Dumb Newbie Question..

[rampage_82]

Hey you guys, here is the worlds dumbest question.. I'm doing a cheapo rebuild of one of my 440's that I had laying around. When I pulled it apart I didn't pay any attention to which direction the notches were pointing on the pistons. I know if you put them in backwards you are supposed to gain some power, but it's hard on the rings because of the piston rocking. This is already going to be fairly loose on the bores, because we just honed the cylinders to break the glaze, and we aren't looking to get every ounce of power out of it. (Truck Engine.. Stock Pistons, 452 heads, stock 1970 intake, Comp 268H cam, stock everything else) Also the rods weren't stamped, and we had the crank turned. (oil sludge gave it a serious oiling problem) Anyways does anyone have any idea as to which direction the pistons go, I should have paid more attention, but when I pulled it apart, I was going to build it a stroker, and had no intentions of putting it back together with stock parts...

[Rich Kinsley]

The notches point to the front. Are the rods still mounted to the pistons? Do you know which cylinder the pistons came from? Ideally everything should go back in the same place. I suppose if the rods are reconditioned, and they should be, that they would be able to go anywhere. I think the pistons should surely go where they were but if that's not possible maybe you can mic it carefully and be sure the tolerances are acceptable. Of course you are using new rings and oversize bearings as required? Don't forget the cam bearings.

[rampage_82]

yes new rings and bearings... No idea which hole which piston came out of.. Like I said I was planning on throwing all of this stock stuff away, then my buddies 318 blew up, and he is in desperate need of a motor, and wanted a big block swap anyways, so he is trading me a set of Humvee tires, and a Dana 60 rear axle for my old parts... The rods were not reconditioned, just hot tanked... like I said CHEAPO... LOL ... We will see what happens.... Thanks for the info.. I've never put a motor together like this, and I pray that I don't have to again..

[rampage_82]

BTW I know this is icky and wrong, but he is an out of work electrician, and I'm trying to do the Christian thing and help a man in need... So I am giving him all of my labor on the swap, and just swapping my big block parts out for some tires and rear axle, and trying to put together something that will work for his needs...

[Rich Kinsley]

Oh my, It's a shame it wasn't marked. Sounds kinda harsh hot tanking the stuff and no recon. Are the piston pins floating or pressed? My shop teachers said that the wrist pin fit was the most critical part of an engine build. Now I'm sure there have been many McGiver builds out there that were just old junk thrown together and they ran at least for awhile. So if this is the best that can be done I guess you'll just have to give it a try. But don't be too shocked if it fails.

Actually I did a real cheap build for a student with no money when I was taking the shop classes for fun in the early 70's. It was a Volkswagen. One piston was collapsed so we knurled it but overshot it. So I took a mic and a BIG flat file and rolled the piston on the table using the file, pseudo machining, until it mic'd OK. The thing ran for 20K plus miles till a guy rear-ended and totalled it.

BTW I'm a retired IBEW Electrician. Are you sure you don't know my brother Darrell in Belen.NM ? He's retired Army and IBEW. You sound like him :-)

[JVMopar]

Don't worry about it. You should see some of the junk I've put together and they still run.

I agree just try and get the pistons matched up with whatever hole is gonna give you the best clearence.

I rebuilt a Perkins diesel out of a skidsteer last spring. The engine is no longer supported buy Perkins so parts are extremely expensive. And a reman motor runs around 6k. I put it together for 3k with my labor. I bought a vintage piston regroover off of ebay and regrooved the top groove of each piston then ordered oversized rings. The only thing I didn't like was he couldn't afford new liners (0.015" piston clearence is quite a bit) and the head had some small cracks starting. It probably would have added 2k to the engine. Well it's still up and running. Starts like a dream compared to what it was. Had 100 psi of compression when I pulled it out, and 400 psi when it went back in.

As long as you clean it good like any other engine you'd assemble you'll be fine.

[Dart 360]

Swapping the 318 for a 440 is not just a bolt in job, quite a few things that have to be changed, you could just pick up a 318 or 360 runner and drop in, may work out cheaper for both of you.

[rampage_82]

Yes I know about the swap, I've done six of them. I deal only with Big Blocks, and have a very large assortment of parts, and enough to do about 4 or 5 more swaps, luckily the truck already had the small brake booster, so that was one thing already taken care of, and I have 12 big block 727 cases ready to swap the 4x4 guts into... Also I don't have any small block stuff, except for the ruined stuff I've pulled out for big blocks... But thanks for the advise.. BTW the Engine is together now, and everything seems good to go, and it all feels good, so we will see what happens... (fingers crossed).... And Rich I don't know your brother, but hopefully he doesn't have to meet me at work (I'm a Police Officer at Belen PD... LOL) anyways guys thanks for your help...

[Rich Kinsley]

Originally Posted by rampage_82

Yes I know about the swap, I've done six of them. I deal only with Big Blocks, and have a very large assortment of parts, and enough to do about 4 or 5 more swaps, luckily the truck already had the small brake booster, so that was one thing already taken care of, and I have 12 big block 727 cases ready to swap the 4x4 guts into... Also I don't have any small block stuff, except for the ruined stuff I've pulled out for big blocks... But thanks for the advise.. BTW the Engine is together now, and everything seems good to go, and it all feels good, so we will see what happens... (fingers crossed).... And Rich I don't know your brother, but hopefully he doesn't have to meet me at work (I'm a Police Officer at Belen PD... LOL) anyways guys thanks for your help...

