'89 Ram tbi upgrade suggestions

[negaRam]

Hey guys, as I mentioned in my introduction thread over in the off-topic section, I just bought a really nice '89 D150 last weekend. It's an 'LE' in great shape with 91k original miles and loaded. Doing a little research, I found that my 318 is 60hp behind my dad's '93 in stock condition. It rides great, but it is pretty wimpy at 170hp.

Wanting to pick up the pep in this thing a little bit into the ~250hp range with the tbi and keep it very driveable, I did a forum search and found a thread from 2005 discussing hp upgrades for another member's '89. There was a lot of discussion there about changing the cam, and some mention of larger throttle body, bigger injectors, performance intake, and better exhaust. I didn't see anything about heads, and I thought that would be one of the biggest helpers. So, I decided to post a new thread rather than comment on that one and see what you guys could tell me about the possibilities. My questions are these:

1) Will a bigger tb from a 360 work with the existing computer? I've heard that my existing one is in the 525cfm range.

2) Only intake I see for stock efi at summit is the edelbrock super victor, which says its operating range is 3500-8500 rpm. Isn't that a little high to utilize during normal driving? Plus, Edelbrock website says it's only for 340 & 360. Confusing. I don't see anything from Mopar Performance. Any other options?

3) I haven't found anything regarding bolt-up performance heads. Does nobody make an upgrade head sorta like the Roush 200 for a Ford? Do the existing heads flow well and can they be re-worked to make a real difference?

4) What kind of boost could I get from a cam like Comp 254HR (254int/262exh duration - .45int/.45exh lift). How would the computer respond? Other options?

5) I used to think dual exhaust was always the way to go, but I've heard recently that a well-built single 3" system can perform better on near stock engines.

Any input you guys could give would be greatly appreciated. If any of you know of someone knowledgeable in the Gainesville, GA, area who could help me with any of this, that would be great too. Thanks.

[dwc43]

1. Yes. Should see a little help from it, but not much without other mods.
2. Bad intake unless you are running a well built drag car. Pre Magnum so there's no efi intakes for it. Best bet for performance is to ditch the efi and go with a Weaind 8007 and a Thermoquad and an electric fuel pump with no more than 7psi and no less than 5. And an MSD box for ignition and get rid of the pc fopr good.
3. Edel makes an aluminum head for and there's the old W2's, but that too much for an almost stock street truck. If you put new pistons to bump up the CR you could run the Edels. Run some stock 360 heads with 2.02 intake valves milled .035 and a dual pattern cam and you'll have a pretty descent set up along with the last parts mentioned in #2 and you'll have a good runner.
4.It's pretty small and the pc wont know you changed it. Better to get rid of the pc and use whats in #2 and then you can use a bigger dual pattern cam for more performance.
5.Dual exhaust is the only way to go. On a 318 2 1/4 pipes with an X pipe and sopme flowmasters will get you a good system and if you add some Hooker or Hedman 1 5/8 headers you wont be able to get it any better than that. If you upgrade to a 360 you'll need to use the same set up, but with 2 1/2" pipes. Unless your making way over 500 you'll never need 3" pipes.

Read this thread where I am helping a friend out with his truck. Some good info to mull over.
http://www.moparchat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113931

[TK]

Change the cam, crane makes them TBI friendly., port the heads, and it will outrun that weak turd 318 magnum, if it doesn't already! The 302 heads on it are perfect for your 318, another set of heads that have big ports and you have a whole different animal on a 318, needing big cam, and even converter to make you happy with a truck.
The 318 magnums had to lie about HP, because I never seen one that had any power, even in 2x Dakota's.

[negaRam]

Originally Posted by dwc43

1. Yes. Should see a little help from it, but not much without other mods.
...

4.It's pretty small and the pc wont know you changed it. Better to get rid of the pc and use whats in #2 and then you can use a bigger dual pattern cam for more performance.

(1) Can I buy the 360 tb commercially anywhere, or do I need to find one in a junkyard? I keep getting lists of spacers when I search the web.

(4) A member claimed a 50-75 hp boost with a "comp grind 110 degree 212/int - 218/exh duration 457/int -487/exhaust power band from 1200 to 5500." on a thread entitled "318 Truck Performance Help" (Sorry, I can't post links yet.). You believe him?

