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  #1  
Old 09-26-2011, 10:42 PM
Green73cuda440 Green73cuda440 is offline
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Question Can i ask a question?

Does any one know about hydrocarbens?
I have a 440 thats blowing the hydrocarbens out of the water.
The standers for emissions Pass is 400, im at 2500.
My idea on how is fix it:
The timings to advanced so it burns to far from TDS, And burns to much gas. then it puts it all out as exaust...
So I'm thinking i have to retard my timing like 7 or 8 degrees.

Any in put?

Do you agree?
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  #2  
Old 09-27-2011, 01:50 AM
DartGT66 DartGT66 is offline
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Retarding timing will help. Howevet, that may not be the cause of the problem.
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Old 09-27-2011, 06:25 AM
chirorod chirorod is offline
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I hate to say this, but I think it's better to do a little deeper thinking here. Advanced timing is not going to make it burn more gas and not going to make the hydrocarbons go up much. The hydrocarbons they measure on the emissions test come from unburned or partly burned gas. It's a good test, because what it tells you is the engine is running badly. I am guessing you are running a carb setup, so it could be some kind of flooding situation. More gas is going into cylinders than can be burned. Could be bad float, float level, or bad needle and seat, or something as simple as a bad air filter.
But, most likely, it needs a tune up. Plugs, points and condenser (if you are running a points type ignition), rotor, cap, wires, fuel and air filters. And then set timing correctly. Anything bad in the ignition can make the hydrocarbons scream.
The most basic test is the compression test. You should do this first, because bad compression can also bring hydrocarbons up.
Another thing is the cam. Is this a stock cam? Is this the stock engine? Has this beauty been emission tested before? Modifying engines often makes them fail emissions.
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Old 09-27-2011, 03:31 PM
John Kunkel John Kunkel is offline
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Things I have done to help pass emissions test:

Set idle speed at the maximum allowable RPM (usually 1100)
Disconnect and cap the vacuum advance
Retard initial spark to 0° BTDC
Adjust idle mixture screws for lowest value; this requires a gas tester.

An engine that burns oil will raise the emissions so no adjustment can help that.
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  #5  
Old 09-27-2011, 05:59 PM
Green73cuda440 Green73cuda440 is offline
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Ok,
So this is a 440 out of a cornet rt.
It's bored over .0030. forged Pistions, steel crank, new Mopar Purple cam/400:488, new roller rockers, new mopar purple push rods, new heads, new headers, new custom exaust, all new gasets and seals through't the whole motor. new rebuild tranny. Less then 3000 miles on the engine...

I just bought new fuel lines, fuel filter, new fuel and water pumps, new header plugs, new wires, and new coil.

So all these things could just be stuff in the carb? Its a bran new holly 750 carb. i have no idea why something would be wrong in there, if the flout was out. it would run like shit. it runs rune and vary strong.

Yes, i have been through emissions, thats how I know i'm failing hydrocarbens.
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  #6  
Old 09-27-2011, 08:39 PM
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Hydrocarbons show the engines is running to lean. You may want to open the jets up.
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  #7  
Old 09-27-2011, 11:33 PM
Green73cuda440 Green73cuda440 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quietdad View Post
Hydrocarbons show the engines is running to lean. You may want to open the jets up.
In the carb? Damn, I wish i was better at carbs.
I'm in automotive school, I haven't got to rebuild my first carb yet.



But i have a basic concept I have common sense haha.

Can you give me a simple instructions on how I would open my jets?
Does it have to do with the fuel and air?
-------------------------------------------------------------------
One more question,

If your timmings off by to much would that kill HP and\or torque?

