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  #1  
Old 10-30-2009, 03:06 AM
cudabob496 cudabob496 is offline
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Default Oil Question

For 10 years on my big block Cuda I have used 10-30 synthetic oil. I'm thinking of going to 5-30 synthetic this winter, because the 5wt will flow quicker to the valve train at startup, where most of the engine wear occurs. What do you guys think. I know that there are folks that say on a performance big block, use 20-50wt dinosaur oil, but I've read articles that say you are wasting horsepower by pumping such thick oil. So, what do you think about 5wt-30?
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  #2  
Old 10-30-2009, 06:21 AM
Dart 360 Dart 360 is offline
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On an old engine I wouldn't use 5w-30, if the motor was new maybe, I prefer 20w-50 dinosaur for a peformance engine.
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Old 10-30-2009, 09:21 AM
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If you're having good luck with that 10-30w I wouldn't go any thinner than that. On the break-in on my 383 in my wife's mud racing truck, I went with 5-30w Mobile 1, with a jug of STP. The oil pressure was ok when cold, but when warm it dropped to 15lbs at idle warm, and 40lbs at 5,000. It was okay, but I was worried, especially when you loaded it real hard, it would drop some. So I switched to 20-50 dino oil and STP. now it idles at 45lbs at idle and 70lbs at 5,000 with no drop no matter how hard it's loaded. Oh and I didn't feel any difference in performance, between the two.

Just my experience.
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Old 10-30-2009, 10:14 AM
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Default Hard to say

I'd sure try a load of 5-30 synthetic. If youv'e been using synthetic in that engine, that long, you very likely have little wear, and the oil pressure should be good. If not, stick with 10-30 syn. Even in cold weather, 10-30 syn flows better when cold.
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  #5  
Old 10-30-2009, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rampage_82 View Post
On the break-in on my 383 in my wife's mud racing truck, I went with 5-30w Mobile 1, with a jug of STP. ......So I switched to 20-50 dino oil and STP.......
Almost every "expert" or manufacturer of syn oil I've ever read does not recommend syn oil for break in.

Sorry Guys but as far as dino oil being even in the same ballpark as syn, that can be filed along with "your safer with out seat belts".

I started using syn oil in the whole power train of my Pete 20 years ago, my engine, tranny and diff temps all went down 10 or more degrees on the hills and my fuel milage went up almost .5 miles to the gallon, the tranny shifted better and all componets lasted longer. Less heat=less drag=more power. I've used it in all my vehicles since then, including my Harleys and BSA. BTW the stupidest thing I've ever heard about syn is you can't use it in Harleys because it's so slippery the roller bearings on the crank will "skate" on startup and flat spot the balls.

Oil is alot like parachutes, nobody makes crappy stuff. Syn comes into its own under extreme conditions or when something goes wrong like a cooling system faliure.

But back to the original question, IM not so HO I'd stick with the 10-30 personally. You've used it for 10 years so it's doing the job for you and the argument could be made that being slightly thicker it would not drain off the top end as quickly as a lighter oil.
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  #6  
Old 10-30-2009, 08:42 PM
cudabob496 cudabob496 is offline
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I think Syn oil saved my engine once. I bent a pushrod overreving once, and a few days later while tooling down the street the lifter burped out, and oil pressure went to zero. I don't know how long it had been at zero before I shut it off. Went back to the garage, and worked the lifter back into the bore through the valve cover. Put in a new pushrod, and started right up and ran fine. The syn oil, because of its great capacity to not break down under high heat, probably saved my bacon. Also put in an oil pressure warning light after that!

Also, syn oil cars run .2 to .3 seconds faster in the quarter, if you got it in your engine, tranny, and rearend!
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Old 10-30-2009, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toad490 View Post
Almost every "expert" or manufacturer of syn oil I've ever read does not recommend syn oil for break in.

Sorry Guys but as far as dino oil being even in the same ballpark as syn, that can be filed along with "your safer with out seat belts".
Yeah I've heard that too, but the flat tappet cam was already broken in, it was just the first run for the bottom end, the cam, lifters, and heads were already all run it together on a previous motor. The Mobile 1 was what was available at 2 in the morning in my garage, so I used it. The only thing I really didn't care for, was the pressure dropping under a hard load, and that was why I went away from it.. it was probably fine, just gave me an uneasy feeling...
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Old 10-30-2009, 09:13 PM
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If you talk to a knowledgable synthetic oil rep, he'll tell you to run the 5 30 or 10 30 or whatever you want.

Why? Because there is virtually no difference in them, other than the label.

