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  #1  
Old 04-27-2009, 02:29 PM
cudachris cudachris is offline
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Default stock rocker arm strength

Hi guys,
while collecting parts and mocking up my 408cui engine, I thougth about "why not put the big cam into my currently running 360 to break in the lifters?" Cam is a 285XE comp cams 285/297adv 0.545"lift spring required has 400lbs/inch rate. Is this to much springload for stock rockers? If the cam break in goes fine, I´d like to drive a few hundred street miles with that cam in the 360. Will I break rocker arms?
Thanks
Chri
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  #2  
Old 04-27-2009, 03:35 PM
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cageman cageman is offline
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Hmm, are your lifter angles the exact same in the new motor? I doubt it, I dont think it is a good idea to break a cam in a different motor, Why not just wait?
I have a 567 lift cam with stock rockers, so I dont think it will be a problem. I have new ones though, not old worn out stuff.
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Old 04-27-2009, 04:03 PM
cudachris cudachris is offline
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408 block is a 1984 block, current 360 is a 78 block, never thougth of lifter angle yet. If I sweep a lobe, I will not ruin my expensive new parts.
In what kind of vehicle do you use your cam/rocker combo?
Thanks
Chris
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  #4  
Old 04-28-2009, 02:32 PM
70AARCuda 70AARCuda is offline
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stock non-adjustable rockers?
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  #5  
Old 04-28-2009, 03:14 PM
aarracer aarracer is offline
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Put on a full flow oil filter, like a Fram HP1 for the break in! Even if the cam goes south the rest of the engine (other than the oil pump) will be spared!
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  #6  
Old 04-29-2009, 02:35 PM
cudachris cudachris is offline
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Yes non-adjustable stamped steel rockers. It´s not just breaking in the cam, it´s also I´m curious how that cam feels like in a 360, compared to a 4
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Old 04-29-2009, 03:12 PM
MrChemist MrChemist is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aarracer View Post
Put on a full flow oil filter, like a Fram HP1 for the break in! Even if the cam goes south the rest of the engine (other than the oil pump) will be spared!
No it won't! I have the trail of broken parts to prove it. When all the little metal shavings from a wiped cam are heading down to the oil pan, some of them will get thrown up the cylinder walls via the crank, and then get dragged up and down by the piston skirts...had to bore the block another 0.010 to get rid of the scratches after a flat tappet cam failure.
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Old 04-29-2009, 03:21 PM
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The spring pressures are to much, I would put a crap set of stock springs on for break in.
Forgot to write that earlier.
I would just get a cam for the 360, you will end up liking it as long as it is a manual or a big stall.
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Old 04-29-2009, 03:23 PM
MrChemist MrChemist is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cudachris View Post
Yes non-adjustable stamped steel rockers. It´s not just breaking in the cam, it´s also I´m curious how that cam feels like in a 360, compared to a 408.
Why not just wait till you have all the appropriate parts for the build? I personally would not want to chance killing the current motor…or get the rocker gear for the 408 and stick it on the current motor (if its compatible with the heads).

The 408 is going to make SO much more torque it won’t feel the same…the 408 will make peak hp at lower RPM compared to th
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  #10  
Old 05-01-2009, 01:33 AM
passing you passing you is offline
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big block hyd rockers pushrod spear, sb not as much though crud ratio.
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  #11  
Old 05-01-2009, 02:27 AM
DonCarr DonCarr is offline
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http://www.molyslip.com/Products/MolySlipE.html
Or
http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/p...p?partid=23942
Or
http://www.schaefferoil.com/specialty/132.html
Or
Put stock rockers on 408 if you have 1.6 ratio
Or
Use stock springs on 408 for break-in period.
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  #12  
Old 05-01-2009, 02:02 PM
cudachris cudachris is offline
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Thanks for your replies!
Chris
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  #13  
Old 05-01-2009, 02:07 PM
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JVMopar JVMopar is offline
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Also use a break in oil, or oil additive. There have been alot of cam failures since the zinc (ZDDP) was lowered/removed from current oils. You don't want to wipe out a expensive cam.

STP oil treatment has a good amout of zinc in it. Royal Purple also has break in oil. And I believe Comp. Cam's has a additive for cam break in.
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  #14  
Old 05-01-2009, 06:00 PM
aarracer aarracer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrChemist View Post
No it won't! I have the trail of broken parts to prove it. When all the little metal shavings from a wiped cam are heading down to the oil pan, some of them will get thrown up the cylinder walls via the crank, and then get dragged up and down by the piston skirts...had to bore the block another 0.010 to get rid of the scratches after a flat tappet cam failure.

Well it worked for me, but then I only put 50 miles on it!!! Not a scratch anywhere! Nothing gets past the filter. And my dealership GAVE me the replacement mopar cam. Do you understand what a FULL FLOW FILTER IS??? Apparently You must have run it to destruction before you knew what was wrong. Not everyone would wait that long! You shouldn't make this kind of statement if you have not done it!!! Why do you think racecars run full flow filters, for the added cost?
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Old 05-02-2009, 10:54 PM
MrChemist MrChemist is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aarracer View Post
Well it worked for me, but then I only put 50 miles on it!!! Not a scratch anywhere! Nothing gets past the filter. And my dealership GAVE me the replacement mopar cam. Do you understand what a FULL FLOW FILTER IS??? Apparently You must have run it to destruction before you knew what was wrong. Not everyone would wait that long! You shouldn't make this kind of statement if you have not done it!!! Why do you think racecars run full flow filters, for the added cost?
I'm glad it worked for you, but I think you're missing the point...I understand that the oil is nice and clean AFTER it passes the filter (as it is after any filter), but its what the oil does BEFORE it gets to the filter that causes problems. That contaminated oil has to fall down past the cam and the crank both of which are spinning VERY fast, slinging oil everywhere (making it VERY likley to get some particulates in places where they don't belong like, bearings, cylinders, rings, etc)...but hey, lets say that you are an amazingly luck guy and the thousands of little pieces of metal missed everything. Now all those happy little chunks of cam lobe and flat tappet lifter are in the pan, waiting to get filtered...but first you have to go through...(pause for effect) the oil pump...OH YEAH! Its BEFORE the filter, so the pump is going to get chewed up regardless.

