Have You Ever Heard Of This?

[toad490]

I found this on another forum. It's to do with a engine a guy pulled from a RV and has the 440-3 casting.

"gh where did you get the -3 from, on the side of the lock right after the 440 cast numbers? if so the 3 means the casting grade on the block. the scale is from 1-10. smaller being the worse side of the scale. it doesnt mean the blocks bad, it just tells you the grade of the material mix being poured into the mold at the foundry where the block was made."

This is news to me, anybody heard of this?

[ehostler]

That is correct. It has also been discussed here, in the past...

[toad490]

Well I did a google search and the only thing I could come up with was that it was a RV casting with extra cooling passages. Maybe I'm wording my search wrong.

I also did a search on this site and couldn't find anything, except it's from a motorhome. Maybe you could try and post the thread.

[cageman]

Could be, I know my old 318 has a 3 on em as it is a better block, HD use. I think they have what is it, sodium filled exhaust valves too. syeel crank also.

Not to be confused with casting numbers for the number of times the cores have been redone too, the heads on the motor would kind of tell you that. Camper stuff is a little odd. Easy way to tell too if you see a complete motr is the plate on the bakc of the engine that the igntion box was attached too on the 440. That is how I know it was out of a camper for sure, maybe exhaust manifolds too, but that is on the bigger motorhomes, not the van based. You can use the block no problem with other heads.

[toad490]

I really find it hard to believe that any manufactuer would cast right into the block that they used inferior materials in it. I mean what would of been the first thing you'd look for if you were buying one new back in the day. It's not like it could of been kept secret.

[toad490]

Okay, I took this from 440source.com. There's a "dash number" after the casting number but it has nothing to do with materials used and is seperate from the 440-3 RV/industrial casting.

While we are on the subject of casting numbers, often there will be what is known as a "tooling revision number" or a "dash number" after the casting number. A 1968 440 block, for instance, might read 2536430-12, or sometimes there will just be a space, such as 2536430 12, or sometimes 253643012. While 2536430 would be the casting number, the 12 would be the tooling revision number, which indicates how many times the tooling (core molds) have been reconditioned back to the proper specifications or modified to include improvements. After so many "pours" the tooling gets worn and needs to be reshaped or reconditioned. So theoretically, higher numbers will be later dates and have any casting improvements incorporated into them. The only problem with this theory is that engines were produced in such volume that many many different sets of tooling were used concurrently to meet the necessary output. So while some may have lasted for quite a while, (in which case you will find later dates with earlier revisions) some got worn quickly or damaged and needed to be revised after a short time. So while in some cases, parts with later numbers may include some improvements the earlier parts may not have, on a practical level, it means nothing as far as the quality of the piece. In other words, don't waste your time looking for an early or late tooling revision number. Blocks, heads, water pump housings and many other cast parts have revision numbers as well.

[Ray Bell]

Yes, that's correct...

Some have surmised that it related to the quality of the casting, in particular in relation to core shift. Of course, the cast-in number would have been there before it was even poured, so how could it be?

Core shift is a real issue. We've just found the first Poly block we consider safe to be bored to 4.0" for racing purposes, we sonic tested about twelve blocks to find that one. And it's miles better than some.

[ehostler]

I didn't completely address your original post. While it was the grade of the casting, it had nothing to do with the material. A cast can only be used so many times, before they get a fresh cast. That is what that number is. At least if it is the casting number.

I'm not sure why searching here doesn't work right. There are posts that I made several years ago that the search engine is unable to find.

[John Kunkel]

The casting mold is only used once, it's made from sand and the sand is recycled after every use.

The dash number following the basic casting number is called the Casting Core Index Number, it is the number of cylinder core plugs that were replaced (sand is abrasive) in the casting core that was used to make the sand mold. This is not an "improvement" per se but just routine maintenance on the casting core. After a number of uses the entire casting core is worn out and scrapped.

As stated, it is thought that the higher the number of core plugs replaced the higher the possibility of core shift but this has never been proven.

[ehostler]

Johns the man.

I knew that I was missing something.

[Ray Bell]

Yeah, he's got age on his side...

[toad490]

[QUOTE=John Kunkel;792424]The casting mold is only used once, it's made from sand and the sand is recycled after every use.
QUOTE]

Wrong. The sand is formed in a metal die and that's what they are talking about. I'll take 440source.com's word on this.

[aarracer]

hmmm, mold versus die, to be or not to be, lol.

[ehostler]

Toad - you really should reread JKs posting and the information from 440source. They both say the same thing. If they disagreed, I would go with what JK said. Why, because he has been there and done that. The guys at 440source have not.

the 12 would be the tooling revision number, which indicates how many times the tooling (core molds) have been reconditioned back to the proper specifications or modified to include improvements. After so many "pours" the tooling gets worn and needs to be reshaped or reconditioned

The core mold is used to make the sand/casting mold. Molten metal is then cast on the sand mold. Once it has cooled, the sand is removed. That sand comes back out through the holes that the core plugs (also known as freeze plugs) are in.

The metal die and core mold are the same thing.