[TK]

Was it 50 or 75HP? I doubt it will make that much difference alone. Porting the 302 heads, with bigger valves, and a slightly bigger throttle body would be the best way to go.
I built a TBI 318, with a stock cam, mild headwork, and raised compression, (Mill, Mill, and Mill with adj rockers) and it was as much of a torque monster as you could have expected..

[dwc43]

Originally Posted by negaRam

(1) Can I buy the 360 tb commercially anywhere, or do I need to find one in a junkyard? I keep getting lists of spacers when I search the web.

(4) A member claimed a 50-75 hp boost with a "comp grind 110 degree 212/int - 218/exh duration 457/int -487/exhaust power band from 1200 to 5500." on a thread entitled "318 Truck Performance Help" (Sorry, I can't post links yet.). You believe him?

You can get them, but they cost a boat load. Most of the aftermarket ones are billet. Mopar Performance used to sell them through the dealer, but it's just a stock 360 piece. I'd just go get one from a salvage yard. That will get you the best price. Just check the shaft for wear. If it's not loose, then snag it.

You might get 50 with some other mods like the larger tbi and some exhaust work like dumping the cat and headers and such. Porting wont help much cause the CR is so low and your using small cams. Better off with older 360 X heads milled .035 to up the cr or just milling your head's another .035 to up the cr and you'll see a gain from that more than anything at this level. If you go more than .035 you have to mill the intake to match what you took off the heads. You can get away without doing it if you stay under .035.

[negaRam]

According to dodgeram.org, the CR is 9:1. Is that really low?

I guess I need to start with the easy stuff like the tb and exhaust to see how much better it breathes at that point and then go from there. I understand what some are thinking about going to carb, but if I go so far as removing the pc, I might as well just get a 380/360 crate and drop it in, right?

Is any brand of headers better than others at clearing steering shaft, starter, spark plugs, etc.?

[dwc43]

I don't think you'll have too much trouble with headers on your truck. There's plenty of room on both sides. I usually run Hookers or Hedmans. Just stay away from the cheap ones with thin flanges and shorty block hugger types. The shorty's are not much better than manifolds for what they cost.

I'd check the cr. I bet you'll find it's lower than 9 to 1. I'd do the exhaust at least and see if you get the gain you want and go from there. A crate would be good if you can get a good one. There's mixed reviews on those things and you can build more for less money if you do it yourself. And a 360 always beats a 318 any day when you're looking for more power and torque. Just depends on how far you want to go.

[TK]

Porting wont help much cause the CR is so low and your using small cams. Better off with older 360 X heads milled .035 to up the cr or just milling your head's another .035 to up the cr and you'll see a gain from that more than anything at this level.

Don't listen, he is dead wrong, keep the small port heads, port them, and get a mild cam. DW has no idea what he is talking about, he is in X head land, using 360 heads would be going completely backwards, bigger cc OPEN CHAMBER heads would kill your mild 318.
I have 302 heads on a 390 stroker, and it is one running truck motor, don't let anyone tell you they wont breath enough for a mild 318.

C'mon DW, your not going to start this again, are you?

[MOPEkid]

I am putting 302 heads on my '70 318 as an upgrade. Especially with some bigger intake valves and some porting to go along with it, then some combustion chamber edge-radiusing and the removal of the "ridge' in the middle of the chamber, those heads would do wonders on a 318.

A cam is a good idea as the stock 2-bbl. and roller profiles were pretty crappy, but you'd have to make sure you either get another roller cam or convert to flat tappets (which would IMO be a step backwards). Check out Hughes Engines, they have some good hyd. roller cam profiles and would help you out in picking the right one.

If you don't have to worry about emissions for that truck then it might be beneficial to convert to a good ol' 4-bbl. carburetor on a good dual-plane intake, such as the Edelbrock Performer. I don't think you'll have much luck finding bigger aftermarket performance valve bodies for decent prices. Also, you could get rid of the emissions crap including the cat. while going to dual exhaust and/or headers.

[dwc43]

He should already have 302 heads on his engine, which is not much of an upgrade, but with bigger valves it's better than the older heads until you go to the x and j heads which is the best upgrade until you start making some serious hp.

[TK]

DOn't listen to him, it will run worse than it does now, X and J heads are for "bigger" HP.

