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  #1  
Old 10-07-2008, 12:40 PM
Monaco Man 78 Monaco Man 78 is offline
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Default 360 street rebuild help

hi new to this forum, I have a 1979 360 engine out of a cordoba i plan on putting this in my 1978 dodge monaco. I want to use a weiand 8007 intake with a holley street avenger 570, havent decide on keeping to keep heads stock, or what. I've been viewing as a guest for awhile, and people say the weiand is a bad choice, but would a street avenger help with distribution problems ive been hearing about. im going from stock 2 barrel to 4. buying new carb, could someone help me out thanks.
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  #2  
Old 10-07-2008, 03:02 PM
Monaco Man 78 Monaco Man 78 is offline
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Originally Posted by Monaco Man 78 View Post
hi new to this forum, I have a 1979 360 engine out of a cordoba i plan on putting this in my 1978 dodge monaco. I want to use a weiand 8007 intake with a holley street avenger 570, havent decide on keeping to keep heads stock, or what. I've been viewing as a guest for awhile, and people say the weiand is a bad choice, but would a street avenger help with distribution problems ive been hearing about. im going from stock 2 barrel to 4. buying new carb, could someone help me out thanks.
any suggestions on a street 360 la engine rebuild, i'm going to use it for a daily driver, no street/stirp setup, just street.
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  #3  
Old 10-07-2008, 05:30 PM
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Default Heads

I'd sure recomend new heads. Those la's have obstructed exhaust ports and funky chamber shapes. The Mopar R/T heads are really good flowing, 60cc chambered unobstructed port heads. All the four barrel in the world won't make it better than the heads it feeds.
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  #4  
Old 10-07-2008, 06:53 PM
Monaco Man 78 Monaco Man 78 is offline
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thanks for the help on heads but unfortunately im on a budget, new heads are more than likely out of the question, anything i can do to help them flow better.
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  #5  
Old 10-07-2008, 09:20 PM
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I have not ever used that intake myself. Some swear by it, others say no way. Your choice, but. to answer your question.....


For a daily driver, it would help to know what the rear gear is and what size tire you have. Also if a stall converter is in the future to be purchased or not.

I'll start with what you more than likely have in the car, a 8-1/4 rear with 2.76 gears to a (At most) 3.21 ratio.

Carb size should be a 600 at a min. to a 700 at max. size, maker of your choice, but it should be a vacuum secondary carb. No double pumps.

Intake ;your choice

Heads; The OE head is just fine for daily driving of course. If you want to upgreade later, just back cut the valves and bowl port. No more, no less. You'll be good to go.
IF you have a few bucks for them now, a milling to increase compresion would help since the '76 engines are a bit low on compresion. Also, look for the thin OE MoPar head gasket rather than a thicker Fel-Pro or other gasket.

Cam; You didn't say if your going to use headers or not. But I'll assume you will.
Try this Crane cam for a daily driver with very good driving manors and HP potentail. (SP?) http://cranecams.com/?show=browsePar...tType=camshaft

The extra stroke of the 360 will have the starting RPM range drop a few hundred RPM's down to approx; 1500. Very close to just off idle.

To finish up, use a double roller timing chain and the MoPar timing chain tensioner, exhaust size @ 2-1/2 inchs will do excellent.

