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  #1  
Old 07-16-2009, 02:10 PM
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BelvedereII BelvedereII is offline
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Default Milodon rectal-cranial inversion

Having my 440 rebuilt, I opted to go with a 1/2" oil pickup. Had the machine shop drill out the mounting boss and gave them the Milodon pickup to install. The pan's the 7" deep model 30930, 3/8" pickup was 18325, worked great for 2 years. The 1/2" pickup I gave the machine shop was Milodon 18335, which I got from Muscle Motors along with rings, bearings, etc. for the buildup.

Machine shop told me the pickup was up off the bottom of the pan, but not to worry it's a deep race pan I'd be okay. I picked up the short block from the shop and when I got it home decided to check the pickup's clearance. It's 1.5" up from the bottom (playdoh). The original 3/8" pickup's spacer/brace actually contacted the bottom of the pan and rubbed a spot. So I called Milodon. Setting both pickups flat against the open/threaded ends, it's very apparent that the 1/2" pickup sits over 1" shorter.

Milodon told me that yes, this actually happens. The shorter pickup is for a different pan, and yes, it has the part number scratched onto it, was actually packaged as an 18335 and sold that way. They felt bad and offered to send me a new one. This was Friday the 10th of July, they'd have it to me on Tuesday. Saves me from having to buy one (no speed shops around have any on the shelf), and that's about as quick as I'd get one from Summit. That's enough time to assemble the motor and install it (in the garage, on my back) Wednesday, even if it's a late Tuesday delivery.

On Wednesday I called Milodon and got another techie. Had to explain everything to him all over, he looked up the record and found that the shipment was on Monday, it won't get here until Friday. (Race is 4pm on Saturday) Today, figuring they'd been this incompetent so far, I called again and asked for the address they sent it to. You probably already guessed, yep, they took down the wrong address (had to tell whole story again to yet a 3rd assistant). Now to deal with UPS and see if I can get the part in the morning. Nope, they have to make an unsuccessful attempt at delivery before they can hold the part for me....maybe by 7pm on Friday. (Race is still on Saturday)

I've taken the 3 week span between races to get this done. The motor's sitting on the stand, the pan held on with 4 bolts just to keep assembly oils from dripping on the garage floor. I can tell, I'm not going to make the next race in the series in two days.

Thanks, Milodon, and your corporate motto of "well, maybe". Next time, I'll assume they manufacture, market, sell, and support like they could care less about getting things right, and check everything when it's delivered. Then, allot a month or more to get things corrected. Keep fingers crossed. Couldn't hurt.

B II
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  #2  
Old 07-16-2009, 03:08 PM
peg leg peg leg is offline
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Default Your description

Of the anatomical inversion is priceless !
Seems to be the norm lately. So many vendors are staffed by federal government types, it's scary. Must be the stimulus!
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  #3  
Old 07-16-2009, 06:21 PM
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Ray Bell Ray Bell is offline
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Don't forget to let us know how this turns out...

(I think I'd be bolting up the ⅜" fittings about now)
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Old 07-16-2009, 06:28 PM
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ehostler ehostler is offline
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I would have said to heck with it and bought the correct pickup at a local speed shop. Then when the Milodon showed, I would have sold it on ebay. That would be a lot better than missing the next race.

Also, Milodon can call UPS and have them change the delivery address, while it is in shipment.
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Old 07-16-2009, 10:40 PM
John Kunkel John Kunkel is offline
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Another good reason to DIY, trust nobody.
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  #6  
Old 07-16-2009, 11:50 PM
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BelvedereII BelvedereII is offline
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Ray, I'm not sure what you mean by bolting up the 3/8", I'd need a lot of duct tape to seal the old pickup in the 1/2" threaded hole.

Ehostler, I said a lot more than the heck with it...no speed shops in my area have that pickup. They don't have much in the way of Mopar stuff period. For all that, my MP teardown gasket kit didn't have an oil pump mounting gasket. NAPA, the other parts stores, the old-school parts store, the speed shops, NOBODY had that gasket in stock. Ordered one through the Dodge dealership that carries the MP goodies, took 2 days. This is mostly roundy-round country, and they run chebbies. I trust Milodon's staff to do nothing. I went to UPS myself this afternoon and will be at the counter tmrw at 8:30a.m. as they said they'd hold it for me.


Here're the pickups, the difference is greater than it seems in the photo. Second picture is Mopower on hold.



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Old 07-17-2009, 12:33 AM
DartGT66 DartGT66 is offline
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Seems like the tubing in both are the same, could it have been possible just to cut the 3/8" pick up and weld the 1/2" thread portion on it? Anyway, Milodon sure ought to have handled that right.
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Old 07-17-2009, 06:06 AM
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Ray Bell Ray Bell is offline
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One thing I do notice here, you know what you're doing...

Not everyone would have sussed by just how much the pickup missed the bottom of the pan.
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Old 07-17-2009, 12:09 PM
aarracer aarracer is offline
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Nice to see someone with a messyer shop than mine, lol. You could always make the gasket by getting a piece of the correct thickness material at the parts store and tapping one out with a small ballpeen hammer! I've done this MANY times.
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Old 07-18-2009, 09:57 AM
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ehostler ehostler is offline
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Unless a lot has changed in Omah, you are mistaken. When I lived there (11 years ago) there were several speed shops. If they didn't have it on the shelf, they could always get it in 48 hours. I lived in Bellevue at the time. There were no worhtwhile shops in Bellevue, so I either bought in Papillion <sp?> or a couple shops in West O.

Even out here, the few speed shops around me cater to Chevy. They have very few MOPAR parts. They can always get the parts withing 48 hours.
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Old 07-18-2009, 10:14 AM
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BelvedereII BelvedereII is offline
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We've still got Total Performance/Ultimate Racing Products (they merged last year I believe) and Charley's machine shop is still up north of Omaha.