[passing you]

Originally Posted by TK

Don't listen, he is dead wrong, keep the small port heads, port them, and get a mild cam. DW has no idea what he is talking about, he is in X head land, using 360 heads would be going completely backwards, bigger cc OPEN CHAMBER heads would kill your mild 318.
I have 302 heads on a 390 stroker, and it is one running truck motor, don't let anyone tell you they wont breath enough for a mild 318.

C'mon DW, your not going to start this again, are you?

Relax, I think he was just making a comparison in the 'all things matched'

Now when it comes to your stroker example you are dead wrong and should have used a head with more port volume like the heads dcw mentioned.
I know....I'm kinda in the same boat right?

Both of you guys can usually be a little too insistent on how you think things should be done.

[passing you]

Originally Posted by TK

DOn't listen to him, it will run worse than it does now, X and J heads are for "bigger" HP.

302's ported max out at around 240cfm=490 something potential HP but would require a hell of a lot cam, compression and carb/cfm to use it.

X,J Heads ported max out around 260-270, with 'extensive modification' up to 290 or so, but it's real hard to get there.

Now if this guy was changing pistons for 10.8-11.1 comp for 65cc chamber and milling to 65cc on the X,j's w/1.88-1.60 valves this would make the most power but as some else said it's the total package mainly 'gears & convertor' but doesn't this have to pass smog?

If your not looking to do major work to this thing just find some smog legal headers and a good set of 2-2 1/4 pipes.

[dwc43]

Originally Posted by passing you

Now when it comes to your stroker example you are dead wrong and should have used a head with more port volume like the heads dcw mentioned.
I know....I'm kinda in the same boat right?

I started to mention that, but it's not worth the trouble. lol

[mopar29mod]

I have 302 heads on my 318, with good port work and about 9.5 comp they work really good. I went a littile over the top and put on the 950 holley TBI with the Torker 2 manifold. I'll never go back to a carb! I think as far as big valves in a 302 head I'm not sure there is much to be gained as the valve tends to be to close to the casting around it.

[TK]

Now when it comes to your stroker example you are dead wrong and should have used a head with more port volume like the heads dcw mentioned.

No, your dead wrong, went both ways, for the application the 302's are better. Yes, you are DEAD WRONG.

I started to mention that, but it's not worth the trouble.

Probably because you don't want to argue with someone who has actually built a engine before.

[TK]

Back to the beginning. Your pre-magnum isn't really 60HP behind the magnum, no way, if you take a truck, like for like, not only will the pre-mag pull from the line better, but it isn't that much slower. I really think they measure the magnums at the crank with no accessories attached on a dyno with a tunes engine. I remember at that time, they were bragging about the 318 having more power than the 454. We all know thats BS. IN all reality, your pre-magnum isn't far behind, if at all. If the mag beats you in a race, it may just be gearing or transmission.

'LE' in great shape with 91k original miles and loaded. Doing a little research, I found that my 318 is 60hp behind my dad's '93 in stock condition. It rides great, but it is pretty wimpy at 170hp.

Wanting to pick up the pep in this thing a little bit into the ~250hp range with the tbi and keep it very driveable, I did a forum search and found a thread from 2005 discussing hp upgrades for another member's '89. There was a lot of discussion there about changing the cam, and some mention of larger throttle body, bigger injectors, performance intake, and better exhaust. I didn't see anything about heads, and I thought that would be one of the biggest helpers. So, I decided to post a new thread rather than comment on that one and see what you guys could tell me about the possibilities. My questions are these:

1) Will a bigger tb from a 360 work with the existing computer? I've heard that my existing one is in the 525cfm range.

I am on the pot on this one, IS the 360 TBI bigger? You would think it would be, but is it? I really don't know, if it is, I bet it would make a difference, just make sure the TBI holes line up with the manifold. (thinking die grinder here)

2) Only intake I see for stock efi at summit is the edelbrock super victor, which says its operating range is 3500-8500 rpm. Isn't that a little high to utilize during normal driving? Plus, Edelbrock website says it's only for 340 & 360. Confusing. I don't see anything from Mopar Performance. Any other options?

For your application, I would think stock would be best.

3) I haven't found anything regarding bolt-up performance heads. Does nobody make an upgrade head sorta like the Roush 200 for a Ford? Do the existing heads flow well and can they be re-worked to make a real difference?

Yes, they do, but for your truck, it wont be needed, just to get a little more "pep". Maybe the best thing to do would to put magnum heads on it, then you have the only thing that magnums got going for it.