Do I under stand what FULL FLOW FILTER IS...eh, yeah. Do you? They have been around since the 1940's...

So please don't tell people that if you use this Super-de-duper filter that it will magically save you're engine from a cam failure. That would be a completely illogical hypothesis.

BTW, I caught my wiped cam lobe within minutes and it still did a lot of damage...good job on catching yours in 50 miles. You da man!
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  #16  
Old 05-03-2009, 01:47 PM
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ha ha ha ha ha
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  #17  
Old 05-05-2009, 01:00 AM
mhenesian mhenesian is offline
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Hi all,

I've been running the "stock" Mopar performance heavy duty stamped steel rockers arms with the Hemi springs (> 300 lbs open pressure) in my 440's for three race sessions (one with the 509 Mopar cam, one with the 480 Lunati cam), without any breakage or excessive wear problems. I just make sure that the engines are warmed up thoroughly before any race. Oil pressure is >72 psi at 1000 RPM at 185 t0 195 degrees F. Use 15/40 wt diesel engine oil or 20/50 wt Castrol GTX.

I think the limit on the stamped Mopar Performance rockers for small or big blocks is probably the "509" cams. My recollection is that only the later (like 1971 and after) production rocker arms were equal to the "heavy duty" ones. The rockers in the '60s were not as heavy duty, hence the bad reputation for "push rod piercing".

(Why are the Mopar springs so darn expensive today ! I can't believe that the "933" springs are over $10 ea ! The "848" springs are $18/ea)

Mark Henesian
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  #18  
Old 05-05-2009, 12:27 PM
aarracer aarracer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrChemist View Post
I'm glad it worked for you, but I think you're missing the point...I understand that the oil is nice and clean AFTER it passes the filter (as it is after any filter), but its what the oil does BEFORE it gets to the filter that causes problems. That contaminated oil has to fall down past the cam and the crank both of which are spinning VERY fast, slinging oil everywhere (making it VERY likley to get some particulates in places where they don't belong like, bearings, cylinders, rings, etc)...but hey, lets say that you are an amazingly luck guy and the thousands of little pieces of metal missed everything. Now all those happy little chunks of cam lobe and flat tappet lifter are in the pan, waiting to get filtered...but first you have to go through...(pause for effect) the oil pump...OH YEAH! Its BEFORE the filter, so the pump is going to get chewed up regardless.

Do I under stand what FULL FLOW FILTER IS...eh, yeah. Do you? They have been around since the 1940's...

So please don't tell people that if you use this Super-de-duper filter that it will magically save you're engine from a cam failure. That would be a completely illogical hypothesis.

BTW, I caught my wiped cam lobe within minutes and it still did a lot of damage...good job on catching yours in 50 miles. You da man!
Double ha ha ha
Apparently You Do Not understand oil filters.

A lesson for you. A standard oil fiter only filters between 10 and 20% of the oil at about 2 to 3 microns in particle size while bypassing 80 t0 90 % of the oil unfilterred. A full flow filter bypasses no oil while filterring at 10 to 20 microns, thereby allowing no large particulate past the filter.

I have seen many engines turn out like yours also, needing Complete remachining after cam failure. I only had to wash mine out with solvent. Absolutely NO bearing shell or cylinder damage (not even a hairline scratch). Just a new oil pump, camshaft and lifters, and of course a new FULL FLOW oil filter.

But I guess YOU will call this luck! ha ha ha.

I hope many with new builds are following this thread so they may possibly be saved some possible expensive grief. No magic, just filter facts not to be disregarded by fiction!

Now what is that saying "he who laughs last, hmmm?"
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  #19  
Old 05-05-2009, 01:36 PM
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What do you do when the FRAM goes T-up????
Cut some of them open after use and you will never say the name again around a good motor.
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  #20  
Old 05-05-2009, 05:15 PM
cudachris cudachris is offline
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Thanks for all your input. Actually the question is "will stock rockers handle a decent cam and springs?". To find out, I will put a decent cam into my 360 and see what happens. I can have the rockers crack-checked for free, I will cut a 360° groove into the #5 cam journal to make sure lots of oil get to the rocker arms. Running outer springs only for break in and first street miles. Then, with dual springs, fully ported 587 2.02 heads, air gap intake on a 10:1 360, I´ll let her ri
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  #21  
Old 05-05-2009, 09:45 PM
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STOP
There's plenty of oil up top already and more oil won't keep the rocker from braking if it's a load issue.
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  #22  
Old 05-05-2009, 09:46 PM
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I wouldn't drive it after cam break in without first putting the inner springs back in.
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  #23  
Old 05-05-2009, 09:54 PM
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Look the real deal is you'll probably only get around 1.4 ratio with those stamped paper weights, so make more hp, save yourself sum grief and pick up some 273 iron adjustable rockers or after market rollers.

just trying to help.....
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  #24  
Old 05-06-2009, 04:23 AM
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273 adjustables are just as inaccurate. plus more things to go wrong.
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  #25  
Old 05-06-2009, 11:02 AM
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really?

They worked fine at .620 lift and 9500rpm at el cajon speedway.......

have fun breaking parts.
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