Full sythetic oil exceeds the specs on the label by quite a bit. If it was all labeled correctly, it would be something like 0-90. No one will buy 0-90.

The 10 30 sythetic you are running will provide protection at almost any ambient temperature you are liekly to see in you area.


Dino oil, yes big difference.
Synthetic, not so much.
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  #9  
Old 10-31-2009, 07:33 PM
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Does that mean they don't have much control over the manufacture?

Just a question...
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  #10  
Old 11-01-2009, 02:40 AM
cudabob496 cudabob496 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave5711 View Post
If you talk to a knowledgable synthetic oil rep, he'll tell you to run the 5 30 or 10 30 or whatever you want.

Why? Because there is virtually no difference in them, other than the label.

Full sythetic oil exceeds the specs on the label by quite a bit. If it was all labeled correctly, it would be something like 0-90. No one will buy 0-90.

The 10 30 sythetic you are running will provide protection at almost any ambient temperature you are liekly to see in you area.


Dino oil, yes big difference.
Synthetic, not so much.
that doesn't sound right: "if all labeled correctly,label should read 0-90." Viscosity is how fast it will flow through a small orifice. 5w-20 will flow faster than 10w-40, and 10w-40 will flow faster than 90w, for any given temp.
My Honda requires 5w-20, and if I put 10w-40, whether syn or not, it would probably hurt the engine due to excessive wear. The higher the number, the slower the oil flows to engine components at startup also.
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  #11  
Old 11-01-2009, 05:06 AM
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If your worried about oiling why not put a oil accumulator/prelube system on your car? They run about $400 with a electric selinod. FYI for anybody not familiar with them, they have a tank that has a selinoid or a manual valve on it, this is plumbed into your oil system and in the case of the electric the valve closes when you turn the key off and retains oil under pressure, when you turn the key on to start, it opens and pressurizes the oil galleries, with the manual system you have to close the valve before shutting the engine off and open it before restarting engine. I'm putting this on my Cuda, only because it will probably sit for long periods between use. I think it's unesesary in a vehical that's run with any regularity at all, but if it make you sleep better it's the way to go.

I love threads like this, they prove the old saying, ''just like anuses everybody has an opinion"
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Old 11-01-2009, 08:09 AM
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If you are worried about using your 10/30 just put in a block heater and plug it in for a few hours. Works great even in sub zero weather.
Personally I wouldn't worry about using 10/30 oil, never have had a problem with it, using it for yeas without a heater of any kind before block heaters were perfected to the point they are now and engines sitting outside and cold starting. Most of the time now have installed block heaters.
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  #13  
Old 11-02-2009, 05:55 AM
cudabob496 cudabob496 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toad490 View Post
If your worried about oiling why not put a oil accumulator/prelube system on your car? They run about $400 with a electric selinod. FYI for anybody not familiar with them, they have a tank that has a selinoid or a manual valve on it, this is plumbed into your oil system and in the case of the electric the valve closes when you turn the key off and retains oil under pressure, when you turn the key on to start, it opens and pressurizes the oil galleries, with the manual system you have to close the valve before shutting the engine off and open it before restarting engine. I'm putting this on my Cuda, only because it will probably sit for long periods between use. I think it's unesesary in a vehical that's run with any regularity at all, but if it make you sleep better it's the way to go.

I love threads like this, they prove the old saying, ''just like anuses everybody has an opinion"
Ya, but how many people are an expert in their opinion?
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Old 11-02-2009, 05:58 AM
cudabob496 cudabob496 is offline
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Well, used the 5w-30 synthetic. Oil pressure seemed to come up a little quicker, and is maybe when cold at about 80 psi, instead of 85 psi. All seems well. Maybe thicker oils are better when you have large bearing clearences, and you need oil pressure to be higher.
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Old 11-02-2009, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cudabob496 View Post
Well, used the 5w-30 synthetic. Oil pressure seemed to come up a little quicker, and is maybe when cold at about 80 psi, instead of 85 psi. All seems well. Maybe thicker oils are better when you have large bearing clearences, and you need oil pressure to be higher.
You don't need more pressure with looser clearances, there is where volume comes into play. I would rather have higher volume that high pressure any day.
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  #16  
Old 11-03-2009, 04:06 AM
cudabob496 cudabob496 is offline
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You don't need more pressure with looser clearances, there is where volume comes into play. I would rather have higher volume that high pressure any day.
I think the high volume and high pressure kinda go together. The more volume through the same size hole, the more pressure will build up.

