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  #1  
Old 02-02-2009, 09:33 AM
powerwagon360 powerwagon360 is offline
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Default help 360 build

hello iv got a 77 360 block and have a set of 894 heads.im looking to have the block worked and was wanting to know how much should it go over?i havent billt a mopar yet just tuned one lol. i figerd you guys know a god formula for these heads and i have a edelbrock torker 340 intake wich i was told is a very good one and want to know if i should use it or is thear a beter singel plain out thear?
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  #2  
Old 02-02-2009, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
thear a beter singel plain out thear?
Ouch! Morning fingers, LOL.. Just pullin your chain.

But, seriously, a better single plane intake? MoPars M-1 is the only serious consideration I would make. I own both and while the Torker II 360 isn't to bad, but not to great, the earlier Torker intakes are best seen in a staic display case.

Do not overbore the cylinder block unless you need to.
The 894 heads are preety much the same as all other 340/360 small block heads. Minor differences. What head mods you could use or not depends on the engine combo and it's intended useage.

Answer me this;

What is the intended purpose of the build and in what vehicle will it be in?
Do you know what cam and gears will be used and the weight of the ride?
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  #3  
Old 02-02-2009, 01:19 PM
powerwagon360 powerwagon360 is offline
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i plan on puting it in a 68 dart swinger or a 70s duster. witch ever i can get chepest it will be a 727 car with ether 3.90s or 3.55s i have both gears laying around.and i have a crower altra comp pro hydraulic cam 282,292/480,503 i would like to use
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  #4  
Old 02-02-2009, 05:17 PM
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I'd look for a zero deck piston, like from KB or Fed-Mougal for compresion.
The heads would be bowl ported and back cut valves with 5 angle valve job to max out low lifts. Stock valves may be retained.
A dual plane intake for this still yet smallish cam. A RPM or equal will do great and still provide a single plane top end abilty. I've done the swap before, you'll gain excellent low speed driveabilty and power.

Top with carb size of your choice between 650 - 750 cfm. I would use Dougs headers and 2-1/2 exhaust with the 3.91's and a 27 inch tire.
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  #5  
Old 02-02-2009, 05:43 PM
powerwagon360 powerwagon360 is offline
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iv got a 3 angle job on the factory 2.02s. i havent ever done a 5 angle but ill ask my friend about doing it.do you think my factory dual springs are good for the cam or not? and i like the weiand stelth on the fords is it any good on the 360?thanks for the info
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  #6  
Old 02-03-2009, 02:05 PM
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A 3 angle is fine and theres no sense on taking it off to do more work that isn't worth the money spent on the 2 angles.

I think the spring question is a silly one since it is allways recomended to use the cam grinders recomendation to use there springs.
The condition of your springs are also an unknown and the question is a blind one for me to answer in any other way.

I have not used the Stealth myself. A good freind of mine used it on his mello 318 running low 13's and liked it alot.
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  #7  
Old 02-03-2009, 05:13 PM
powerwagon360 powerwagon360 is offline
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yeah the springs are factory the cam thats in now is only 454 lift. thank you for the advice i like the kb 107s ill get them,wut are some good rods i read some where to stay away from eagle?
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  #8  
Old 02-03-2009, 05:33 PM
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Stock 318 rod are lighter than the 360 rods.

The KB 107 will come as floaters, you can bush your rods, or you can hone them to fit the pin supplied by KB, or buy a aftermarket rod set. You will still need to balance the engine to build reliability into the engine.
.
In the real world, the cost of rebuilding a set of rods is very close to buying a set of new china rods. your choice.

If you have a good machine shop, then rebuild your own!
We run stock rods and turn our engines 6800-7200 twenty laps at a time. our season last for 30 races. I re-rod the engine every winter just in case. But if your going to have a rod failure, it usually comes from an oiling problem, not the rod.

