Some engines come in medium, large, and oh my goosh!!

[cudabob496]

Never knew it existed!!

http://www.schubeckracing.com/new2/i...osition=115:52

[DartGT66]

A couple of years ago here was a guy who was putting one in a '70 'cuda, but haven't heard if he ever got it ready. There aren't too many engines in existence, not even a handful I think.

[Ray Bell]

There may be no substitute for cubes, but this one has technology too...

Price could be daunting.

[John Kunkel]

Originally Posted by DartGT66

A couple of years ago here was a guy who was putting one in a '70 'cuda, but haven't heard if he ever got it ready.

I remember that, I believe he was a member of this forum for awhile.

I believe Schebuck's Eagle engine is big in the offshore boat racing world.

[cudabob496]

I think its Cudadrag that has one in his Cuda

[cudabob496]

Originally Posted by Ray Bell

There may be no substitute for cubes, but this one has technology too...

Price could be daunting.

Around $85,000!!

But, if you're rich, what the heck!!!

[DartGT66]

Yes, it was cudadrag. I even used to have some pics of the car in my computer, but have lost them. Even though those engines have "technology", their perofrmance doesn't seem to be too great. I believe it would be realtively easy to put out more power and tq with close to similar size pushrod engine. Howewer, it's still very cool!

[cudabob496]

Originally Posted by DartGT66

Yes, it was cudadrag. I even used to have some pics of the car in my computer, but have lost them. Even though those engines have "technology", their perofrmance doesn't seem to be too great. I believe it would be realtively easy to put out more power and tq with close to similar size pushrod engine. Howewer, it's still very cool!

Hard to believe their performance may not be that great, when they make 1200hp!?

[Cudadrag]

Yes I still have the car and am getting closer to at least fire. Parts are Freakin expensive and the economy caught me a little off guard. But I am hoping to test next year. Yes the motor is a little under performance for it's size. It dynoed at 1120 horse at 5200 rpm 1150 lbs of torque at 3000 rpm. This is on 91 pump gas. (measured at 10.1:1 compression.)

The head flow is 540 cfm on the intake side (4-valve 1.9" intakes 1.5" exhausts.) total flow is a little different since the valves interfere a bit with each other in real flow tests. but open is over 1000 cfm. The plan is to run and see "what happens" naturally aspirated. If the car accepts the setup 8 seconds should be possible. Again I am expecting it to buck a bit. The idea is to campaign as a 10.5 Outlaw. (King Street at Brainerd Raceway.) If the car accepts the setup VERY well then a Procharger-4 or turbo setup with E-85 fuel may be considered and compete at the highest level of 10.5 Outlaw. But ALOT of things would have to go right first

There are only 2 of these 904s. The first is in a 1/2 million dollar 32 Roadster (not able to run full out.) I have added a pic from the 2007 custom Hot Rod show and competition at Pomona.

I have attached some older pics. I will update soon.

[DartGT66]

Great work! Hope you get it running soon. There is definitely 8 sec potential, I believe our engine makes about the same tq at 3000 as yours, and 8's are no sweat. Don't remember what kind of drivetrain you have and your nautrally aspirated combo is very different, but our biggest challenge at the moment is to find a proper torque converter that can really hold under so much tq. But of course we also lack money, without that problem the others might have been laready cured too.

[cudabob496]

Originally Posted by Cudadrag

Yes I still have the car and am getting closer to at least fire. Parts are Freakin expensive and the economy caught me a little off guard. But I am hoping to test next year. Yes the motor is a little under performance for it's size. It dynoed at 1120 horse at 5200 rpm 1150 lbs of torque at 3000 rpm. This is on 91 pump gas. (measured at 10.1:1 compression.)

The head flow is 540 cfm on the intake side (4-valve 1.9" intakes 1.5" exhausts.) total flow is a little different since the valves interfere a bit with each other in real flow tests. but open is over 1000 cfm. The plan is to run and see "what happens" naturally aspirated. If the car accepts the setup 8 seconds should be possible. Again I am expecting it to buck a bit. The idea is to campaign as a 10.5 Outlaw. (King Street at Brainerd Raceway.) If the car accepts the setup VERY well then a Procharger-4 or turbo setup with E-85 fuel may be considered and compete at the highest level of 10.5 Outlaw. But ALOT of things would have to go right first

There are only 2 of these 904s. The first is in a 1/2 million dollar 32 Roadster (not able to run full out.) I have added a pic from the 2007 custom Hot Rod show and competition at Pomona.

I have attached some older pics. I will update soon.

Awesome!! The Mopar hobby is fortunate to have you!! I'd be tempted to paint sharks teeth on the front of your Cuda, similar to the World War ll P-51 Mustangs, considered by many to be the greatest fighter plane ever produced!!