4) What kind of boost could I get from a cam like Comp 254HR (254int/262exh duration - .45int/.45exh lift). How would the computer respond? Other options?

With porting, and tuning, and degreeing it in? A little compression bump, a pretty good deal of power.

3" single probably would work as good as dual for you.

Hooker makes super-comps for your truck, Xnay the air pump if you can.

[passing you]

Originally Posted by TK

No, your dead wrong, went both ways, for the application the 302's are better. Yes, you are DEAD WRONG.



Probably because you don't want to argue with someone who has actually built a engine before.

Are you yelling at your computer hence the capitalized 'dead wrong'?

Your an angry fella, good luck with that.

[dwc43]

Originally Posted by TK

No, your dead wrong, went both ways, for the application the 302's are better. Yes, you are DEAD WRONG.

Probably because you don't want to argue with someone who has actually built a engine before.

Wait till you get beat by an X headed 318 with that stroker and you'll see how wrong you are.
I don't want to argue with someone that brought his guns to the gun fight but forgot to load them.

[negaRam]

Originally Posted by TK

Back to the beginning. Your pre-magnum isn't really 60HP behind the magnum, no way, if you take a truck, like for like, not only will the pre-mag pull from the line better, but it isn't that much slower. I really think they measure the magnums at the crank with no accessories attached on a dyno with a tunes engine. I remember at that time, they were bragging about the 318 having more power than the 454. We all know thats BS. IN all reality, your pre-magnum isn't far behind, if at all. If the mag beats you in a race, it may just be gearing or transmission.

Dad wouldn't race with me, but he does have the 4-speed manual vs my auto. His runs pretty well with a 3" single exhaust through a super turbo. The '89 is just gutless, and I'm wondering if that is mostly due to the restrictive exhaust and possibly a clogged up 20-yr-old original catalytic. I'm not in an emissions county (yet), so the cat is gone when the exhaust gets done.

Down the line I would like to let it breathe better via porting the heads and maybe a slightly better cam, but I don't want to sacrifice much gas mileage. It has some minor ticking going on when I first start it up, so it may need some lifter attention before long anyway. I really need to find someone around here who knows mopars that I can trust to help me out with this type of hands-on stuff.

[turbododge]

The OP says he is looking at getting to 250hp, so argueing over whether the heads can product 450 or 490 is wasted breath. At 250, you are almost in the range of the stock 302's. A very light port with standard valves woudl get you there. Putting big port heads on a 318 inch, 250 hp engine will definitely take you backwards. It will be a stone at the lower rpms. Port velocity, quench, swirl, and turbulence are where it is at on the low rpm, moderate output stuff. I have 1.88/1.60 302 heads on the TT340 with only 208/201 cam and it is amazing to 4500 without the turbos ( I tested with them off). The low end on this engine is so much better than the old "X" head 210/220 engine that you wouldn't believe it.

For a streeter, I would just do up the 302's get to .040 quench, improve the intake and be good to go with a moderate cam.

[TK]

Finally! Another voice of reason!

Ignore dw and passing you, dw has been spouting and not doing for years, and I doubt the passing you has passed anything anyway.

As far as the gut-less, it shouldn't be, if it is, try exhaust, remove the air pump if it has one and if you can, and do a compression check. The ticking may be a valve or two sunk into the seat. 3" exhaust would be perfect. (Single)

[passing you]

Originally Posted by TK

Finally! Another voice of reason!

Ignore dw and passing you, dw has been spouting and not doing for years, and I doubt the passing you has passed anything anyway.

As far as the gut-less, it shouldn't be, if it is, try exhaust, remove the air pump if it has one and if you can, and do a compression check. The ticking may be a valve or two sunk into the seat. 3" exhaust would be perfect. (Single)

Wow look at you all flapping away saying bs about someone you don't know, thats intelligent.

Tell you what, you keep building crap and and living life in reverse so that chevy guys can continue to tell their story's of the few mentally challenged mopar guy's they beat such as yourself.

Yes 1 insult deserves another.

I'm gladly done with this nonsense.

