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  #1  
Old 04-14-2011, 04:27 PM
FractalFear FractalFear is offline
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Default somewhat new to cars seeking advice

First off a little of my background. My dad was a diesel mechanic for many many years. Growing up I helped him with diesel engines very little bit till the age of 8. After that I have helped him replace engines in mopar cars till I was about 17. I know how to rebuild engines with stock parts, thats about it. I have worked with the technical part or the whole troubleshooting issue very little in my life. Well I decided to switch careers, currently I am an IT specialist and I will be attending UTI as soon as I can save up money and attend.

So here is the part where I need advice.
When I was a kid I purchased a 74 plymouth gold duster. I replaced the motor mounts as it was previously a slant 6, and I dropped in a 318, had to do a lot of jimmy rigging to the wiring. But now I want to do everything right.

So I am starting off with the engine, I tossed out old engine as it was absolute junk. I picked up a 1988 pre-magnum 318 from a local junkyard, no cracks or anything, everything is sound and solid. I already bored it 30 over.

What I am looking to do is get more power from the engine. I was looking at getting these 2 items. What troubles will I run into if I choose this new cam and crank? Will any other modding have to be done to the heads?

jegs.com/i/Mopar-Performance/312/P4452759AB/10002/-1?parentProductId=746961

and

jegs.com/i/Mopar-Performance/312/P5007256/10002/-1?parentProductId=750388

everyone tells me to drop in a 360 crank, but arent the journals different?
How much better are these over the stock versions? Are they worth the money? I am also looking to increase the compression ratio, from my understanding you mill down the heads, is this correct? What troubles would I encounter or anything extra I would have to do to get this achieved?

Thats it for now, any help is much appreciated. I will be returning back for advice on rear ends when I get to that point.
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  #2  
Old 04-14-2011, 08:25 PM
dodger1 dodger1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FractalFear View Post
First off a little of my background. My dad was a diesel mechanic for many many years. Growing up I helped him with diesel engines very little bit till the age of 8. After that I have helped him replace engines in mopar cars till I was about 17. I know how to rebuild engines with stock parts, thats about it. I have worked with the technical part or the whole troubleshooting issue very little in my life. Well I decided to switch careers, currently I am an IT specialist and I will be attending UTI as soon as I can save up money and attend.

So here is the part where I need advice.
When I was a kid I purchased a 74 plymouth gold duster. I replaced the motor mounts as it was previously a slant 6, and I dropped in a 318, had to do a lot of jimmy rigging to the wiring. But now I want to do everything right.

So I am starting off with the engine, I tossed out old engine as it was absolute junk. I picked up a 1988 pre-magnum 318 from a local junkyard, no cracks or anything, everything is sound and solid. I already bored it 30 over.

What I am looking to do is get more power from the engine. I was looking at getting these 2 items. What troubles will I run into if I choose this new cam and crank? Will any other modding have to be done to the heads?

jegs.com/i/Mopar-Performance/312/P4452759AB/10002/-1?parentProductId=746961

and

jegs.com/i/Mopar-Performance/312/P5007256/10002/-1?parentProductId=750388

everyone tells me to drop in a 360 crank, but arent the journals different?
How much better are these over the stock versions? Are they worth the money? I am also looking to increase the compression ratio, from my understanding you mill down the heads, is this correct? What troubles would I encounter or anything extra I would have to do to get this achieved?

Thats it for now, any help is much appreciated. I will be returning back for advice on rear ends when I get to that point.
Welcome to the site! You'll find lots of info here re: your project. Gold Duster - I'd like to have one of those! As to the proposed engine swap - 340 cranks will interchange with 318's, but you're correct about the 360 journal size difference. No swap there. I'd certainly look at an aftermarket stroker kit - 370+ c.i, or just get a 360 short block.
As for heads, there's a ton of aftermarket stuff available, but mainly I'd look for a set of '302 heads from a late LA 318, or aftermarket LA heads if you go bigger on displacement.
I have a '2759 Mopar cam in my 360. It's pretty close to a 340 factory 290 HP cam. I like it, but I'm still using the stock '78 Ramcharger heads with 9:1 pistons. I believe more compression would help. Milling heads should include milling the intake surface the appropriate amount, so it isn't a one-step operation, which is why I went with higher-compression pistons.
I built this engine 12 years ago, there's a ton of Mopar stuff out there now that just wasn't available then. If I ever did it over, a stroker kit and prob. a Comp Cam plus some Edelbrock or Indy heads would be the choice.
Enjoy!
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  #3  
Old 04-14-2011, 10:06 PM
FractalFear FractalFear is offline
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Thanks, I read up as much as I could take in when I decided to do this project. Learning a little about camshafts, crankshafts, valves and such before I posted. But reading isnt how I really learn, I learn better visually and with hands on. So with my limited knowledge and the reading I have done, I am hoping to come to a conclusion on what to exactly do and hopefully understand things a bit better.