This simple build will put you over the 300 HP mark easy. Provide plenty of torque and easy driving manors and mileage for everyday driving, no problem.
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  #6  
Old 10-07-2008, 09:36 PM
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I've used the 8007 on many projects over the years and they work great. There's no distribution problems with that intake over any other intake used on the street. All street intakes are not perfect to begin with cause you use them over a wide rpm range and your driving varies too much during a single trip. The 570 is wayyy to small for a 360. Stock carb is an 800 cfm Thermoquad. That would give you the best performance and millage and it's a direct bolt on. The avenger would need an adapter plate. The stock heads are fine, but you could mill them .035 for a little compression boost. Headers with 2 1/2 pipes and an x pipe will help move the heavy car along too.
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Old 10-07-2008, 09:39 PM
Monaco Man 78 Monaco Man 78 is offline
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thanks rumblefish i swapped the 8 1/4 rearend for a 9 1/4, got it from a 79 cordoba, gear ratio 3.2 on the tag, not sure if its 3.23 or 3.21. tire size is and going to stay at 215/75/15, no stall converter for future. I'm going to run dual exhaust, with spitfire tri-y shortie headers. would a 570 holley street avenger work well instead of 600 cfm holley, i calculated the cfm, i would need and it came to 530 cfm.
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  #8  
Old 10-07-2008, 09:46 PM
Monaco Man 78 Monaco Man 78 is offline
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dwc43, i really want to use a street avenger what cfm rating would you go with for this street 360, if this helps i swapped my lockup 904 with a 727 nonlockup out of a 1976 dodge sportsman royal B300 van, freshly rebuilt and already put in.
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  #9  
Old 10-07-2008, 09:48 PM
Monaco Man 78 Monaco Man 78 is offline
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i'm going to run dynomax super turbos on my exhaust, just wanted to throw that in there.
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  #10  
Old 10-07-2008, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Monaco Man 78 View Post
dwc43, i really want to use a street avenger what cfm rating would you go with for this street 360, if this helps i swapped my lockup 904 with a 727 nonlockup out of a 1976 dodge sportsman royal B300 van, freshly rebuilt and already put in.
I would not run less than a 750 on a 360. If your using that formula for cab sizing it does not work. It can't take into effect any change made to an engine. If you change the cam you can use more carb, if you port you'll need more carb, etc. etc. That's why it does not work. The same formula says John Reedys Demon running a 340 at 7.50s needs a smaller cab than his 750. It's a joke. You can run the avenger if you want to, but the Thermoquad is a better carb for most all situations. You should use a 4 hole adapter too if you want to use that avenger. It'll help with low end torque. The 9 1/4 would be a 3.21. Have the same thing in my truck.I would have used flow masters, but your not building a street racer so max power must not be your concern.
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  #11  
Old 10-08-2008, 09:35 PM
Monaco Man 78 Monaco Man 78 is offline
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any mopar purple cams that are good for this rebuild, and any suggestions on mufflers, and they make street avengers that are 670 and 770 but, remember street setup, i have been inform from my father, never go over 600 cfm on a strictly street setup
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  #12  
Old 10-09-2008, 03:32 AM
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Well, inform your father that the factory six pack as 1350 cfm. Big block thermoquads are 850 and the small block thermoquads are 800. The Hemi used two carbs on all models. So the 600 on the street is b.s. IT all depends on what the engine needs not whether it's on the street or not. Guess I'd use the 770 if you want to stick with that carb, but it's still not a good choice.

I would not use a purple shaft. A dual pattern cam would be a better choice so you can get the most exhaust flow form the stock heads. Something like a 268*int 272*ex. The heads could use more exhaust flow and the dual pattern cam helps the head work better.

On mufflers I prefer the Flow Masters with 2 1/2" exhaust pipes and an X pipe. The mufflers flow the best and the X pipe increase low end torque.
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  #13  
Old 10-09-2008, 11:27 AM
Monaco Man 78 Monaco Man 78 is offline
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dwc43, could you show me a couple of sites to go to about factory spec for a 360, not that im saying your lying, i've been looking for quite some while and couldn't find anything at all, and why dont you like the street avengers.
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  #14  
Old 10-09-2008, 05:06 PM
Monaco Man 78 Monaco Man 78 is offline
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dwc43, ive been reading some posts, you said advance auto parts sell replacement thermaquads, been looking and found one part number 641202 this one is for 1971 demon 340. typed in my model shows no pic part number 641056 what is the difference between them, found other ones to, some say they interchange, they dont tell what cfm it is, maybe you could shed some light on this, what would be the best for my setup. thanks
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  #15  
Old 10-09-2008, 11:34 PM
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monaco man, check out the TQ details here in this forum http://www.moparchat.com/forums/show...ewpost&t=91806 As for parts store replacements, dw may have good luck with them, but I think you should be prepared to re-tune as they will mostly be set up lean for emissions. As for bolt-ons there is no problem as long as you have the stock manifold, or a Weiand or Edelbrock spread-bore, All the 360 TQ's were 800 cfm. Don't let that confuse you, remember the TQ has an air-door over the mechanical secondaries that will not open fully until the rpm's are high enough to use all the air available. Thats the neat thing about a TQ - it'll behave like a smaller carb no matter what you do with the throttle until the motor can use more air. I cobbled one together for my mild 360 Mirada and I'm happy with it. You need to be ready to do a little hot-rodding on your bench though. Otherwise, you could go with Edelbrock - good street carbs out of the box, or the Holley you mentioned.
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  #16  
Old 10-10-2008, 12:12 AM
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dwc43
Quote:
Stock carb is an 800 cfm Thermoquad.
dodger1
Quote:
All the 360 TQ's were 800 cfm.
850's were stock as well.


Monaco
Quote:
I'm going to run dual exhaust, with spitfire tri-y shortie headers. would a 570 holley street avenger work well instead of 600 cfm holley, i calculated the cfm, i would need and it came to 530 cfm.
Dw is right, the cfm calc's are to be taken with a grain of salt. I also agree that a T-Q is a good carb though parts are not on a shelf for them like a Holley.