I think engines need a minimum oil pressure, which means the oil pump is delivering a certain volume to maintain the pressure. If the oil pump has a max volume it can pump, and the bearings get loser and loser, then oil pressure will start to fall.
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Old 11-03-2009, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cudabob496 View Post
I think the high volume and high pressure kinda go together. The more volume through the same size hole, the more pressure will build up.

I think engines need a minimum oil pressure, which means the oil pump is delivering a certain volume to maintain the pressure. If the oil pump has a max volume it can pump, and the bearings get loser and loser, then oil pressure will start to fall.
To a certain degree maybe. Look at it in a way that you can actaully see what is going on. Take a garden hose and turn the water on and watch the flow at X pressure. Now put on a spray nozzle or hold your thumb over the end the pressure will build and spray the water either out in a fan or forward in a shooting stream the pressure in the nozzle has built up but the actual volume of the flow has decreased.
You can intall a HV oil pump with out a dramatic increase in the pressure (maybe slightly but not dramatic) or you can put on a high pressure pump and not increase the volume much if at all. Increasing pressure usually means adding a restriction as in an oil pump it is adding pressure to the relief valve spring holding it in more closed position some what restricting the volume. Same with a fuel pressure regulator.
The rule of thumb of 10 lbs. pressure per 1000 RPM's but you had best have enough volume to go with it. You can have 10 lbs pressure through a s pretty small opening and not much volume and not have enough oil flow to prevent a catastrophy.
In short increasing the pressure will not nessessarly increase the volume. IE: high pressure pump. But increasing the volume can increase the pressure slightly if the clearances are tight enough to restrict the volume supplied.
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Old 11-03-2009, 08:44 PM
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I came across a very good article on engine oil .Just google Dr.Ali Haas Motor Oil Basics
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Old 11-03-2009, 09:25 PM
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How about a $40 oil pan heater, and use whatever your comfortable with?
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Old 11-04-2009, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 340rt
I came across a very good article on engine oil. Just google Dr.Ali Haas Motor Oil Basics.
Brilliant, thank you!

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/faq...=haas_articles

Certainly lays a few myths to rest...
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Old 11-04-2009, 06:52 PM
cudabob496 cudabob496 is offline
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Well, I got through most of the above article. Seems my going to 5w-30 synthetic in my 496 was a good idea. Even sounds like I could go to 0w-30 and be okay. Because, as he said, 90% of engine wear occurs at startup, and a 0wt-30 synthetic is going flow very well at startup to lubricate parts, yet at operating temperature provide good protection.
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Old 11-04-2009, 09:51 PM
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Still doesn't take the place of a heater.

That said, why would a thinner oil protect better than a thicker oil at start up? A thick oil has more "cushion"?

I run syn 15w40 year round, and never had an engine failure that was oil related.

The one fallacy of the article, is it says your oil temp stays at say, 212F. Thats not true at all, the oil temp guage on my Cummins barely comes past 130 on a -40F day, and goes over 260 pulling hard in the summer where ex temps are constantly past 1100.

They key, and this is the reason my engines last forever, Taxis and police cars last so long, Shatto got like a gazzillion miles out of his dakota, is to not shut it off, Pistons heat faster than cylinders, rods heat faster than cranks........ You get the idea.

Uniform temp is more important than temp itself.
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Old 11-05-2009, 02:14 AM
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Originally Posted by TK View Post
Still doesn't take the place of a heater.

That said, why would a thinner oil protect better than a thicker oil at start up? A thick oil has more "cushion"?

I run syn 15w40 year round, and never had an engine failure that was oil related.

The one fallacy of the article, is it says your oil temp stays at say, 212F. Thats not true at all, the oil temp guage on my Cummins barely comes past 130 on a -40F day, and goes over 260 pulling hard in the summer where ex temps are constantly past 1100.

They key, and this is the reason my engines last forever, Taxis and police cars last so long, Shatto got like a gazzillion miles out of his dakota, is to not shut it off, Pistons heat faster than cylinders, rods heat faster than cranks........ You get the idea.

Uniform temp is more important than temp itself.
Well, if a car is sitting outside all day in 75 degree weather, and you start it up, the 15wt-40 will take a lot longer to reach the valve train than 5w-30 oil.
Thats what the article said. And 95% of engine wear occurs at startup.
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Old 11-05-2009, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by cudabob496 View Post
And 95% of engine wear occurs at startup.
Now another variable, cold metal wears quicker than hot metal, hense cylinder taper, colder at the bottom=more wear.