I looked up stroker kits, and they are... how to say... quite expensive. ranging from $1600+.

I am not really looking to dump a ton of money into the engine, I just want a little better performance.

So you are also saying its the piston heads that make the difference in compression, and not the cylinder heads? Or combo of the both?

If I was to purchase the above crank I posted, how would I determine what length connecting rods to purchase?

To be honest, I was looking to dump maybe $1500 total into the engine, as far as I know its 100% stock with the exception of the oversize by 30 I have done.
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  #4  
Old 04-16-2011, 09:10 AM
rampage_82 rampage_82 is offline
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Well if you've already bored the motor, then you will have to buy pistons anyhow so you can get any compression ratio that you want. I would suggest somewhere in the neighborhood of 9.5:1, with a cam with a duration @ .050 of the 218-225 range. Just leave it a 318 with the 302 heads. Get a good multiple angle valve job, new guides, and new stainless undercut valves, and do some bowl cleanup on the heads. With the 302 head I would also suggest an Edelbrock Performer small port intake, and any set of headers will help. That will increase your performance dramatically, and still be budget friendly..

A stroker kit is actually a good deal for the money, for say if you had the proper heads and other components matched to it. Because look at it this way, just buy your pistons, rings, bearings, machine your crank, resize rods w/arp bolts, and get it balanced. Your going to be within spitting distance of the price of the Stroker Kit, which comes with almost everything you will need to short block it...
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  #5  
Old 04-16-2011, 09:25 AM
crisser crisser is offline
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I`d take a look at these 2 cams. Good cams for the $.
Even the small one will wake up that stock 318. The 6900 should go in the engine even with no head mods, not even springs.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-6900/

This one will work also but, will start to get a little soft on the low end. I would use a small stall with this one.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-6901/

I think that Purple shaft from Jegs is a little too radical. The seat timing looks good as it`s on par with the Summit cams above. The lift is not too bad either. It`s the duration at 050 that bothers me on a stock 318. I think it`s too big and for the short seat timing, too radical unless you change springs and run a stall.

On the crank, leave it. Once you go there, you`ll spend a lot of $ to get the whole combo right.

Get a good 600 cfm 4 bbl carb to go with the cam, on a small runner dual plane manifold and get a good distributor with a fast curve and go with that.
Those mods will wake up that engine without breaking the bank.
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  #6  
Old 04-16-2011, 10:38 PM
dodger1 dodger1 is offline
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Originally Posted by rampage_82 View Post
Well if you've already bored the motor, then you will have to buy pistons anyhow so you can get any compression ratio that you want. I would suggest somewhere in the neighborhood of 9.5:1, with a cam with a duration @ .050 of the 218-225 range. Just leave it a 318 with the 302 heads. Get a good multiple angle valve job, new guides, and new stainless undercut valves, and do some bowl cleanup on the heads. With the 302 head I would also suggest an Edelbrock Performer small port intake, and any set of headers will help. That will increase your performance dramatically, and still be budget friendly..

A stroker kit is actually a good deal for the money, for say if you had the proper heads and other components matched to it. Because look at it this way, just buy your pistons, rings, bearings, machine your crank, resize rods w/arp bolts, and get it balanced. Your going to be within spitting distance of the price of the Stroker Kit, which comes with almost everything you will need to short block it...
I agree with the above. I missed the fact that you have a 1988 engine, which should have the '302 heads already. They are still small valve (1.78 intakes) 318 heads but allegedly have much better ports, plus they can take 360 or Magnum-sized valves if necessary. So you're already past that issue. As stated, a stroker "kit" gets you all the hard parts you'll need, except bearings and any machining work you might need to size the crank, etc. So it's a toss-up - either continue with what you have started with, or go find a late model pre-magnum 360 if you think you'll want more than 400 cu. in. down the road. If I had the '88 318 engine and $1600 to start with today I'd do the stroker thing. Just my 2 cents worth.
(BTW, I agree with your hands-on learning; I'm in the middle of rebuilding my first automatic trans. No matter how often I read the Factory manual, it only started to make sense after I got into the trans. )
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  #7  
Old 04-16-2011, 11:12 PM
FractalFear FractalFear is offline
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Thanks for all of the input, this is the stroker kit I was looking at:

speedomotive.com/ps-138-13-la-318cid-to-391cid-stroker-kit-1964-1992.aspx

But it looks like they want an awful lot for the add on items, am I wrong to think that? But it looks like it comes with everything I need including balancing.
Where most other kits I saw were 1200+ without balancing or rings.
I will also take up on your Advice Crisser and go with that mild cam. Will that cam and the stroke kit work well together?

