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  #1  
Old 07-31-2011, 12:56 PM
hoosiercharger hoosiercharger is offline
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Default 451 builds

I've seen a lot of info on the 451 stroker. My plan is take a stock 400 bore it .30 and have the 440 crank turned to fit the 400 block. My question is do I use the stock 440 heads . I'm kinda Tryn to keep a budget. After I have the bottom end ready where to I go from there. Would I need to do so much machine work is be better off buying a whole kit or would I be better off just buying the boring a 440 block .30 and getting the edelbrock performance top end kit. I'd like a car I could drive down the interstate but also eat mustang and crap cameros . If you know what I mean. I have a 72 charger so that's a lot of car to move. I need all the help I can get.
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  #2  
Old 07-31-2011, 01:37 PM
cudabob496 cudabob496 is offline
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to beat the oposition on the street, need a 3500 stall,and 3:91 gears.
and some MT ET Streets.
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  #3  
Old 07-31-2011, 01:39 PM
hoosiercharger hoosiercharger is offline
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Which build would be best tho.
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  #4  
Old 07-31-2011, 02:28 PM
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ehostler ehostler is offline
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You already have the 440. Why not make it a 496?

Also, if you're going to do the work do it right. Don't skimp on the heads. in stock form, the heads aren't that great. After machine work, they will be more expensive than a pair of aluminum heads that make more power.

Heads
Stroker kits
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  #5  
Old 07-31-2011, 03:22 PM
hoosiercharger hoosiercharger is offline
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What carb cam and intake would you suggest to go with that stroke kit and heads.
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  #6  
Old 07-31-2011, 04:52 PM
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ehostler ehostler is offline
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That would depend on which stroker you went with, stall converter, rear gears, tire size, what you expect to do with the car besides beating brand X cars.4

I highly recommend Racer Brown cams as he takes all of that into consideration before coming up with a custom grind on the cam.
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  #7  
Old 07-31-2011, 05:12 PM
hoosiercharger hoosiercharger is offline
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Well I'd like to be able to drive it a cpl of hrs away to the car shows but also have a power house when I need it. I guess I want it all. Lol. The tires will be close to stock and a mid 3.50's gear. The carb I was thinking 750 or 800.
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  #8  
Old 08-01-2011, 03:11 AM
DartGT66 DartGT66 is offline
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How much does the car weigh? The more displacement, the better it works in a "driver" and realtively nlong gearing and reasonable stall speed. All the other choices depend on the final displacement and of course the amount of money you are going to spend. Roller or flat tappet? And so on.
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  #9  
Old 08-01-2011, 05:57 AM
hoosiercharger hoosiercharger is offline
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Well its a 72 charger. About 3200 I think. I mite go with a 500 stroker. Looks like that's about $5000. Not sure bout the gear maybe a 3.50 or a 3.70. A mild stall and flat tappet.
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  #10  
Old 08-01-2011, 12:07 PM
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Slingshot383 Slingshot383 is offline
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If you take the 440 and stroke it to a 498, use the Edelbrock heads and intake, an 850 carb, get a nice 10" converter and keep the 3.55 gears. You'll be money ahead and have plenty of power for not a real high investment.
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  #11  
Old 08-01-2011, 04:49 PM
hoosiercharger hoosiercharger is offline
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That's what I like to hear. Thanks to everyone that has helped. I am open to other suggestions and info.
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  #12  
Old 08-02-2011, 03:09 AM
DartGT66 DartGT66 is offline
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I agree, 1 4.15" ro 4.25" stroke 400 or 440 would be a great choice for what you are looking for. However, propably not going to make it for 5000$. I just priced a 383 based stroker, basic stroker kit, Stealth heads and the needed hardware, hydraulic flat tappet etc. and got about 6000 in the parts neede in that particular build up, add the labour and machining and you are at? Sure there was some parts that might not be needed, and you might get some parts for a little less, but still way over 5000 in the engine parts alone.
Rtating assy, Muscle Motors 2200$
Hemi pick up 26$
Main studs 65$
Timing chain 50$
Damper 179$
Damper bolt 25$
Expansion plugs 15$
oil pump shaft bushing 10$
Cam + lifters 239$
Pushrods 200$
Rockers 299$
Gasket set 66$
Water pump and housing 200$
Intake 249$
Carb 550$
Cylinder heads 988$
MSD 6 AL 210$
Head bolts 79$
Engine bolts 142$
Valley pan 26$
Oil pump 69$
Oil pump shaft 59$