Thank you for your time =D

Mason
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  #8  
Old 09-28-2011, 06:57 AM
chirorod chirorod is offline
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I was asking whether your car had been through emissions before and had passed with this engine. I believe that modified engines usually don't pass. It might be that this car originally came with a factory high performance engine, so standards would be different (looser) so as to allow it to pass. As John said, you might try his tricks. Do you have an egr and/or an air pump? If you are supposed to have either one and you don't, hydrocarbons would be up. Is it supposed to have a cat? Or two if you have dual exhaust.
Check the power valve on the Holley. A stuck one might jack up the HC's,
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Old 09-28-2011, 02:13 PM
rampage_82 rampage_82 is offline
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Heck I've seen guys that just lean out their idle mixture and run it at as high of an rpm as possible. Also make sure your engine is as warm as possible, especially with forged pistons. I've even seen some guys throw in some vacuum leaks just for a leaner mixture to pass. One problem you will have is with your camshaft, it will have to run as fast of idle as possible because of the overlap in which you are not getting a clean idle. But then again I am disagreeing with a poster above who advised that the hydrocarbon test showed the engine was running too lean, I believe this is false because hydrocarbons show themselves because of too much or unburned fuel, not too much air, and not enough fuel. Also my tricks are exactly that to get you to pass emissions, not how you would want to run your car for an extended period of time. Also I've heard rumors that you can pass easier if you run E-85 than with either unleaded fuel or race fuel.
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Old 09-28-2011, 03:38 PM
Green73cuda440 Green73cuda440 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rampage_82 View Post
Heck I've seen guys that just lean out their idle mixture and run it at as high of an rpm as possible. Also make sure your engine is as warm as possible, especially with forged pistons. I've even seen some guys throw in some vacuum leaks just for a leaner mixture to pass. One problem you will have is with your camshaft, it will have to run as fast of idle as possible because of the overlap in which you are not getting a clean idle. But then again I am disagreeing with a poster above who advised that the hydrocarbon test showed the engine was running too lean, I believe this is false because hydrocarbons show themselves because of too much or unburned fuel, not too much air, and not enough fuel. Also my tricks are exactly that to get you to pass emissions, not how you would want to run your car for an extended period of time. Also I've heard rumors that you can pass easier if you run E-85 than with either unleaded fuel or race fuel.
Buy saying "leaning out the idle mixture" do you mean, the fuel and air mixture? and would lean be the the full in spot or screwed out spot?
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Old 09-28-2011, 04:43 PM
John Kunkel John Kunkel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Green73cuda440 View Post
new Mopar Purple cam/400:488, new roller rockers
Aha!!! I doubt if you'll pass emissions testing with that cam.
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  #12  
Old 09-28-2011, 07:38 PM
Green73cuda440 Green73cuda440 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kunkel View Post
Aha!!! I doubt if you'll pass emissions testing with that cam.
Yeah? There has got to be a way, I see cars that are 3x bigger then mine that have past.
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Old 09-28-2011, 07:39 PM
Green73cuda440 Green73cuda440 is offline
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One more question,

If your timmings off by to much would that kill HP and\or torque?

Thank you for your time =D

Mason
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  #14  
Old 09-28-2011, 07:50 PM
chirorod chirorod is offline
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To repeat just a little. Has this car passed emissions in previous years? Did it get this cam, carb, etc since it last passed emissions? Because John is right on the money. Upgrading the cam is a sure way to fail emissions. At idle and to somewhere up the rev range, with that cam, hydrocarbons would be way off the chart. Combustion is very inefficient at idle and to somewhere above idle with that cam. That's why it gives that nice lope and why it's tough to get enough vacuum to run things like power brakes. Are they testing at idle only or through a steady acceleration to 35 mph and deceleration to idle also? If it's the cam, etc, I don't think there is a way to make it pass.
Hydrocarbons test high when the gas is not completely burned. The hydrocarbons are fragments of gasoline. If combustion is good, most of the carbons and hydrogens in the gas are burned (oxidized) to carbon dioxide and water. The emissions test looks for carbon chains smaller than the heptanes, etc that are gasoline.
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  #15  
Old 09-29-2011, 11:35 AM
340_GTS 340_GTS is offline
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Wow, I am amazed that AZ is testing cars that old. As crappy as things are here in Connecticut, one thing the lawmakers did was exempt any car more than 25 years old from emissions testing. Get after your state legislators to pass a law like they did here!
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Old 09-29-2011, 05:09 PM
John Kunkel John Kunkel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Green73cuda440 View Post
Yeah? There has got to be a way, I see cars that are 3x bigger then mine that have past.
Three times bigger?