Also are there any headers someone recommends? Right now I am looking at this for exhaust, but trying to find something that would fit it properly.

jegs.com/i/Patriot-Exhaust/737/H1050/10002/-1?parentProductId=752602

Thanks for the input guys, you have no idea how much this has helped me.

Also dodger1, I am currently in the process of rebuilding an auto trans as well as it has been sitting for years, so I am sure the seals are completely dry rotted. I had previously rebuilt it, but I never got to test it as my old 318 blew before I could slap it back on. But the first time I rebuilt it my instructer had us read our books and i was like WTF? But the moment I got my hands in there it was just pure magic!
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Old 04-17-2011, 09:55 AM
crisser crisser is offline
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You`ll have to decide how much you want to spend. Then do the road map of the parts needed.
If you want to wake up an engine a little, that`s easy. Once you go stroker, then you`ll find that your heads, intake, carb, exhaust, stall, trans, gears etc. could come into play afterward.

You have to build a COMBO not an engine. That`s fine if you have the $.One can build a combo piece meal with limited $ at a time. You`ll have to have it sit for a long time gathering the parts to make the combo work right.

On the above post, I would go with the larger shaft on a stroker kit. Or one from another vendor.
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Old 04-17-2011, 12:37 PM
rampage_82 rampage_82 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FractalFear View Post
Thanks for all of the input, this is the stroker kit I was looking at:

speedomotive.com/ps-138-13-la-318cid-to-391cid-stroker-kit-1964-1992.aspx

But it looks like they want an awful lot for the add on items, am I wrong to think that? But it looks like it comes with everything I need including balancing.
Where most other kits I saw were 1200+ without balancing or rings.
I will also take up on your Advice Crisser and go with that mild cam. Will that cam and the stroke kit work well together?

Also are there any headers someone recommends? Right now I am looking at this for exhaust, but trying to find something that would fit it properly.

jegs.com/i/Patriot-Exhaust/737/H1050/10002/-1?parentProductId=752602

Thanks for the input guys, you have no idea how much this has helped me.

Also dodger1, I am currently in the process of rebuilding an auto trans as well as it has been sitting for years, so I am sure the seals are completely dry rotted. I had previously rebuilt it, but I never got to test it as my old 318 blew before I could slap it back on. But the first time I rebuilt it my instructer had us read our books and i was like WTF? But the moment I got my hands in there it was just pure magic!
Uhh, as was stated before, make a plan on the motor, building a better performing 318 is a whole other animal, from building a 400+" stroker. The mild nice cam for a 318, will be waaayyy to small for a 408. As a minimum for a 408, the smallest head I would use would be the EQ / Hughes Iron Rams. A Performer RPM intake, and a cam with a min of 230 @ .050".
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  #10  
Old 04-17-2011, 12:51 PM
rampage_82 rampage_82 is offline
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Originally Posted by crisser View Post
I think that Purple shaft from Jegs is a little too radical. The seat timing looks good as it`s on par with the Summit cams above. The lift is not too bad either. It`s the duration at 050 that bothers me on a stock 318. I think it`s too big and for the short seat timing, too radical unless you change springs and run a stall.

