Question for John

[440roadrunner]

John if you read this I could use your input

Have a 77 Van 727 in my 67 Dart, currently a (bought used) Cheetah VB, no rear apply, no 1st gear compression, reverse pattern

I'm thinking of a Transgo TF-3 and put it into another body, even though I don't care for their destruction sheets (Have an unused TF-2 kit)

So I don't really want to molest the original VB out of the 77 Van.

What I have for cores:

Original 67 Dart 273 904 TF, probly not

/6 904 about a '73
318 904 about a '74
318 727 unknown year, core, probably early '70's

Are any of these a candidate for the TF-3 kit into my 77 727?

Also, what are your thoughts on OTHER brand all manual kits?

Do NOT have to be reverse pattern, but would prefer "rear band apply" and 1st gear compression.

Can I do anything with the Cheetah VB to change it in that direction?

[ehostler]

I split this into a new thread. Please refrain from bringing back a thread that died 7 years ago to ask a question.

MOD

[John Kunkel]

Either the '73 or '74 would be the best for a '77, the /6 will need the rear center mounting hole in the steel plate elongated.

The other manual kits work the same so brand name doesn't really matter.

If you want full manual with rear band apply there are pro-street offerings from A&A and Cope Racing Transmissions but they're not as cheap as the kits.

[440roadrunner]

OK, thanks

[Ray Bell]

An A230 would save you a lot of trouble...

[440roadrunner]

Originally Posted by Ray Bell

An A230 would save you a lot of trouble...

???? and just how do you figure that ????

You ARE talking about the "A230" as in THREE speed MANUAL gearbox?

Here's the "trouble" I would save:

I'd have to find a passenger car bell or scattershield

I'd have to find and install a set of stick pedals

I'd have to find a floor section for a stick, cut up my rust-free virgin console floor and weld that thing in there

I'd have to find clutch linkage, shifter, clutch, proper 360 flywheel, etc etc etc

I'd have to spend a CONSIDERABLE amount of time and "arthritis pool" doing this conversion

LAST I'd have to GO BACK IN TIME so my arthritis, leg injury, and other health problems would.......

ALLOW ME TO OPERATE A GREAT BIG HEAVY CLUTCH

If I was gonna go through all that, I sure as hell wouldn't be installing an A230!!!

[ehostler]

Ray is on a roll today. Suggesting that you should convert to the A230 and suggesting that another guy should replace his 451 with a slant.

[Ray Bell]

Just doing my bit to save the planet...

You've got to admit, Ed, it would cut out the annoyance of the burble the guy was concerned about.

Not that I'm all that keen on slants or A230s, I must say, but there are times and places.

And for our friend with arthritis, I apologise. I just hope you got a laugh.

[440roadrunner]

Originally Posted by Ray Bell

And for our friend with arthritis, I apologise. I just hope you got a laugh.

Well now that I know that's where you were headed, it's funny

I would make a deal with the Devil if I could still row a 4 speed

I even thought one time of trying to rig a power booster (same as on brakes) to operate the clutch.

I happened across this nice little Dart, now has the "interim" 360/ 727, just a driver, I can't afford to do a high dollar resto. And, other than some things that show up behind me, I'm having fun this summer

Ford 9" 3.89s and short tires, Gee ZUS that thing jumps

[ehostler]

Originally Posted by 440roadrunner

I even thought one time of trying to rig a power booster (same as on brakes) to operate the clutch.

You mean a hydraulic clutch? They've been around in factory trim for a couple decades. My '90 Laser RS Turbo had one. Many people are transplanting them from '90s JEEPs.

[440roadrunner]

No, not hydraulic, power boosted. But that idea is long gone. You might say "I've become a Torqueflite guy."

For the first time in my life (64) I'm starting to read up on how they work.

[Ray Bell]

Cut down in your prime...

At least you're working around the problems. The Dart sure would be nice, a shame someone corrupted it with the 9". I'm in the process here of building up 8¾s so people don't have to do that sort of stuff.

We never had A-body 8¾s here, none at all, I'm cutting down C-body housings (shorten them between the spring perches and the centre) and getting pickup axles cut and splined to suit.