(Oops, sharks teeth primarily on the P-40, and not the P-51!!)

[Cudadrag]

Originally Posted by DartGT66

But of course we also lack money, without that problem the others might have been laready cured too.

I hear ya Dart. I truely believe money can't buy happiness, but it can take away alot of stress and pain.

As far as drive train I have a JW Ultra bell Powerglide with their biggest baddest 11" custom converter. (3600 rpm stall. An engine this size will never be a "High Rever") Supposed to be good to 2500 horse, but again I am trading streetablitity for the strength. JW thinks about 50 miles highway before it just heats up too much no matter what cooler you use. The 904 has bolt holes for both Chevy and Chrysler. The crank has the hemi 8 bolt hole design. The short block is based off the 426 hemi design. Closer to a KB hemi. It uses cross mains which are angled 37.5 degrees. This puts the "true" stress of the crank to the middle of the main bearings. Schubeck never understood why Keith Black hemis didn't do the same since the pistons stroke towards the crank at 37.5 degrees. (Half the total 45 degrees of all Chryser and Chevy V-8s.) (I wished I hav a picture of the botton web. If I pull the pan in the near future I will at a couple pictures.)

The rear-end is the question mark. I bought the car as a "Rolling Body". The car was setup for late 70s Pro Stocker attempt by a local racer from Wisconsin. I believe it was his dream to compete with the Ronnie Sox's. The motor is using the same motor plate mounts that they had their big hemi sit. The car ran mid to low 9s in 1980. The car was rolling on a Dana 60 rear with 4.88:1 gears and an old 4-Link. The 4-link does not support coil overs so SS springs will be used in conjunction. But the 4-link does allow for pinion angle adjustments. Thus it's a cross between a today's 4-link and ladder bar rear suspention.

I am replacing out the rear-end guts for a full Strange gear, axle and spool setup. (3.55:1 Ratio. Again the motor's Max Rpm is 6500 thus a higher gear set is needed for trap speed. Besides I will need to "Bleed out" some torque anyways running only on a 10.5" wide tire as per rule. The glide with the higher 3.55:1 rear should put some of the numbers more down track.) Upgrading the brakes to discs. From what I was told the orignal builder spent a lot of time and energy getting the angle right so obviously I will be starting where they left off. Same angle as they used 30 years ago. We will see if a little old school technology will hold up and perform.

What could go wrong? lol!

[Cudadrag]

Originally Posted by cudabob496

I'd be tempted to paint sharks teeth on the front of your Cuda, similar to the World War ll P-51 Mustangs, considered by many to be the greatest fighter plane ever produced!!

(Oops, sharks teeth primarily on the P-40, and not the P-51!!)

I see you know your WWII warhorses. P-40 "Flying Tigers"

The Cuda is no match or near as important to yesterdays and today's fighting vehicles and personnel. I wish them the very best.

I am hoping to paint the Cuda Outlaw black with some front parts carbon fiber gray. The car should hide its power potential pretty well. As I mentioned if the car runs well naturally aspirated some boost may come later to push to 2000+ horsepower and 7 seconds. Since the 10.5 Outlaw rule demands a min car weight of 3000+ lbs I should have no problems competing in this crazy class. Once there the Cuda will have the same problems as everyone else and that is getting it to hook on 10.5 tires. The primary advantage the 904 will have is the motor is designed for this much power stock. The motor is designed for marine use, which is much more stressful to the mechanics of an engine than Drag Racing due to the vibrations involved.

Talking with Joe Schubeck (Engine designer and builder) there should be no reason why the 904 can't do hundreds of runs before rebuild. It is keeping everything else from blowing up around it.

[DartGT66]

We currently have a little over 1500 ft-lb and 1570 hp in our 477. I think we have about 50 runs overall, and so far nothing wrong that hasn't been caused by our own stupidity. The JW trans has worked fine alhtough it does make some heat, and the Dana 60 has worked flawless. We have a 10" converter that has been done as tight as it could, we also lower the stall using thick trans fluid (SAE80 mixed with some ATF), but still it stalls at 6200. And our peak power is at 6100! the Dana has got 4.10 gears, that's the longest you can get as soft pro gear, as far as I know. We haven't made extremely hard launches yet, DOT tires and no wheelie bars, 1.26 is the best 60 ft. The car weighs a little under 3600 lbs, so I believe your car will be about the same as ours when it's ready naturally aspirated.

[Cudadrag]

Wow Dart. Same power levels, same tranney, my converter also as tight as possible, pretty much same rear. I think I may have more questions in the coming weeks.