Yeah the only problem, is that you are assuming that the Purple Shaft numbers, are comparable to other cam makers. I don't have any idea where they come up with their duration @ .050 numbers. I got the six pack/HP big block repop cam with advertized numbers of 228 / 241 duration @.050 .450" lift, on the awful 114 lobe center, because I have it in a Ramcharger with 1 ton axles and 38's. Well the cam is just as mild as a stock cam, and in my opinion it was a total waste of money. I mean if you get a Comp, Isky, Lunati or Crane cam with those numbers @ .050" you have a pretty aggressive cam, this one was totally disappointing.. I have seen a site that shows what the Purple cams really spec out to, and I will post it when I find it... ahh there it is... http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/mpcam-tech-c.htm
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  #11  
Old 04-17-2011, 01:31 PM
dodger1 dodger1 is offline
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The 4452759 cam is listed in my Mopar catalog as having 221/228 duration at .050, 110 centerline, .430/.450 lift. The 340 original, 4452782 is listed as having 228/235 duration at .050, 114 centerline, .429/.444 lift. The numbers for the '2782 don't agree with rampage's source (208/214 @.050) so I understand the confusion here.
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Old 04-17-2011, 02:55 PM
crisser crisser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rampage_82 View Post
Yeah the only problem, is that you are assuming that the Purple Shaft numbers, are comparable to other cam makers. I don't have any idea where they come up with their duration @ .050 numbers. I got the six pack/HP big block repop cam with advertized numbers of 228 / 241 duration @.050 .450" lift, on the awful 114 lobe center, because I have it in a Ramcharger with 1 ton axles and 38's. Well the cam is just as mild as a stock cam, and in my opinion it was a total waste of money. I mean if you get a Comp, Isky, Lunati or Crane cam with those numbers @ .050" you have a pretty aggressive cam, this one was totally disappointing.. I have seen a site that shows what the Purple cams really spec out to, and I will post it when I find it... ahh there it is... http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/mpcam-tech-c.htm
They are weird. I thought that the 050 #`s they advertise are high for the short seat timing. Guess that`s why thay call it "Mopar Madness"?
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Old 04-17-2011, 03:51 PM
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JVMopar JVMopar is offline
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The 4452759 cam is listed in my Mopar catalog as having 221/228 duration at .050, 110 centerline, .430/.450 lift. The 340 original, 4452782 is listed as having 228/235 duration at .050, 114 centerline, .429/.444 lift. The numbers for the '2782 don't agree with rampage's source (208/214 @.050) so I understand the confusion here.
Summit has those same wrong numbers for the 340 cam. When I got mine the cam card showed the 208/214 numbers.

That isn't the first time I've gotten the wrong info from Summit. I got a set of pistons that were advertised as large valve reliefs for large lift cams. Found out later the pistons I got were small reliefs for maximum compression.
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Old 04-17-2011, 08:43 PM
dodger1 dodger1 is offline
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Summit has those same wrong numbers for the 340 cam. When I got mine the cam card showed the 208/214 numbers.

That isn't the first time I've gotten the wrong info from Summit. I got a set of pistons that were advertised as large valve reliefs for large lift cams. Found out later the pistons I got were small reliefs for maximum compression.
So, does anyone here know the real numbers for this cam? (Apologies to fractal, we're kind of off your original topic)
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Old 04-18-2011, 12:06 PM
FractalFear FractalFear is offline
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Its okay that you are off topic, I am a little more confused now, but perhaps I can learn something new amongst this issue with places not advertising the correct duration on cams.

So if I am correct in all this confusion, if I go with stroker kit, ignore that mild cam, upgrade heads and get a more performance cam? If so that will have to wait as I won't have the funds to complete that.

So in my case would best bet for the time being to just upgrade the pistons since I already have the 30 over, get the mild cam, upgrade intake and carb with a nice set of headers?
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Old 04-18-2011, 12:29 PM
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So if I am correct in all this confusion, if I go with stroker kit, ignore that mild cam, upgrade heads and get a more performance cam? If so that will have to wait as I won't have the funds to complete that.
Yep. That mild cam was for a stock low compress 318.
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Old 04-18-2011, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by FractalFear View Post

So if I am correct in all this confusion, if I go with stroker kit, ignore that mild cam, upgrade heads and get a more performance cam? If so that will have to wait as I won't have the funds to complete that.

So in my case would best bet for the time being to just upgrade the pistons since I already have the 30 over, get the mild cam, upgrade intake and carb with a nice set of headers?
Yes... Bingo on both statements...
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Old 04-18-2011, 02:53 PM
FractalFear FractalFear is offline
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Yes... Bingo on both statements...
Awesome, thanks for all the help guys. This has been a huge benefit to me.
I honestly can't wait to start school for automotive. Its a shame that the schools here in AZ don't offer a Mopar elective. They all seem to offer Ford, Toyota and Nissan.
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Old 04-18-2011, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by FractalFear View Post
Awesome, thanks for all the help guys. This has been a huge benefit to me.
I honestly can't wait to start school for automotive. Its a shame that the schools here in AZ don't offer a Mopar elective. They all seem to offer Ford, Toyota and Nissan.
You don`t need or will get a Mopar elective.
Iv`e been a mechanic for approx. 25 yrs. Cars are cars. One needs to know the quirks of some. Engine performance is engine performance. Once you have the principles down, you can make anything run, even Chebbies or Hondas.
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Old 04-18-2011, 03:12 PM
rampage_82 rampage_82 is offline
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LOL, Mopars are kind of a black art.. They do abide by the same rules of physics and natural law that all engines have, however Ma Mopar went about things a bit differently. Just let a BBC guy look at the specs about Big Block Mopar headflow, camshafts that work, and even the 727 tranny. They will all just shake their heads and have a very puzzled look about them, and they just can't understand how we can squeeze 650 hp and 700 ft. lbs of torque out of a head with under 300 cfm of headflow, and a cam with under .600" lift and an 850 double pumper... LOL