I go back to a oil accumulator it eliminates dry start ups with no compremise on oil viscosity. The best of both worlds. BTW I'm bidding on one now.
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Old 11-05-2009, 03:25 AM
cudabob496 cudabob496 is offline
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No doubt an oil accumulator is the way to go, if you are inclined to do the work.
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Old 11-05-2009, 06:59 AM
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No doubt an oil accumulator is the way to go, if you are inclined to do the work.
CB496, My oil pump has a port for one, but I don't think it would hard to drill into and tap a hole into the presureized side of the oil pump cover.
The pump is also adjustable from 80-200psi and pumps 33 gpm, System 1.

Here's Royal Purples' veiw on what oil weight to use, it's for Drag cas. I'm posting it becaus I was surprised at what they reccomend.

Domestic Engines - Small Block

Naturally Aspirated < 7000 RPM XPR 5W30
Naturally Aspirated > 7000 RPM XPR 5W20, 0W106
Forced Induction / N20 XPR 10W40, 20W50
Naturally Aspirated Methanol XPR 5W20, 10W40
Forced Induction / N20 + Methanol Nitro Plus 60

Domestic Engines - Big Block

Naturally Aspirated < 7000 RPM Solid Lift XPR 5W20
Naturally Aspirated < 7000 RPM Hydraulic Lift XPR 5W30
Naturally Aspirated > 7000 RPM XPR 5W20
Forced Induction / N20 XPR 20W50
Naturally Aspirated Methanol XPR 10W40
Forced Induction / N20 + Methanol Nitro Plus 60
Nitro Methane Nitro Plus 70, 80
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Old 11-05-2009, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cudabob496 View Post
Well, if a car is sitting outside all day in 75 degree weather, and you start it up, the 15wt-40 will take a lot longer to reach the valve train than 5w-30 oil.
Thats what the article said. And 95% of engine wear occurs at startup.
If that is the case, why is assembly lube thick?

You have to look at it the other way, thicker oil means more protection, and just because it was shut off, doesn't mean it is dry. Sure, the oil gets there faster, but what about the thinner oil in the meantime?

Just saying.....

Not to mention I really don't think 95% of engine wear occurs at start up, more like 95% occurs when something goes wrong.
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Old 11-05-2009, 06:17 PM
cudabob496 cudabob496 is offline
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Originally Posted by TK View Post
If that is the case, why is assembly lube thick?

You have to look at it the other way, thicker oil means more protection, and just because it was shut off, doesn't mean it is dry. Sure, the oil gets there faster, but what about the thinner oil in the meantime?

Just saying.....

Not to mention I really don't think 95% of engine wear occurs at start up, more like 95% occurs when something goes wrong.

The statment that 95% of engine wear occurs at startup is pretty much an accepted industry standard. A lot of experts feel that way.
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Old 11-05-2009, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK View Post
If that is the case, why is assembly lube thick?

You have to look at it the other way, thicker oil means more protection, and just because it was shut off, doesn't mean it is dry. Sure, the oil gets there faster, but what about the thinner oil in the meantime?

Just saying.....

Not to mention I really don't think 95% of engine wear occurs at start up, more like 95% occurs when something goes wrong.
My honda engine requires 5wt-20 oil. If I use 5w -40 oil, it will not protect the engine as well, and probably ruin it. So, I don't think thicker oil means better protection.
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Old 11-05-2009, 06:22 PM
cudabob496 cudabob496 is offline
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Originally Posted by toad490 View Post
CB496, My oil pump has a port for one, but I don't think it would hard to drill into and tap a hole into the presureized side of the oil pump cover.
The pump is also adjustable from 80-200psi and pumps 33 gpm, System 1.

Here's Royal Purples' veiw on what oil weight to use, it's for Drag cas. I'm posting it becaus I was surprised at what they reccomend.

Domestic Engines - Small Block

Naturally Aspirated < 7000 RPM XPR 5W30
Naturally Aspirated > 7000 RPM XPR 5W20, 0W106
Forced Induction / N20 XPR 10W40, 20W50
Naturally Aspirated Methanol XPR 5W20, 10W40
Forced Induction / N20 + Methanol Nitro Plus 60

Domestic Engines - Big Block

Naturally Aspirated < 7000 RPM Solid Lift XPR 5W20
Naturally Aspirated < 7000 RPM Hydraulic Lift XPR 5W30
Naturally Aspirated > 7000 RPM XPR 5W20
Forced Induction / N20 XPR 20W50
Naturally Aspirated Methanol XPR 10W40
Forced Induction / N20 + Methanol Nitro Plus 60
Nitro Methane Nitro Plus 70, 80
Dang, Royal Purple says a drag race big block solid roller can engine, which mine is, should use 5W20!! That pretty much ends this conversation.
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