Distributor is used from the old engine, Oil pan will be homebuilt, windage tray is an old item and headers already exists.
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  #13  
Old 08-02-2011, 11:46 PM
hoosiercharger hoosiercharger is offline
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Yeah I see what your saying. I think more on machine work on stock crank a bore block .30 . I will Probly just go with a top end kit and a 800 carb. More of what's in my budget.
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  #14  
Old 08-04-2011, 10:30 PM
ShineRunner ShineRunner is offline
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I'm in the middle of the same build right now, 400 block, 440 crank, 451 cube stroker... if I didn't already have the crank I would be doin' a 470 low deck with a 440source rotating assembly kit. The 400/470 combo is a fantastic street mover, Ebrock heads if you got the $, (or just 440source stealth - plenty good) Ebrock RPM intake, Ebrock AVS 800 carb, comp XE275HL cam, basic headers and 2.5 dual exhaust (I like heddman Elite), and 2800-3200 stall convertor and 323 to 371 rear gears (355 the easy choise). You can do everything yourself if you wanna, like turn down a forged 440 crank and get some KB hyper slugs with either short or long rods (400 or 440) either setup works fine. But for my money the 470 low deck is the best bang for your buck and easily the most durrable long term build. Muscle motors also has a great setup for the 470, I would bet that it's much better quality than the 440 source stuff, but go with what you can afford and spend the rest on gas!
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  #15  
Old 08-04-2011, 11:54 PM
hoosiercharger hoosiercharger is offline
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The thing is I can or they advertise just with that kit elderbrock that is . I can get over 500 ft. Lbs in torque. Also I think 485 HP. That's heads cam intake timing chain. So add a 800 carb. That should be close to what I'm lookin for. I think.I'm putting a tranny in behind the 383 tomorrow. But still have a brake pedal that goes to the floor.thanks to everyones info and always appreciate more.
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  #16  
Old 08-05-2011, 08:16 AM
DartGT66 DartGT66 is offline
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I don't know what kin dof butt dyno horsepower you are talking about, but to get true 500 hp out of a 400 needs a lot more than what you are planning. Can't do it wihtout raising the stock compression ratio considerably. Or adding boost.
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  #17  
Old 08-05-2011, 08:28 AM
hoosiercharger hoosiercharger is offline
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No I have a 440. I can get a 400 if I want it. That's what they say u can get with a stock shortblock with 9.25 to 1 compression. With that kit. How bout Indy heads has anyone used there stuff. They are somewhat local for me.
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  #18  
Old 08-05-2011, 06:12 PM
Cudadrag Cudadrag is offline
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My 451.

400 block bored .035 over to 4.375" Block and bored $500

440 forged crank (Cut for 400) $200

B1/BS heads 2.20" intake 1.81" 65 cc closed chanber moderate port job
(Bought on e-bay complete) $2000

Additional head work $300

Ross flat top 99494 (510 gram) pistons
Summit Racing $585

Ross 1/16-3/16 piston rings $140

BME aluminum hemi rods w/ 7/16" ARP 2000 bolts (680 gram 6.758") $500
(Rods were sold as "overstock")

Some rod machining for fit with Ross piston $100

Custom comp cam 285 degree .585 lift solid lifter cam $250
(Comp 928 springs on heads dictated cam spec)

Comp cam Lifters $100

Edelbrock Victor 383 $120

New Holley HP 1050 (Metered for E-85 fuel) $660

Smith Brothers custom pushrods $100

Clevrite bearings tri 77 $200

Gasket kit(s) $100

Cremetec .027" (4.400" bore) head gasket $140

Total cost: $5995

Motor performance:
I have yet to have dynoed but appears by performance to be about 600 horse to the rear (Pushing 3000 lb Duster to low 10s) Once motor assembed the compression was measured about 12.7:1 (A little higher that anticipated. Piston decked close to .020" under zero deck) Motor redlines at 7500 rpm. Because of the light weight rods and pistons the motor snaps like a small block. I only have a 6 gal fuel cell so not very streetable but runs just fine on the street at low rpm. The e-85 fuel also lowers fuel mileage but is very forgiving with ignition timing. (and of course only $2,85 a gal.) I have yet to "really fine tune" but I hope to see if I can get the car to sub 10 sec 1/4 mile.