Funny my brothers Dodge Ram 4x4 was stolen from his driveway a couple years ago. Did you guys ever find it? It was silver. He replaced it with a yellow one for higher visibilty :-)

[rampage_82]

Yeah funny story about McGiver builds... I spent the coin and built the 440 in my race truck doing everything I "thought" was correct, I.E. sonic checked, reconditioned 6 pack rods, forged pistons, align bored, squared and decked the block, spent $1500 having the heads built by Dan Dvorak, balanced, roller rockers, and everything else I could think of... Anyways that damn motor gave me nothing but fits, and it finally died after 5 races... turns out there was a bad spot in my intake which gave a horrible vacuum leak on #8 cylinder, and I had a cam wipe. So the final tally I spent $4500 on the motor and had a ruined piston, horrible gouged cylinder wall, spun bearing, and scored forged crank...

My wifes race truck, I had a 383 that I had sitting in an old truck I'd bought for $300. I pulled it down, and the bottom end was flawless, so I threw in a Lunati Bracket Master 2 cam and lifters, stock intake, headers, and my Dvorak Heads.. I have raced the crap out of this motor for 3 years now, plus drive it everywhere, with no problems whatsoever. This motor absolutely screams, way better than my "race" 440 ever ran, just a head scratch-er I suppose...

[rampage_82]

Originally Posted by Rich Kinsley

Funny my brothers Dodge Ram 4x4 was stolen from his driveway a couple years ago. Did you guys ever find it? It was silver. He replaced it with a yellow one for higher visibilty :-)

I have no clue about that, I just started with Belen back in August. However Belen has a giagnormous problems with those who rather take what they get via thievery vs. actually working for it. However I would imagine the truck went straight south of the border, if I had to make an educated guess...

[Rich Kinsley]

My wifes race truck, I had a 383 that I had sitting in an old truck I'd bought for $300. I pulled it down, and the bottom end was flawless, so I threw in a Lunati Bracket Master 2 cam and lifters, stock intake, headers, and my Dvorak Heads.. I have raced the crap out of this motor for 3 years now, plus drive it everywhere, with no problems whatsoever. This motor absolutely screams, way better than my "race" 440 ever ran, just a head scratch-er I suppose...[/QUOTE]


Yeah, sometimes it works that way. The old 383 was just broken in not up. Heck you never can tell. You're tempting me to just put my 440 back together :-)

[Cudadrag]

Originally Posted by Rich Kinsley

My wifes race truck, I had a 383 that I had sitting in an old truck I'd bought for $300. I pulled it down, and the bottom end was flawless, so I threw in a Lunati Bracket Master 2 cam and lifters, stock intake, headers, and my Dvorak Heads.. I have raced the crap out of this motor for 3 years now, plus drive it everywhere, with no problems whatsoever. This motor absolutely screams, way better than my "race" 440 ever ran, just a head scratch-er I suppose...

Isn't that strange how this happens? I have found that if you use a motor that was running well and even changing everything you get a well runner. If you use a motor that was a less than steller performer and even though you completely gone through everything it just doesn't work out. It's as if the soul, bad luck, lemon juice or whatever you want to call it follows the build. This bad karma can follow a whole car as well. You know, some believe automobiles have a “mechanical” conscience. And that some are just "Born bad". I always thought that was nonsense, but then again. We have all seen things that just don't make sense, and who has stumpted even the most seasoned mechanic. Have you ever found yourself talking "nice" to your machine? Again, some swear it helps.

[JVMopar]

My wife says never buy a blue car. They are nothing but problems. I don't believe in it. My Blue '94 Sundance has 255,000 on it.

Some say it has more to do with what day of the week it was put together. Monday and the assembly line workers are too hungover to do things right and Friday they are to worried about getting out of there for the weekend to give a darn. So you want a car built on a Wed.

That's probably BS too.

Attention to detail and cleanliness are key. The only times I've had bad luck is when I've skipped the details. A EXPENSIVE lessons to learn.

Blew up one with almost nothing reusable, because I didn't line hone the block with main studs. I just installed the studs and slapped it together. Of course I didn't know I had to do it at the time, but learned that lesson. Was a really strong 360. Expensive lesson to learn at 18.

Wrecked another one because I didn't check the piston to valve clearence. Bought pistons that were advertized on Summit as large valve reliefs for high lift cam's. When the same part number in the JE pistons catalog said shallow valve reliefs for maximum compression. Wrecked pistons and heads. Another expensive lesson to learn at 21.

Had a repeat head gasket failure on my van because I didn't check the block deck and head for warpage. That worked out though because the first time apart I didn't see the vertical scratches in the #4 hole. Had a broke piston ring in that hole. So a total rebuild was in order anyways.

Other than that I've put together quite a few and haven't had any problems. And since I work at a small dealership I do it all except transmissions and alignments. Not that I couldn't do them just don't wanna. So I've done lots of engine work (it's a GM dealer LOL).

[RAMROD 440]

If you had $7000 in a motor it would be different, but a cheapo, put it together and don't worry about it! In 1980 I helped a friend restore a 58 dodge truck. It had a 318 and when he installed the new rings he did not grind them. When we set the motor in it was so tight it would not turn with 2 batteries! We used another truck and pulled it for 3 miles and it finally started. The truck is still running and owner now is still showing it. Do the math, 31 years LOL!!!