Check out the timeline. I was told on Friday it would be here on Tuesday. Plenty of time to put things together Wednesday/Thursday, test on Friday and race Saturday. No delivery on Tuesday, good faith says wait one more day for delivery on Wednesday, that's still enough time between Wed evening and Thursday. Called at noon on Wednesday to find out delivery won't be until Thurs or Friday.

If a speed shop could have had it in 48 hours, that's still a Friday delivery, isn't it?

The solution here of course was to believe the guys at Milodon were incapable of doing what they said and to order it from Summit as soon as I hung up the phone with Milodon on Friday. Would have had it on Monday. Then I could have returned the one that Milodon sent me to Summit.

Didn't think that would have been required, and why add the shipping expenses back and forth? Now I know.

B II
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Old 07-18-2009, 06:02 PM
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Ray Bell Ray Bell is offline
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So what's the net result?

Did you get to race?

Did you go see them and raise the roof?
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  #13  
Old 07-18-2009, 11:26 PM
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Well, kinda. Now I know what kind of time my Dakota turns!! 10.99 in the 1/8th mile, but with a dial in of 11.11 that wasn't too good. No matter, after two time trials with R/T of .085 and -.039 I hit a .311 in eliminations and you know how that turns out. Probably one of the better "air" days this year, got a cold spell in our area and tied a record low last night.

About the 440; got to UPS at 8:30am Friday and at 9:00am found that while it sits taller than the first one it is still 1/2" off the pan. Better than 1.5" anyhow. It looks like the machine shop drilled the new hole/threads straight, maybe it's off a little but in threading the pickup in, it seems to be on the same angle as the 3/8" pickup was. The first techie at Milodon told me you can't bend the tubing much without putting a kink in it and I've heard the boss in the block is pretty thin so it's best not to put much strain on it. All I can say is "manufacturing tolerances" ?

So, I spent 12 hours (minus breaks and lunch/dinner time) Friday finishing the assembly and dropping it in. The times I've installed a motor with the tranny already in place have been nightmares of alignment but this time it only took two real attempts and a bunch of pushing, jiggling, twisting, etc. to get them together. Forgot about not installing the starter before installing the driver's side header and how fun it is to juggle the header, starter (old style) and dust cover while on my back. Pass side header fit tighter than the first time, seemed to wedge between the steering cross-bar and tranny/block. Bent the tranny filler tube too much this time and in bending the bracket I fubar'd it for good. Was mad at the time, ah well. Found out the tube from the 400/727 I bought last month fit without modification although you have to stand over the motor to get to the bolt. No problem with the hood off.

This morning I installed the plugs, wires and header collector gaskets and fired it up. It sounds like a diesel does when it's cold. Ran fine and idled well, a few shots on the throttle to 3300rpm or so found it revving quicker (or maybe I believe it would so it does) and I ran it to full temperature. Maybe a bit above that, as the system still has air pockets by the amount of coolant I could put in it and at one point saw 240deg on the gauge although it dropped right back to 180. Let it cool off, removed valve covers to find everything's working as before (only difference in the motor is the machining to .030" over and the new piston/pin/rod set). Re-torqued the rocker arms (just guessing here and taking the opportunity) and had the wife turn the ignition key with the coil disconnected just to see that the rockers all rocked the same. No noise at that point, tmrw I'll pull the plugs to see what they tell me and spin the motor with no plugs in place to see if there's any noise then. Called the machine shop to ask for any guidance, but they can't tell over the phone (I don't blame them, I was just looking for an experienced source).

Curious, but obviously I wasn't going to run it tonight.

B II
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  #14  
Old 07-21-2009, 02:10 PM
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BelvedereII BelvedereII is offline
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Pulled the plugs today, some had oil on them so I took off the intake.

When I put this motor together 2 yrs ago, it was pretty much just the shortblock from the Winnebago, I added 906 heads, headers and the Holley single plane intake. I used both sets of paper gaskets with the metal tub gasket, and some of the bolts were hard to get started, it seemed the thickness of all those gaskets threw things off a little.

Went the same route with all gaskets when I pulled the first cam for the one in there now.

After this bottom end rebuild, I decided to just use the paper gaskets between the heads and the metal gasket. Used Ultra Black RTV on both sides of the paper instead of the red adhesive/sealant I'd used before, thinking the RTV would seal any and all oil, taking the chance that I might pull air between the manifold and the metal gasket. Bolts did seem to line up easier.

Well, I got oil sucked into the intake ports. It was pooled at the bottom of the rough areas of the manifold castings and ran down the top of the metal pan gasket when I removed the manifold.

Can't see how it got pulled around the lower paper gaskets, being they were sealed with black RTV on both sides.

Heads were cut .010" back when they were assembled, and that doesn't seem like it should have mattered, but maybe using paper on both sides of the metal gasket gave enough pressure to seal the port bottoms enough for them not to pull oil.

Might explain the diesel sound of the motor when I ran it before--in searching old posts about piston knock I found that to be a possible cause. Time for new gaskets and trying again.

NOPE, JUST CHECKED THE INTAKE AND THERE IS OIL IN THE PLENUM. LOOKS LIKE IT'S BEEN SUCKED IN THROUGH THE PCV?? WILL REPLACE AND FIND OUT!! Oh, yeah, going to use just the metal gasket this time with RTV.

Well, there's no oil in the PCV hose, that coat of oil may have been in there for a while, the ball in the PCV valve still rattles, no oil in the carb passage right now either. Hmmmm.

B II

AARRACER, that's my garage, impersonating a shop! The wife's PT Cruiser has been sitting outside while I do this, me hoping it doesn't get nailed by hail.
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