Here is something interesting...magnum rods are the same lenth as the early rods, but weigh less than the old 318's I really want to play with that next engine build
John
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  #9  
Old 02-03-2009, 06:49 PM
powerwagon360 powerwagon360 is offline
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"The KB 107 will come as floaters" iv herd that befor wuts that mean? can a machine shop balence the rods?
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  #10  
Old 02-03-2009, 09:39 PM
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"Floaters" means your stock wrist pins won't fit. I'd suggest looking at Diamond pistons and pins and at least totally reconditioning your stock rods. A good machine shop can balance almost anything, but the more work they do, the more it costs. I'd also consider the Diamond "gap-less" file-fit rings. How high do you want to rev this motor? I guess John is putting about 150 hours on his rods before replacing them(Am I close?). But I don't think you'll abuse them as much as he does.
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  #11  
Old 02-03-2009, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powerwagon360 View Post
"The KB 107 will come as floaters"
Yes, the pins slip through the small end of the rod and are held in by locks at the pins eng inside the pistons pin bore.

Quote:
iv herd that befor wuts that mean? can a machine shop balence the rods?
WHAT??? english, english!!!!!!
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  #12  
Old 02-04-2009, 12:45 AM
powerwagon360 powerwagon360 is offline
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yes, sorry cant spell worth a flip when typing in a hury so wuts got to be done to use my 360 or 318 rods with the kb191s or kb107s?
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  #13  
Old 02-04-2009, 12:56 AM
Walkercolt Walkercolt is offline
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I think alot of people would suggest other brands of pistons, but to use the KB's the small end needs to be re-bushed and have the pins fitted to the rods. I would re-con the big ends and probably have them shot-peened, myself. What are these? 30 year-old steel? Think how much stress they have been under thousands of times. Perhaps new Magnum rods would be a good compromise. They'd need to be bushed and fitted too.
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  #14  
Old 02-04-2009, 01:14 AM
powerwagon360 powerwagon360 is offline
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i dident know that the pin was diferent. i asumed thay all are .984. but like i sed im lerning tring to get ideas for the build. im wanting bang for my buck. i live 10 minits from hp engines machine shop and my best buds dad has bilt fords and cheveys all his life for latemodel and modified cars and a craftsman truck team last 2 years he helped and showed me the 3 angle valve job so i have all the tools at hand i just dont know any one that has mesed with mopar and has built them befor,THts WHY IM ASKING ALL THE DUMB Qs.ALL IN ALL i want a 400 hp pump gas 360 for my x heads and a 727,A body car with 355s or 391s
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  #15  
Old 02-04-2009, 10:01 AM
powerwagon360 powerwagon360 is offline
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i was told to get a price on having my 318 rods done and compare that to scat oe eagles,im told that there is not a factory forged 360 crank??? my 13 has a forged crank but i cant use that.lol wuts a good aftermark forged crank?
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  #16  
Old 02-04-2009, 07:08 PM
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Power, the cast crank will live fine up to 5500 RPM's and I'd use that, or jump up to a 4" stoker crank and build a 408-ish motor. 400HP from a 360 on pump gas will probably cost as much as stroker, which will make 400HP with no strain. Displacement is an easier to build power on pump gas. Your "X" heads will need some exspensive porting work to get you to 400HP @360 CID. Look at it this way: It's not that hard or exspensive to make 1 HP per CID at 5500 RPM and get lots of torque in the process. The new crate Magnum 5.9 makes 380HP with EFI and new-tech heads. They offer a 425HP version that's not streetable(13.5:1 CR). I think re-adjusting how you want to get where you want to be will be a money-saver in the long run. A stroker in an "A" can get to be a very, very fast car, street drivable, and a lot more reliable, and you won't need to work on it all the time. Hughes Engines, Ray Barton,Chenowith Racing,Speed-O Motive, Muscle Motors, Indy Cylinder Heads and more can tell you how to do it. I've used Hughes, I liked them. Dale is their small-block guy. A look at their web-site will give you some clues. A toll-free call will get you alot of info...some of which you might not like, but Dale is brutally honest. Ray Barton is almost down-right rude if you're an idiot. Contact these guys(and more) and listen to them. Take care.
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  #17  
Old 02-04-2009, 09:56 PM
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400 hp in a stock stroke 360 with ported heads should be cake without any exotic or expensive parts or machine work. The factory cast crank will live if it doesnt see much over 6500 rpm & is in good shape.
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  #18  
Old 02-04-2009, 10:08 PM
powerwagon360 powerwagon360 is offline
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sweet thats wut i wana hear lol, wut is the most CR i can run and still use 93 gas?
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  #19  
Old 02-04-2009, 11:44 PM
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Well I fell like an ass!
I have a new set of KB 191's here in the garage and Ive played with the pins.
You can use the new KB pins and "press" the pins on your rods!
I simply do not do this for the reason of removing a piston with a hole in it from leaning out or what ever damage that might happen during the season.