Our later Valiants ('71 on) went to a rear end that's pretty much the identical dimensions to the mid- to late-'60s B-body size. All our cars from about '68 on had Borg-Warner 78 rear ends.

[440roadrunner]

The 9" Ford didn't exactly corrupt the car. It's out of a Versaille, pretty much a "bolt in." The spring perches were something on the order of 1/2" wider than the 7", overall width less than an inch different. Shim the pinion angle a little, get a conversion joint, I needed a shaft anyway because I swapped in a 727

NOTHING on the car was cut, welded, or otherwise changed

Someone said you can also use some of the earlier B body 8 3/4 "as is" by changing wheel offset. If I'd known that, I'd have looked harder for an 8 3/4

I was also looking to go "up" to the big bolt pattern. I have a late front end to go under the car for disc brakes, big pattern up front. Probably won't get done until later Too much fun driv'n it now.

[ehostler]

Why power boost a hydraulic clutch? A proper hydraulic clutch is already effortless with a very heavy pressure plate.

[440roadrunner]

Sorry Ed this is a point on which you are incorrect.

A hydraulic clutch is not "magic." The same overall mechanical ratio exists between your foot and the clutch WITH THE SAME MEASURED MOVEMENT as it does with a mechanical clutch.

In fact, in some cases, due to hose expansion, a hydraulic clutch can "lose" movement

The only thing that's changed "lately" (for me, way back in the '70s) was that some of us ran diaphram clutch covers instead of B&B

[ehostler]

The last hydraulic clutch that I drove had a 65,000 lb pressure plate. It took about the same amount of effort as a 20,000 lb pressure plate.

Most hydraulic systems are not engineered on a 1:1 basis. That is why they use hydraulics. Most hydraulic clutch systems are a minimum of 5:1 some of the better systems are up to 10:1. No magic involved. It has to do with bore sizes at either end.

In fact, they have been doing hydraulic systems so well that they have become more popular. Once it was only the MGs that used them. Now they are in exotic super cars. If they were as bad as you make them out to be, then I don't understand why Ferrari and Lamborghini use them in both production vehicles and race vehicles.

Better run out to the F1 teams and let them know that they are doing it wrong as well.

[440roadrunner]

Regardless of bore sizes, it all comes down to "end to end."

So much pedal travel results in so much finger travel, minus flex in mechanical linkage, and minus hose/ tube/ cup expansion in hydraulic systems

So if you ignore those two factors, it STILL comes down to so much movement at one end = so much movement at the other

If you increase movement at the pedal, you lessen effort and decrease clutch finger movement, and vice versa.

Hydraulic clutches have almost no advantage over a PROPERLY engineered mechanical setup, and "all things being equal" (ratio) there is no advantage in terms of pedal effort.

I'm not saying they are BAD. I'm saying that it's not magic. If the pedal ratio is same mechanical to hydraulic, then you'll have the same effort, the same pedal movement, and the same finger movement.

I think what really got the hydraulic ball rolling is the Japs. Just about every Datsun/ Toyota/ etc I ever saw was hydraulic.

HERE's a trick I'll bet most people don't know:

Original IHC Scouts (for no good reason) used a Girling system hydraulic clutch, which means you MUST use Girling fluid. Many mechanics didn't know that, and we used to sell LOTS of repair kits and slave/ master replacements back when Scouts were romping around the country.

[Ray Bell]

Are hydraulic clutches that unusual?

Every Pommy car had them in the fifties. Holdens had them from 1956 at least, Peugeot were a late starter in 1968. The Japanese were latecomers.

Where hydraulics win out in effort expended for clutch operation is the lack of friction in the pivots etc.

[chirorod]

Also, you don't have adjust hydraulics for wear in mechanical linkage. Why did they go to "juice" brakes a long time ago?
As far as mechanical advantage goes, it's true that it's all in the ratios, but hydraulic clutches don't have the friction loss.

[Ray Bell]

Hydraulic brakes took a lot of problems away...

They eliminated fractional individual adjustment of the shoes, cutting down on wheel locking, they didn't need tricky linkages and undoubtedly cost less to produce.