If your going to use the Holley on the 360 and the engine is stock other than the headers, a 600 (min.) or 650 is the cfm amount you'll want to use. A 750 is fine as well, but I myself prefur a slightly smaller carb for a higher velocity and throttle response. You'll not need more cfm than that and would be hard pressed to use more cfm even with a small cam.
(Been there, done that, do what ya want.............)

For a stock converter, small tire 3.21 rear geared car, the cam I suggested above will do well. Another 10* advertised duration is the max size cam I would use with the combo you have now. (Or 226 intake duration @ .050) That is about the max limit of the converter and cam combo to use before it becomes unbalanced. Keep in mind the car is also heavy, so a smaller cam than 226 @ .050 would be desireable.

I'd skip the purple cams for this street application myself.
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  #17  
Old 10-10-2008, 12:48 AM
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Rumble, OK, I didn't do my homework re: the 800 TQ. Checked Ed's (Vaanth's) sticky and yes, 75-77 360s could be had with 850 TQ's, mostly CAlifornia stuff although the 9002 is shown as a Federal HiPo carb for 75-76 360 cars. That might be a desirable model to find for rebuilding.
Re cams, I have a Mopar 220-228, 430-450 lift and it works pretty well in my 360. Although the motor is a bit lazy with 2.94 gears I can still go full throttle off idle and there's no stumbling or hesitation. Which is why I like my TQ. BTW, I thought all Mopar Perf. cams were branded "Purple Shafts" Mine has a purple paint mark on it?
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  #18  
Old 10-10-2008, 02:17 AM
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Originally Posted by dodger1 View Post
Rumble, OK, I didn't do my homework re: the 800 TQ. Checked Ed's (Vaanth's) sticky and yes, 75-77 360s could be had with 850 TQ's, mostly CAlifornia stuff although the 9002 is shown as a Federal HiPo carb for 75-76 360 cars. That might be a desirable model to find for rebuilding.
Re cams, I have a Mopar 220-228, 430-450 lift and it works pretty well in my 360. Although the motor is a bit lazy with 2.94 gears I can still go full throttle off idle and there's no stumbling or hesitation. Which is why I like my TQ. BTW, I thought all Mopar Perf. cams were branded "Purple Shafts" Mine has a purple paint mark on it?
The thing with purple shafts are that they are old and have not been updated. Still work, but not that great with newer heads like edels. And very few dual pattern designs that work so much better with small block heads to help with the exhaust flow.
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  #19  
Old 10-10-2008, 02:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Monaco Man 78 View Post
dwc43, could you show me a couple of sites to go to about factory spec for a 360, i've been looking for quite some while and couldn't find anything at all, and why dont you like the street avengers.
Best thing to do if you want accurate info on the 360 is go to your dealer and buy the Mopar Performance Engine book and Chassis Manual as well. Mancini should have them also if you want to order them off of there web site. What exact specs would you like? I can look them up for you pretty easy. Keep it all on file in my race shop. The avenger is nothing more than just another poor designed holley in some odd ball cfm sizes compared too all other carbs.
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  #20  
Old 10-10-2008, 02:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Monaco Man 78 View Post
dwc43, ive been reading some posts, you said advance auto parts sell replacement thermaquads, been looking and found one part number 641202 this one is for 1971 demon 340. typed in my model shows no pic part number 641056 what is the difference between them, found other ones to, some say they interchange, they dont tell what cfm it is, maybe you could shed some light on this, what would be the best for my setup. thanks
For your almost stock set up the stock 800cfm carb will do fine. You want the older carbs. They tend to be set up a little more towards the rich side than the later models. The latter models will have some options on there that you really don't need. They also tend to run leaner than the older ones because of the changing emissions. Over all inside they are still pretty much the same and can be converted back to the older style quite easily. All small blcoks will be 800 and the big blocks are 850. Some truck 360's got an 850.

One thing about it, take a stock engine and put a 625 AFB on it and then swap to an 800 Thermoquad and you'll see one heck of a diff in response and hp gain. You'll find the same diff when you swap out holley's. The holley is just not as throttle responsive. Best way to describe it is an on and off carb. IT's either wide open or closed. lol.
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Old 10-10-2008, 03:58 AM
DartGT66 DartGT66 is offline
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Those carbs have vacuum secondaries, just like the six pack or hemi set ups. They'll only get as much air as the engine needs even if they can support more. Now remove the air flap above the thermoquads secondaries, and tell me how well it works? the holley is not throttle responsive, true, taht's the reason why they don't do well at all in racing. And that's why they are so rare in racing.
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Old 10-10-2008, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dodger1 View Post
Rumble, OK, I didn't do my homework re: the 800 TQ. Checked Ed's (Vaanth's) sticky and yes, 75-77 360s could be had with 850 TQ's, mostly CAlifornia stuff although the 9002 is shown as a Federal HiPo carb for 75-76 360 cars. That might be a desirable model to find for rebuilding.
Re cams, I have a Mopar 220-228, 430-450 lift and it works pretty well in my 360. Although the motor is a bit lazy with 2.94 gears I can still go full throttle off idle and there's no stumbling or hesitation. Which is why I like my TQ. BTW, I thought all Mopar Perf. cams were branded "Purple Shafts" Mine has a purple paint mark on it?
The older the T-Q, the better, save the first year there stock.