So I must apologize for stating that you must float the small end to make these pistons work. That is simply not true...

Now with that said. I float every damn rod that goes into our engines, small or big block. I floated the kid's Briggs and Straton motor when we ran WKA!
It's real cheap horsepower! Less friction.

Now to answer the last question. If you are using the J-heads or early style heads and you dont mind buying good gas, run the KB191's. They have a 150cc dome or pop-up and they are a great compression piston for the price.
The last set I bought cost me I think areound $215. Makes about 10.5 with open camber J- heads and the felpro thick gasket.

I run mine with a little more clearance than what KB calls for (I set ours up at .003-.004). and my top ring gap is .034.

If you decide to run the magnum heads... you have to run the KB 107's, they are a true flat top. For a street car, I would run the 107s just cause you can run pump gas.

KB-pistons do not like detonation! I run our cars at 32-34 degree of final timing. I know that there is more speed with more timing, but I have bunt the tops out of three pistons every time I got tempted.

So keep the time down and they will live for ever. I bought my first set of KB-107 in 1993 and they still run in one of our engines. So I know they will live if you are carful with the top ring gap, hole size, and timing.
Hope this helps
John
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  #20  
Old 02-04-2009, 11:59 PM
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Sorry about the ramble, but I just read back thru and decided that i cannot spell. use correct gramer, on walk and chew gum at the same time, so please forgive me. About the crank...

71-75 360 cranks are the best you can get from the salvage yard, more nickle in them, I tested that. also takes less mallory if you do a full balance.

SAVE YOUR FORGED 318 CRANK...it bolts right up to a 340 block and someday youll be real proud to have that!

Bearings are the key to making 360 live at high RPM. 1975 and up 360 main bearings come fully grooved. That lets oil get around the crank jurnals better. Your engine does not know what year it was built. So, as long as your mesurments are right. buy what you actually need.

They key to a good small block is oiling. Please read the oil post on the circle track side of this forum. GREAT INFO!!!!!

John
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  #21  
Old 02-05-2009, 12:04 AM
powerwagon360 powerwagon360 is offline
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thank you, so im thinking......77 360 standerd bore, my 318 rods or magnum (if good balenced),or scats I beams of ebay, kb107s, zero deck,62 cc X heads 50% port polished put on my budys flow bench,stock crank,or scat 4"? crower 282,292/480,503 cam,with the right springs, victor intake (port mached),old holley 3010. any sujestions?
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Old 02-05-2009, 12:23 AM
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Yep, you can build cubic inches or spend cubic dollars. we are limited to 370 cid on the circle track. So I have not built a stroker small block. BUT I HAVE BUILT STOKER BIG BLOCKS BEFORE THEY PUT THE CUBIC INCH LIMITS ON US... THE NAZI"S!
Stroke the shit out of it!
Only port if you really have a flow bench and can get the same flow out of the runners across the board.
Spend your time porting the intake as much as you can! There is a lot of horsepower that a lot of people never mess with. Free HP!
Dont get stuck on a single cam, I re-cam a engine if we travel to diffrent size track. I said this before in other post, but call bullet cams. Tell them what your doing, get the springs to match, and bolt that sucker in!