[passing you]

Originally Posted by turbododge

The OP says he is looking at getting to 250hp, so argueing over whether the heads can product 450 or 490 is wasted breath. At 250, you are almost in the range of the stock 302's. A very light port with standard valves woudl get you there. Putting big port heads on a 318 inch, 250 hp engine will definitely take you backwards. It will be a stone at the lower rpms. Port velocity, quench, swirl, and turbulence are where it is at on the low rpm, moderate output stuff. I have 1.88/1.60 302 heads on the TT340 with only 208/201 cam and it is amazing to 4500 without the turbos ( I tested with them off). The low end on this engine is so much better than the old "X" head 210/220 engine that you wouldn't believe it.

For a streeter, I would just do up the 302's get to .040 quench, improve the intake and be good to go with a moderate cam.

Sounds good.

[dwc43]

Originally Posted by passing you

Wow look at you all flapping away saying bs about someone you don't know, thats intelligent.

Tell you what, you keep building crap and and living life in reverse so that chevy guys can continue to tell their story's of the few mentally challenged mopar guy's they beat such as yourself.

Yes 1 insult deserves another.

I'm gladly done with this nonsense.

LoL. Aint that the truth.

[dwc43]

Originally Posted by negaRam

The '89 is just gutless, and I'm wondering if that is mostly due to the restrictive exhaust and possibly a clogged up 20-yr-old original catalytic. I'm not in an emissions county (yet), so the cat is gone when the exhaust gets done.

Down the line I would like to let it breathe better via porting the heads and maybe a slightly better cam, but I don't want to sacrifice much gas mileage. It has some minor ticking going on when I first start it up, so it may need some lifter attention before long anyway. I really need to find someone around here who knows mopars that I can trust to help me out with this type of hands-on stuff.

The stock exhaust is pretty restrictive. A better route is to go duals with an x pipe and 2 1/4" pipe with some flowmasters. That will get you where you need to be with the stock engine and some mods. Glad your not in a e test city. We don't have them either. Cats the first thing to go on everything I drive. Be surprised at how much power you pick up and the weight savings too.

Hard to build power and keep the millage up and with a truck that makes it worse. Would be better to get the big valved 360 heads and cheaper than porting the 318 heads and not seeing much of a gain. Ticking usually comes from the poor lifters made back then. I'd try to keep the roller cam if you can, but they do cost more. No what you mean about finding a good machine shop that knows Mopars. Few and far between.

[turbododge]

Originally Posted by dwc43

Hard to build power and keep the millage up and with a truck that makes it worse. Would be better to get the big valved 360 heads and cheaper than porting the 318 heads and not seeing much of a gain.

This is just not true. Because it is a truck is another reason NOT to use the big heads. It is heavy, he needs low end torque to get it moving, and that is just what the big heads kill. He is not building an 8500 rpmp 318 with a 4500 stall convertor, he is trying to have a fun street truck. Ported 302's (lightly) will give him better power, wider torque curve, better detonation control, and probably better mileage on top of it.

[TK]

Originally Posted by passing you View Post
Wow look at you all flapping away saying bs about someone you don't know, thats intelligent.

Tell you what, you keep building crap and and living life in reverse so that chevy guys can continue to tell their story's of the few mentally challenged mopar guy's they beat such as yourself.

Yes 1 insult deserves another.

I'm gladly done with this nonsense.

Originally Posted by dwc43

LoL. Aint that the truth.

O look, DW found a friend............


Listen to turbododge, he knows what he is talking about. We have had this big port heads on a 318 dispute for years now........some just don't get it. I myself have had X heads on 318's, and let me tell you, they run great and spin past 7500, but not in a stock converter truck. Porting does the 302's a ton of good, match to the 2bbl gaskets, both intake and exhaust, maybe 4bbl gaskets, I cant remember what I did to my 390 now, but I am pretty sure it was the 2bbl gaskets, smooth out the transition, and most important, hog out the bowl to the exact size of the inside of the exhaust seat. The roof of the exhaust port can be opened a ton, and tap/drill the air pump holes under the port. While in there, I would cut down the exhaust guide to run higher lift without beating up the seal, and balance the springs. I had to cut down the head where the spring sits to do this. Another important thing to do it make sure you grind your seats to the lowest, so your valves all ride the same height.

[passing you]

While stem height is important, you do not want to sink valves just to make them even with one that has the highest stem height.

SB wedge heads like the valve high on the seat and you will kill flow by sinking them.

I would rather install seats on both int/exh If I was going for performance on a set of wedge heads that had sunk valves/seats.