[ehostler]

Toad - you really should reread JKs posting and the information from 440source. They both say the same thing. If they disagreed, I would go with what JK said. Why, because he has been there and done that. The guys at 440source have not.

the 12 would be the tooling revision number, which indicates how many times the tooling (core molds) have been reconditioned back to the proper specifications or modified to include improvements. After so many "pours" the tooling gets worn and needs to be reshaped or reconditioned

The core mold is used to make the sand/casting mold. Molten metal is then cast on the sand mold. Once it has cooled, the sand is removed. That sand comes back out through the holes that the core plugs (also known as freeze plugs) are in.

The metal die and core mold are the same thing.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by cageman
Could be, I know my old 318 has a 3 on em as it is a better block, HD use. I think they have what is it, sodium filled exhaust valves too. syeel crank also.

Not to be confused with casting numbers for the number of times the cores have been redone too, the heads on the motor would kind of tell you that. Camper stuff is a little odd. Easy way to tell too if you see a complete motr is the plate on the back of the engine that the igntion box was attached too on the 440. That is how I know it was out of a camper for sure, maybe exhaust manifolds too, but that is on the bigger motorhomes, not the van based. You can use the block no problem with other heads.

Ah yes... there is a 318/3 block which differs from others. I don't know how it's signified on the block, but it exists...

It was a special truck engine and it also has different heads and different water passages, along with a different intake manifold.

Those syeel cranks are certainly worth finding, too!

[John Kunkel]

Originally Posted by toad490

Wrong. The sand is formed in a metal die and that's what they are talking about. I'll take 440source.com's word on this.

Where do you see the phrase "metal die"? Here's what they said..."the 12 would be the tooling revision number, which indicates how many times the tooling (core molds) have been reconditioned back to the proper specifications or modified to include improvements. After so many "pours" the tooling gets worn and needs to be reshaped or reconditioned."; compare that to what I said if you can comprehend. (Frank will help)

In reality the casting cores are usually made from hard wood, the pic below shows a typical casting core.

Their use of the word "pours" is confusing since the cast iron isn't poured directly into the casting core, the casting core is packed with a special moist sand which is then dried, then the casting core is removed and the the molten iron is poured into the sand mold. The term "pour" refers to the entire casting process for one series of blocks and several pours were done in a work shift...various raised symbols in the casting will indicate the date, shift and the sequential number for the pour on that shift .

[JVMopar]

The 440-3 would have been a heavy truck, industrial, or RV application. It specifies differences in crank, rods, pistons, heads, valves, valve rotator, etc. If you look through your 70's truck factory service manuals it will show the differences. Mines out in the shop right now so I can't give you the specifics.

[toad490]

Originally Posted by ehostler

Toad - you really should reread JKs posting and the information from 440source. They both say the same thing. If they disagreed, I would go with what JK said. Why, because he has been there and done that. The guys at 440source have not.

You've got to be kidding me, that's about as dumb a statement as I've ever seen on here. 440source has been doing this for years and have as much or more experience than anybody in the industry.

[toad490]

[QUOTE=John Kunkel;792483](
In reality the casting cores are usually made from hard wood, the pic below shows a typical casting core.QUOTE]

I take it back Ed, this is the dumbest statement made on the site. Hardwood engine casting cores for mass produced parts.

PS. John, I understand exatcly what you did, change a few words around from something you read and pretend it's your own idea.

[JVMopar]

Well I went out and checked the casting numbers on the side of my RV 440. I know it was indeed a industrial engine as it had the industrial heads, intake, w/p housing, etc. It is a 440-1 casting.

[John Kunkel]

Originally Posted by toad490

I take it back Ed, this is the dumbest statement made on the site. Hardwood engine casting cores for mass produced parts.

They say a picture is worth a thousand words but in some cases it's useless. You obviously don't know the difference between a casting core and a mold.

PS. John, I understand exatcly (sic) what you did, change a few words around from something you read and pretend it's your own idea.

Never said it was "my own idea", a typical distortion of the Frankie trained lackey. Actually, the info I posted is from an article written by E.F. Nowak from info supplied by Dowker Engines in Charlotte, MI. (517) 543-0249
It was printed in the January 1995 issue of Chrysler Car Enthusiast Magazine pages 52-53. (about 10 years before 440source was opened)

Instead of trying to pick a fight over everything I post why don't you use the time to better advantage and work on your quoting skills? They're seriously lacking. (Ask Frank for help on that)

[cageman]

I worked in a foundry once, we used wood to make the mold for the sand. It was cheap to make. We made branding irons. My boss built his own engine block once just for shits and giggles. They had a cnc router that would cut layers of wood and then you would stack them all together to make the mold.
I always liked to watch the freshly poured stuff vibrating on this machine to knock all the sand out just to do it all over again.

[ehostler]

Toad - 440source hasn't been around all that long. JK has at least 10 times the amount of experience.

When it comes to casting engine blocks, heads, or cranks, they have never done that. They buy cranks from China. They sent specs to China for the heads. The heads and cranks made over there and then shipped to the states. They then clean up those parts, in a local machine shop.

They have been in business for a few years, selling matched stroker kits. The only started selling the heads about a year ago.

Of course, I still fail to understand how you do not comprehend that what JK and 440source say are essentially the same thing. They used slightly different terminology, but they still said the same thing.

[John Kunkel]

He just wants to find fault with everything I say, consider the source.