You are correct, the MoPar Performance cams are called "Purple shafts"

DW mentions there age. It is a minor factor. You have to look at the cam itself. The purple shafts have an aggresive opening ramp, but not as aggresive as the recently released XE line from Comp Cams or Lunati's Voo-Doo line. Those last two are new comers by compare to fast opening agressive ramp rates offered to the public on a "Off the shelf" basis.

You could allways order a custom shaft from them this or more agressive, but most won't due to fear.

The other thing is there single pattern. While not a bad thing, a dual pattern offers a slight advantage and is best used with stock heads with the poor exhaust flowing port. Even after porting, the head can use a dual pattern cam. The head must be extensively ported to be able not to see any bennifit to a daul pattern cam and even at this major reworked level, the difference can be small to nil. Seldom will a single pattern cam be better, but it is possible that it can be.

To say the MP cam line doesn't work with modern heads like the Edelbrock is an odd statement IMO because it is down to not only the heads flow but the actual build behind it all.

It doesn't matter when the head was made or what it is made out of. It matters in how it flows and how you build the engine with that head. Some classes of racing require stock OE heads, un ported with stock valves. Now you have your peramiters to work with, cam arcordingly. Same with your build.
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  #23  
Old 10-10-2008, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DartGT66 View Post
Those carbs have vacuum secondaries, just like the six pack or hemi set ups. They'll only get as much air as the engine needs even if they can support more. Now remove the air flap above the thermoquads secondaries, and tell me how well it works? the holley is not throttle responsive, true, taht's the reason why they don't do well at all in racing. And that's why they are so rare in racing.
By removing the flap from the T-Q's secondary side, you effectivly disable the carb from operating properly, period. I can say the same for a Holley or any carb. Let me take a vital operational part out and see how well it performs.

IE;, let me take the vacuum diaphram off a regular holley and see how well it works.

No don't bitch, I just effectively made the same disableing move to you as you did to the T-Q.

The bottom line is use any carb you comfy with.
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Old 10-10-2008, 12:22 PM
Monaco Man 78 Monaco Man 78 is offline
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there is a holley spreadbore carb#0-9895 on the holley site its 650cfm, electric choke, and vacuum secondary, its emmision legal though would this stand with the thermaquad. i know stock is 800 cfm but just wanted to know check summitracing or partsamerica site to see pic.
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Old 10-10-2008, 12:39 PM
Monaco Man 78 Monaco Man 78 is offline
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would this give good throttle response as the thermaquad, diameter looks the same of the primary's and secondary's like the thermaquad.
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Old 10-10-2008, 02:48 PM
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Could possibly be a decent street carb, although I don't know anyone running one. As for being equal to the TQ, I think that would depend pretty much on the tuner. Again, don't get too hung up on brand names and CFM's - a mild cam, stock valve size 360 probably will not ever use 800 CFM as you won't turn it fast enough and the (stock) heads wouldn't move enough air. For more info on the TQ go to demonsizzler's site -( http://thermoquads.com/) you may be surprised at the relatively low cost of a properly tuned TQ, especially if you have a $10 junkyard core to supply.
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Old 10-10-2008, 06:20 PM
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I had that spreadbore Holley and didn't find it to thrilling myself.
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  #28  
Old 10-10-2008, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Monaco Man 78 View Post
there is a holley spreadbore carb#0-9895 on the holley site its 650cfm, electric choke, and vacuum secondary, its emmision legal though would this stand with the thermaquad. i know stock is 800 cfm but just wanted to know check summitracing or partsamerica site to see pic.
I've got two of those things sitting on the shelf. Ones a vac. 600 and the other is the mech. 650. THey are both worthless. Too small for starters. Secondly they don't have the booster set up like a Thermoquad has, therefore there throttle response suffers quite a bit. I would pass on them. And one other thing, the 8007 you mentioned wanting to use is set up to use a spread bore carb and will work much better with the TQ. That's actually what it was designed to be used with.
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  #29  
Old 10-14-2008, 03:32 AM
Monaco Man 78 Monaco Man 78 is offline
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has anyone had experience with holley carb 0-80783C, 650 cfm 4 barrel vacuum secondaries, electric choke, duel fuel inlet, model 4150
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  #30  
Old 10-14-2008, 10:12 PM
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The Holley is a good carb, just learn how to tune it.
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