What Mopar make is your car? 70 Cuda with "High Power" from what I have seen are a little tough off the line as far keeping the nose down and launching straight. I know I am going have to get "Lucky" with the setup, biut doesn't mean not to try to make it right.

If you got pics please feel free to share. Someday when I have time I am going to have a site that can stream video. But I have to have a better product first. I'm sure none of you need to see videos of exploding driveshafts and misfiring half runs.

[bulldog426]

Originally Posted by cudabob496

Hard to believe their performance may not be that great, when they make 1200hp!?

yeah but with that many cubes there should be more power than that, you can get that much power out of a stroked wedge especially with an 8-71 sitting on top, for alot less than 85 grand, and for 85 grand you can have a few thousand horsepower out of a blown nitro injected hemi....

[cudabob496]

Just don't go all out on the first run!!!

[cudabob496]

Originally Posted by bulldog426

yeah but with that many cubes there should be more power than that, you can get that much power out of a stroked wedge especially with an 8-71 sitting on top, for alot less than 85 grand, and for 85 grand you can have a few thousand horsepower out of a blown nitro injected hemi....

Perhaps, but the 904 that can run on 87 Octane can probably last much longer than those engines. A blown nitro injected hemi may need to be rebuilt every 3 runs!! But I admit I'm just guessing! Then of course there's the serious COOL factor!!

[Cudadrag]

Originally Posted by cudabob496

Perhaps, but the 904 that can run on 87 Octane can probably last much longer than those engines. A blown nitro injected hemi may need to be rebuilt every 3 runs!! But I admit I'm just guessing! Then of course there's the serious COOL factor!!

That’s the idea. A 1471 can be mounted. Joe has made one blower manifold for that motor. I told him I am not going down that road. If boost is applied it will be turbos or a front pulley supercharger. I think I will try the natural aspirated pump gas first. Then we will see.


It would make a good dyno commando. 904 ci blown on alcohol. Ummm! 3000+. That would be stupid power. Unusable in a Cuda. Just fun to watch rev.

[cudabob496]

P51 Mustang. V12, 1650 cu in, 1650 hp, could go 2000 hrs with only valve adjustments, oil and gas filter changes. Twin superchargers to get enough air into it at high altitude. If any of you know how nasty a 50 cal machine gun is, this thing had 6 mounted in its wings. When Nazi Herman Goering found out about the P51, he is quoted as saying we have lost the war!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xITLB...eature=related

[dodger1]

Originally Posted by cudabob496

P51 Mustang. V12, 1650 cu in, 1650 hp, could go 2000 hrs with only valve adjustments, oil and gas filter changes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xITLB...eature=related

Rolls-Royce Merlin, amazing engine. But 2000 hours between overhauls was never attainable. 200, maybe. These engines were highly stressed for the technology available then. But definitely an elegant design, including the 4-valve, single overhead cam valve train.

[cudabob496]

Originally Posted by dodger1

Rolls-Royce Merlin, amazing engine. But 2000 hours between overhauls was never attainable. 200, maybe. These engines were highly stressed for the technology available then. But definitely an elegant design, including the 4-valve, single overhead cam valve train.

I read that just after the war, they upgraded the fuel supply system, and got a reliable 2000 hp out of them.

[bulldog426]

Originally Posted by cudabob496

P51 Mustang. V12, 1650 cu in, 1650 hp, could go 2000 hrs with only valve adjustments, oil and gas filter changes. Twin superchargers to get enough air into it at high altitude. If any of you know how nasty a 50 cal machine gun is, this thing had 6 mounted in its wings. When Nazi Herman Goering found out about the P51, he is quoted as saying we have lost the war!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xITLB...eature=related

i imagine that's 1650 hp at high altitudes in thinner air, imagine that baby at sea level, on a cool night...

[cudabob496]

Originally Posted by bulldog426

i imagine that's 1650 hp at high altitudes in thinner air, imagine that baby at sea level, on a cool night...

I think one of the superchargers does not kick in until higher altitude.

Hey, lets through a little nitrous on that baby!!!

[bulldog426]

Originally Posted by cudabob496

Hey, lets through a little nitrous on that baby!!!

now that's what i'm talking about!!!!!

[Cudadrag]

Originally Posted by bulldog426

now that's what i'm talking about!!!!!

Not sure how very large engines would respond with nitrous. First you will need a pretty good shot just for the motor to even feel it. In conjunction with a turbo or Supercharge may work. More to help spool up the boost. Like boost, smaller motors benefit far more than big motors. They are just more efficient. But in the end there is no replacement for displacement. The Merlin would need a hell of a tank and pressure. I know when rating Nitrous systems they are based on a 5.0 liter motor. Not sure if a (Lets say a 20 liter Merlin) would need 4 times the volume. I'm guessing at least that. Since efficiency goes down more pressure and volume is needed. To give it a 300 horse shot it would need a system and tank at lease 5 times larger then the mail ordered 300 plate you get from Summit. I'm sure someone has the math but would not be surprised if you have to drag a 30 to 50 gallon air compressor tank to make it work (Or about 10 bottles.) My 904 is 15 liters and would also suffer the math problems. and then that is only to produce about 12% more power

Any Nitrous guys out there to confirm or debate?