Like anything cost is higher than one hopes. But what I really like about the short deck big blocks with this 451 stroker build is that the mains are smaller thus spin with less the friction, The rotating assembly is shorter which is lighter thus the motor clearly raps faster than a simualrly build 440 stroke (lets say a 472) and the 472 440 build would certainly cost more than $6000. Just the block and crank would be at least $1500 more.

In fact I would put my 451 up against a simularly built 472. (assuming same heads, carb/intake and cam profile used) Even though I'm giving up 21 cubic inches I bet it would be close.
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  #19  
Old 08-05-2011, 10:22 PM
ShineRunner ShineRunner is offline
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Hoosiercharger... I must warn you against using that Edelbrock cam... it is not a good grind at all for a 383 or 400, and only marginal for a 440. It might start working well up around 500 cubic inches, but there are vastly better cams out there. I am still running that Edelbrock cam in my bigblock and I do not like it, I promise you that you would be much better off using the comp XE275HL in either a 383, 400, 451 or 470 low deck stroker. The Ebrock cam is a weird grind, the closest comercial cam out there like it is comps mutha thumpa cam which is just for makin' noise, and I must say the Ebrock cam does sound great, it just runs doggie... don't do it, but do run ALL the other Ebrock bits, I highly recommend everything else.
Oh... and don't trust ANY advertized numbers about HP and TQ, they are hardly ever close to what you will get.
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  #20  
Old 08-05-2011, 10:32 PM
hoosiercharger hoosiercharger is offline
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Umm....... what does HP & TQ stand for. Any info on Indy heads.
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  #21  
Old 08-05-2011, 10:36 PM
ShineRunner ShineRunner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cudadrag View Post
My 451.
400 block bored .035 over to 3.375" Block and bored $500
440 forged crank (Cut for 400) $200
B1/BS heads 2.20" intake 1.81" 65 cc closed chanber moderate port job
Additional head work $400
Cudadrag... did you set up the heads and intake for max wedge spec ports? how deep into the port/polish job did you have 'em go? just a bowl blend and gasket match or full hog / all out max flow effort? Just currious...
PS: nice 451 you got there!
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  #22  
Old 08-05-2011, 10:38 PM
ShineRunner ShineRunner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoosiercharger View Post
Umm....... what does HP & TQ stand for. Any info on Indy heads.
Sorry... HP= horse power & TQ= torque
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  #23  
Old 08-05-2011, 10:43 PM
hoosiercharger hoosiercharger is offline
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Duh...... its been a long hot day here . Put my tranny in so kind wearing down for the night.lol.
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  #24  
Old 08-05-2011, 10:47 PM
hoosiercharger hoosiercharger is offline
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In the 440 it has to be a forged crank right. How can I tell if it is or not.I haven't tore into the motor at all just took the tranny and flex plate off of it.
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  #25  
Old 08-06-2011, 06:09 PM
Cudadrag Cudadrag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShineRunner View Post
Cudadrag... did you set up the heads and intake for max wedge spec ports? how deep into the port/polish job did you have 'em go? just a bowl blend and gasket match or full hog / all out max flow effort? Just currious...
PS: nice 451 you got there!
Thanks. So far so good with the 451. The real test comes this labor day week-end. Hope it holds together. A new motor is a little stressful. But the testing I have done appears correct and the car picks up performance after every pass. (The motor was very tight but seems to be lossening up nicely.)

As I mentioned on the heads the port job is not near to max. Being I was going with a tamer cam profile there was really no need to really open them up. Plenty of metel left. They are replacing my heavly ported steel 452s. Even with just a mild port the B1s out flow the 452s. But real difference is the chamber size. 452s were 81 cc open chamber and the B1s are 65 cc closed. Thus with the thinner head gasket went from 10.2:1 to 12.7:1 compression (Approx. the pistons also gained closer to zero deck which helped on the cc gain. This of course was the end of the motor's pump 92 octane days. Thus the E-85.) The idea is when the motor needs it's first freshen up I may change the cam to a roller (Around the .700 lift range) then have Knowltons give a max port on them. (Knowltons Thunderheads is about 20 miles from my house. So far he is by far the best Mopar head guy I have seen.) He has a CNC program for the Brodex B1/BS head that really opens the flow numbers.
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