Then to top it off, let me pull my 727 out of my race truck on race day, replace clutches, and get it back together on my trailer with all the dirt blowing around, in under an hour and then it work flawlessly with all stock parts (except for the bolt in sprag)... it really chaps their rears.... especially when they are dealing with cracked cases, or they can't even find a reason that theirs aren't working even with all of the money that they can stuff in em....
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Old 04-18-2011, 03:29 PM
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LOL, Mopars are kind of a black art.. They do abide by the same rules of physics and natural law that all engines have, however Ma Mopar went about things a bit differently. Just let a BBC guy look at the specs about Big Block Mopar headflow, camshafts that work, and even the 727 tranny. They will all just shake their heads and have a very puzzled look about them, and they just can't understand how we can squeeze 650 hp and 700 ft. lbs of torque out of a head with under 300 cfm of headflow, and a cam with under .600" lift and an 850 double pumper... LOL
Then they make all the excuses they can when you whip their a$$es. Seems like everyone else cheats or they cry "aftermarket" when all they use is aftermarket parts. Everyone else has to use 40 yr old factory parts to be fair.
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Old 04-18-2011, 05:04 PM
FractalFear FractalFear is offline
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Lol, yeah mopar fans in my entire family here. Its rare to find anyone that knows what mopar is, or someone that is a fan. But to my knowledge isn't ford transmissions almost identical to mopar? I recall reading somewhere, or perhaps it was my auto trans class where the teacher informed me that Chrysler did most of fords drivetrain systems back in the day. Is this even remotely correct?
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Old 04-18-2011, 07:22 PM
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Well real early on, Ford tried to copy the early Torqueflite with the Cruis-o-matic, but it was no Torqueflite...
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Old 04-19-2011, 12:15 AM
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The Dodge brothers built all the engines, chassis, and trannys for ford from 1901 to 1914. They also built trannys for olds and buick. The fords had more Dodge than ford in them...LOL Dodge built their first car in Nov 1914, by the end of 1915 they sold 45,000 cars putting Dodge 3rd place in auto sales. By 1920 Dodge sold 141,000 car's now 2nd in auto sales. Also in 1920 both John and Horace Dodge died with in 11 months of each other. They left more than 20 million each to their widow's. If this had not happened auto history would be much different. Many feel Dodge would be #1 in US auto sales not ford...
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Old 04-21-2011, 06:15 AM
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You can have the machine shop cut the valve seats to 1.88 and install the 1.88 intake valves. Mill the heads .030 and have the shop mill the intake manifold appropriately. Choose pistons to get the compression ratio you want, factoring the increase from milling the heads. Also, if compression ratio goes up a lot, you might have to use premium gas. It's hard to make a cam choice. Too radical and power brakes need assistance. I'm assuming you don't to spend the money for another manifold. What carb are you running?
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Old 04-22-2011, 11:13 AM
FractalFear FractalFear is offline
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So far carb hasnt been chosen, if I do decide to keep and use the carb from the 318 I tossed its a 3xx CFM edelbrock carb that I picked up from autozone many many years back.
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Old 04-22-2011, 02:13 PM
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The smallest Eddybrock carb I've seen is a 500, but those are generally used on multiple carb apps, such as tunnel rams etc.. There isn't any reason I can think of that a 500 wouldn't work, but I think you probably got a 600, if it was something Autozone had on their shelf. If so that is probably about the right size carb for a 318... What is the number stamped on the driver's side front mounting pad?, should be like a 1405 or 1406..
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Old 04-25-2011, 04:55 PM
FractalFear FractalFear is offline
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Sorry I didnt get back to you any sooner, I dont see any # stamped on the side, just WEBER with what looks like a Weinerschnitzel restaurant logo... I assume its a weber carb? I might have mistaken it for an edelbrock as the air filter cover is edelbrock.

Another question that isnt performance related. What is the difference in door panels from a 70-72 duster and a 74 duster? My door panels are going bad, and looking to replace but yearone only carries 70-72. If there is a difference, where can I get panels for a 74?
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Old 04-25-2011, 07:26 PM
dodger1 dodger1 is offline
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I believe Weber is the actual mfgr. of Edelbrock carbs, which may explain the markings on yours. We are all assuming that it is in fact a 4-bbl. Right?
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Old 04-25-2011, 08:11 PM
FractalFear FractalFear is offline
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Correct it is a 4 bbl
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