returned that system to them a long LONG time ago.
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:05 PM
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The MDS actually (apparently) shuts off the fuel from half the engine (one side, not just random cyls), AND shuts off the oil to the intake valve lifters so they stay seated, AND opens the the exhaust valves on thos same cylinders to keep pumping losses down. It really sounds like a pretty killer system, but I wouldn't want to try to make it work on my own. OEM electronics, or do without, it seems.

Not sure what there is for add-on knock sensors for Mopars, they really kind of have to be tuned to the particular engine block & cylinder bore size. A 305 sensor isn't the same as a 350. For a Mopar swap with GM parts like I'm doing, they suggest using a sensor from an engine with similar bore sizes. So, when I get around to enabling that function, I'll use a 350 sensor and mount it in the block drain hole by the pan rail. Not sure how that can be handled outside of running an EFI box of some sort. Not that it HAS to run the fuel too, but a computer controlled distributor and basically all the other sensors has to be in place. Folks have done it just for better spark control, but why not go all the way if you're going that far?

Clair
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Old 06-26-2008, 11:05 AM
Rug_Trucker Rug_Trucker is offline
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Does pressurizing the intake over come air distribution issues?


I like the idea of the TBI system that somebody has developed. Bolts on a standard 4bbl intake. I saw one at a car show a couple of months ago. The guy's brochures hadn't arrived or I would remember who built them.

TBI sounds good enough for me. Will a TBI work good witha turbo?

Someday I want a turbo slant.
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Old 06-26-2008, 01:18 PM
turbododge turbododge is offline
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Pressurizing the intake won't really do much for distribution as the volume of air flowing is the same, just denser. Port injection (even with cylinder trimming in most cases) will usually give you worse mixture issues, cylinder to cylinder, than TBI will. The worse the airflow mismatch, the worse the mixture variation will be with port injection, as the fuel is always the same per cylinder, but the air isn't. With TBI, the mixture is set before the air hits the runners, so all you get is less or more charge per cylinder, with mismatched distribution.

I have never seen a TBI turbo setup. I assume you could do it, but would have to have the injectors boost referenced for pressure increase to get them to flow well under boost. I don't know if the can take the extra pressure, as they usually run low pressure compared to port injectors.
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  #23  
Old 06-28-2008, 10:33 PM
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There are a lot of GM guys running much higher pressure trying to get more fuel flow for higher output engines. I'm not super familiar with TBI's in general, but like turbododge said, referencing the regulator to boost would be tough.

TBI isn't a bad way to go, especially if you've got a well-sorted carb intake system. I thought about it, but figured if I'm going 90% of the way to MPI, I may as well go all the way. I've got turbo EFI /6 dreams as well, but I'm thinking about straight individual runners connected by a plenum sized for the application. If only the intake and exhaust ports were on opposite sides of the head. And the cam(s) were in the head. And...

Clair
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