[dodger1]

[QUOTE=Cudadrag;801823]Not sure how very large engines would respond with nitrous. First you will need a pretty good shot just for the motor to even feel it. In conjunction with a turbo or Supercharge may work. More to help spool up the boost. Like boost, smaller motors benefit far more than big motors. They are just more efficient. But in the end there is no replacement for displacement. The Merlin would need a hell of a tank and pressure. I know when rating Nitrous systems they are based on a 5.0 liter motor. Not sure if a (Lets say a 20 liter Merlin) would need 4 times the volume. I'm guessing at least that.QUOTE=Cudadrag;801823]
Not a nitrous guy by any means, just an O.F. who recalled that the DB-601 V-12 used in the Messerschmidt bf-109 did use NOX as additional boost when required (probably when a Merlin-powered fighter was on it's ass!) More here, for you V-12 aero engine junkies http://www.airspacemag.com/flight-to...wilkinson.html I believe the German engine had considerably more displacement than the Merlin or Allison. Plus it did have direct fuel injection, something that didn't even appear on the horizon for the Allied motors. Maybe that made the use of NOX easier??

[cudabob496]

[QUOTE=dodger1;801837]

Originally Posted by Cudadrag

Not sure how very large engines would respond with nitrous. First you will need a pretty good shot just for the motor to even feel it. In conjunction with a turbo or Supercharge may work. More to help spool up the boost. Like boost, smaller motors benefit far more than big motors. They are just more efficient. But in the end there is no replacement for displacement. The Merlin would need a hell of a tank and pressure. I know when rating Nitrous systems they are based on a 5.0 liter motor. Not sure if a (Lets say a 20 liter Merlin) would need 4 times the volume. I'm guessing at least that.QUOTE=Cudadrag;801823]
Not a nitrous guy by any means, just an O.F. who recalled that the DB-601 V-12 used in the Messerschmidt bf-109 did use NOX as additional boost when required (probably when a Merlin-powered fighter was on it's ass!) More here, for you V-12 aero engine junkies http://www.airspacemag.com/flight-to...wilkinson.html I believe the German engine had considerably more displacement than the Merlin or Allison. Plus it did have direct fuel injection, something that didn't even appear on the horizon for the Allied motors. Maybe that made the use of NOX easier??

Ya, I'd heard that some WWII planes used nitrous. Dang Nazis were the most technologically advanced nation in the world. In 1942 they had a rocket plane that went 610mph!!! Its said that any spy who would have observed it would never have believed it!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Cz3f...eature=related

[Cudadrag]

Originally Posted by dodger1

[ I believe the German engine had considerably more displacement than the Merlin or Allison. Plus it did have direct fuel injection, something that didn't even appear on the horizon for the Allied motors. Maybe that made the use of NOX easier??

I know NOX can be delivered thru the fuel system but it is still boosting air pressure. And those giant motors had ungodly air flow. A NOX shot in a fighter would be useless unless maybe in a turn or climb. Just doesn't last long enough, and again would need a very large tank and delivery. Not sure what the Germans were thinking.

[cudabob496]

From web! Don't know how accurate! :

In car racing, nitrous oxide (often just "nitrous" in this context) is sometimes injected into the intake manifold (or just prior to the intake manifold) to increase power: even though the gas itself is not flammable, it delivers more oxygen than atmospheric air by breaking down at elevated temperatures, thus allowing the engine to burn more fuel and air. Additionally, since nitrous oxide is stored as a liquid, the evaporation of liquid nitrous oxide in the intake manifold causes a large drop in intake charge temperature. This results in a smaller, denser charge, and can reduce detonation, as well as increase power available to the engine.
The same technique was used during by WWII Luftwaffe aircraft with the GM1 system to boost the power output of aircrafts engines. Originally meant to provide the Luftwaffe standard aircraft with superior high-altitude performance, technological considerations limited its use to extremely high altitudes. Accordingly, it was only used by specialized planes like high-altitude reconnaissance aircraft, high-speed bombers and high-altitude interceptors.
One of the major problems of using nitrous oxide in a reciprocating engine is that it can produce enough power to destroy the engine. Power increases of 100-300% are possible, and unless the mechanical structure of the engine is reinforced, most engines would not survive this kind of operation.