The Purple Shaft cams are the epitome of old school, I've never seen one that would clean up at idle/off idle.
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Old 09-29-2011, 09:31 PM
Green73cuda440 Green73cuda440 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chirorod View Post
To repeat just a little. Has this car passed emissions in previous years? Did it get this cam, carb, etc since it last passed emissions? Because John is right on the money. Upgrading the cam is a sure way to fail emissions. At idle and to somewhere up the rev range, with that cam, hydrocarbons would be way off the chart. Combustion is very inefficient at idle and to somewhere above idle with that cam. That's why it gives that nice lope and why it's tough to get enough vacuum to run things like power brakes. Are they testing at idle only or through a steady acceleration to 35 mph and deceleration to idle also? If it's the cam, etc, I don't think there is a way to make it pass.
Hydrocarbons test high when the gas is not completely burned. The hydrocarbons are fragments of gasoline. If combustion is good, most of the carbons and hydrogens in the gas are burned (oxidized) to carbon dioxide and water. The emissions test looks for carbon chains smaller than the heptanes, etc that are gasoline.
Unfortionitly i just rebuilt the engine. I have not passed with this engine since the rebuild. that's why i have come here. but There testing everything. So if i can find out how to get better combustion i might beable to pass?
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  #18  
Old 09-29-2011, 09:33 PM
Green73cuda440 Green73cuda440 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 340_GTS View Post
Wow, I am amazed that AZ is testing cars that old. As crappy as things are here in Connecticut, one thing the lawmakers did was exempt any car more than 25 years old from emissions testing. Get after your state legislators to pass a law like they did here!
What!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! your kidding me... I'm moving there. lol. I really wish they would. I wouldn't know how to get the word out... maybe online? haha.
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  #19  
Old 09-29-2011, 11:16 PM
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ehostler ehostler is offline
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Take your car to an mechanic that does emissions testing. They will run it up on the sniffer and then adjust everything to pass. Then they will run the actual test.

I had to do that in Colorado once. It took him less than 15 minutes to get it to pass the test. I think he charged me an additional $20 to make it pass.
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Old 09-29-2011, 11:23 PM
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ehostler ehostler is offline
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If you register your car as a collectable it is exempt from testing at 15 years. AZ H.B. 2357

Of course once the car is 45 it will be exempt from AZ testing as well.
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Old 09-30-2011, 12:42 AM
340_GTS 340_GTS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ehostler View Post
If you register your car as a collectable it is exempt from testing at 15 years. AZ H.B. 2357.....
Well, there is one solution! I suppose when it is registered as a "collectable" they limit the annual miles you can drive it?
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  #22  
Old 09-30-2011, 06:52 AM
chirorod chirorod is offline
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I think what this indicates is you have to find a tester who is sympathetic to mopars or to cars in general that have had a little attention paid to them. Tweaking them to get them to pass is not strictly legal, but there are some tricks out there. If they test in AZ by doing a cycle instead of just at idle, that's just about impossible to fake. You would have to run it at fairly high revs for it to clean out, but the dyno wouldn't allow that.
In MA, anything that isn't OBDII doesn't get tail pipe sniffed. That means 95 and older, except a very few 95's that do have OBDII. On the OBDII cars, the tester plugs in a scanner. If it reads no codes, it passes emissions. On non-OBDII cars such as my 86 5/A, no emissions test at all. In other words, no tail pipe sniffing on anything. All the dyno testers have been removed.
They used to use a chassis dyno and a sniffer. The test started at idle and then slowly accelerated in gear to 35 mph and then slowly back down to idle. Hard to fake that. I don't know how they test in AZ.
From what I understand, forget passing anything in CA if it isn't strictly stock and all replacement emissions parts have to CARB certified as well. And everything has to be there, because they do a complete visual with a chart in hand.
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