Good luck, Im very interested in what you come up with
John
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Old 02-05-2009, 12:31 AM
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Oh, about the bore,

Always open the hole up just to true up the cylinder wall. If you can find a torque plate use it for the final hone, if you or your machine shop dosent have one, its not the end of the world. Just make sure the cylinder walls are strait. 20 or 30 over is fine, but, the bigger the bore, the more cubes it makes...
I use 71-75 blocks and take them to 60 over. sonic check your block and see how far you can go with the oversize. the chevy gut is vary familure with that process. clean up your stuff and see what you build after you inspect what you have
John
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Old 02-05-2009, 12:45 AM
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"Bearings are the key to making 360 live at high RPM. 1975 and up 360 main bearings come fully grooved. That lets oil get around the crank jurnals better. Your engine does not know what year it was built. So, as long as your mesurments are right. buy what you actually need."

wuts the best bearings to buy? clevit 77s?
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Old 02-05-2009, 01:32 AM
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They are a fine bearing, but king bearings are harder and will "live longer"
I use the clevites that are coated with teflon (blue) but we replace bearings quite often.
I know of several engine builders who have reasonaly switched to Kings becouse the federal mogal bearings changed the compound to allow "more conformability" ...they are softer and will wear more than they did in the past.

Ive even used the sealed power bearings in the past without issues. The real secreat to bearing life is a true crank, turn it 10/10 if you have too, good oil, and a good filter systems. Change the oil and filter, and youll get more life from you engine is the TRUTH!
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Old 02-05-2009, 02:37 AM
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yeah...ok i checked out the circle trak board with the stikey on oiling mods, which one do you think i can benifit most from? i like this idea but....

"Drill a 7/16" hole and tap it for 1/4" NPT, run a steel line from that fitting to the back of the block. Drill a 3/4" hole in the back of the block right beside the oil pressure passage and directly below the intake surface. Install a #8 bulkhead fitting in the hole at the back of the block and connect it to the line coming from the front. Then connect to a remote filter and presto you feed the oil galley from both ends. Your bearings will thank you!"

were can i find beter info and pics at?
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Old 02-05-2009, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powerwagon360 View Post
yes, sorry cant spell worth a flip when typing in a hury so wuts got to be done to use my 360 or 318 rods with the kb191s or kb107s?
Just bustin, just bustin.

I read further on and your looking for 400 HP on pump gas. This is easy and a example of a cam to use would be a Comp Cam 280 duration Magnum series Hyd. cam with there valve springs and etc... parts. Pocket port the heads. Since you know of a exp. shop, just not into MoPars, the basics of engine building will apply. Heads should be ported accordingly. They'll know how. Use with regular KB107's. They should be a zero deck piston. Or very close to it. No need for Magnum pistons unless you have a Magnum engine. Just striaghten out the rods and your good to go.

No oil mods needed! Use a standard oil pump. Use the largest oil filter that fits with the headers.

A build like this only needs basic rebuild technics. ..Er techneics.. er... you get the idea...
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Old 02-05-2009, 11:58 AM
powerwagon360 powerwagon360 is offline
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so... i dont need that tube oil thing ma jig...to flow oil to the front bearings or wut ever its called.im guna call my machinest man and get a price for all this, and i have a very good hook up with my budys dad that has the shit to make the heads flow like the wind....one thing my head man as never mest with mopar heads is there any big trick i can tell him about the x head?can i find good info online?
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  #29  
Old 02-05-2009, 04:58 PM
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No, you don't need the oil thing-a-ma-jig mod. Standard oiling will be fine.

If your head man has real time behind head porting, you'll only need a pocket porting and gasket match. He'll know what to do. This is a basick porting and it doesn't really vary to much at all from Chevy, Ford or MoPar.
To make'em really flow alot of air would require some personal knowleadge and exp. on it.

Your build will not require anything more than basic prep.
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Old 02-08-2009, 06:14 PM
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The stock oilling system will be fine with 400hp. You should be making this below 6,500 rpm, so no need to go nuts with the oiling mods. A windage tray, a good baffled oil pan and good quality stock oil pump works just fine. You may consider the MP oil pump drive over the stock drive for higher rpm usage. The stock drives are prone to shearing off the tip.
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