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  #1  
Old 06-28-2012, 11:30 AM
cudabob496 cudabob496 is offline
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Default Electrical Help

Hi, I put a new 6AL digital box on my Cuda. Now voltage is climbing above
15 volts when the engine is started, and there is amperage fluctuations on the amp guage.

I replaced the voltage regulator, but it is still occuring. I could put the old 6AL box back in, but MSD says the problem is something else in my system.

Do you think my alternator is screwy?

Thanks
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  #2  
Old 06-28-2012, 02:17 PM
Glenn E. Cozad Glenn E. Cozad is offline
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cudabob496, troubleshooting guide in the Mopar manual says to check the following for overcharging, grounded alternator field wire, field terminal, or connections. Alternator field grounded internally, have alt. bench tested. Voltage regulator sensing open circuit. Hope this helps. Thanx, Glenn.
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  #3  
Old 06-28-2012, 02:49 PM
cudabob496 cudabob496 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn E. Cozad View Post
cudabob496, troubleshooting guide in the Mopar manual says to check the following for overcharging, grounded alternator field wire, field terminal, or connections. Alternator field grounded internally, have alt. bench tested. Voltage regulator sensing open circuit. Hope this helps. Thanx, Glenn.
Thanks Glenn, makes sense, will do!!
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  #4  
Old 06-28-2012, 04:47 PM
John Kunkel John Kunkel is offline
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Is the charging system the pre-'70 single field or the '70 and later dual field?
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  #5  
Old 06-28-2012, 11:34 PM
440roadrunner 440roadrunner is offline
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You may have disturbed the wiring and "shown up" a bad connection. This could be at the regulator, or the bulkhead connector, OR>........................

what ignition did you PREVIOUSLY have, and HOW DID you wire the new one?

And, as John, the very first thing we need is the year/ make / model of your car, and if it's before '70, whether it's got the original style or been converted to the 70/ later style regulator
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  #6  
Old 06-30-2012, 08:40 PM
cudabob496 cudabob496 is offline
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Crazy, I took out the new digital MSD 6AL box, and put my old 6AL back in, and the problem went away. The new MSD box is going back to MSD, along with the adjustable timing unit. Hope MSD does not have a serious quality control problem.
PS '72 Cuda, with a stroked 440.
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  #7  
Old 07-02-2012, 02:03 PM
70Ted 70Ted is offline
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an ignition box cant cause this problem
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  #8  
Old 07-02-2012, 09:15 PM
cudabob496 cudabob496 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 70Ted View Post
an ignition box cant cause this problem
thats what MSD said, and I agreed initially, but why did it go away when
I replaced the digital box with the old analog box. Could be the rev limiter
circuitry, because when I initially ran with the digital box, I accidently set the rev limiter at 2600, not 6200 (box was upside-down under dash). I drove it and it started misfiring at 2600, so I came back and reset to 6200 rpm, then the problem occured.

just got a new digital 6AL box in the mail. will hook up in the next 24 hours.
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  #9  
Old 07-02-2012, 10:08 PM
440roadrunner 440roadrunner is offline
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I already suggested a cause, and you still did not answer my question

HOW do you have this wired, exactly?

That is, what wire on the MSD goes to what?
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  #10  
Old 07-02-2012, 10:38 PM
cudabob496 cudabob496 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 440roadrunner View Post
I already suggested a cause, and you still did not answer my question

HOW do you have this wired, exactly?

That is, what wire on the MSD goes to what?
I wired it the same way the old one was wired, and per the instructions.
I then put the old one back in, wired the same way. The exact instructions are on the MSD and Summit websites. The instructions show which wire goes where. After explaining everything to MSD, they said mail it back.
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  #11  
Old 07-03-2012, 01:23 AM
440roadrunner 440roadrunner is offline
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OK, the reason I asked is I though maybe you had wrongly connected the main feed (big red?) on the MSD to the old original "ignition run" (ign 1) which is becoming a problem on these cars so far as voltage drop.

But if properly hooked up as per MSD, this actually REDUCES drop on the blue, as that wire now just becomes a trigger wire for the MSD

Voltage drop on the dark blue ignition feed WILL cause overcharging, because the regulator "senses" off that feed. If there's a voltage drop, the regulator "thinks" the system voltage is low, and ramps up the voltage to compensate.

One thing you might do is clip a meter to your old ignition feed and measure it with key on/ engine off and compare to battery voltage. Also measure it with system running and charging and compare to battery voltage.

If that ignition feed is LOW (below battery) with engine OFF, and runs at 14 with system charging (and battery showing ABOVE 14) then you have a voltage drop in that circuit.

The bulkhead connector itself is your no1 suspect, and I'm thinking that you DISTURBED one of the terminals and changed whether the connector is/ is not making good contact in there

Read this for more info on the how and why of this type problem

http://www.madelectrical.com/electri...p-gauges.shtml
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  #12  
Old 07-03-2012, 01:50 AM
cudabob496 cudabob496 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 440roadrunner View Post
OK, the reason I asked is I though maybe you had wrongly connected the main feed (big red?) on the MSD to the old original "ignition run" (ign 1) which is becoming a problem on these cars so far as voltage drop.

But if properly hooked up as per MSD, this actually REDUCES drop on the blue, as that wire now just becomes a trigger wire for the MSD

Voltage drop on the dark blue ignition feed WILL cause overcharging, because the regulator "senses" off that feed. If there's a voltage drop, the regulator "thinks" the system voltage is low, and ramps up the voltage to compensate.

One thing you might do is clip a meter to your old ignition feed and measure it with key on/ engine off and compare to battery voltage. Also measure it with system running and charging and compare to battery voltage.

If that ignition feed is LOW (below battery) with engine OFF, and runs at 14 with system charging (and battery showing ABOVE 14) then you have a voltage drop in that circuit.

The bulkhead connector itself is your no1 suspect, and I'm thinking that you DISTURBED one of the terminals and changed whether the connector is/ is not making good contact in there

Read this for more info on the how and why of this type problem

http://www.madelectrical.com/electri...p-gauges.shtml
Thanks. I've already done the amp gauge bulkhead connector mod (wire from alternator output goes to 12V starter relay post). Also, the power feed to the MSD comes off the 12V post on the starter relay. I also have a voltage gauge monitoring that voltage supply. I'm sure there could be something not connected correctly, or loose, though I've been over and over it, and the old MSD, which uses the same wiring, has worked fine, as I drove the car this weekend (modified 350z didn't know what hit him!)(at least he had cool ground effects). I will be under the dash for the next day, and will report back how it runs with the replacement 6AL I just got today.
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  #13  
Old 07-03-2012, 11:44 PM
cudabob496 cudabob496 is offline
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Dang, put in new MSD box, and amps are still fluctuating and voltage going above 15 volts. But won't do it with the old MSD box. MSD said power MSD box directly from battery, so I did, but that didn't help. MSD felt the wire from the alternator to the 12v post on the starter relay (bulkhead bypass mod) may be doing something. I think next step is to check out the alternator, though again, there is no problem with the old analog MSD box. I'll take in the alternator tomorrow to get checked out.
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  #14  
Old 07-04-2012, 03:19 PM
cudabob496 cudabob496 is offline
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Thats it! I quit! Alternator checked out fine. As far as I'm concerned the digital 6AL box has issues!! Then new one they sent me already came with a warning that it could mess with EFI systems. I'm putting my old 6AL box back in and goin drivin!!
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  #15  
Old 07-04-2012, 03:37 PM
John Kunkel John Kunkel is offline
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When I wire an MSD I always run the large red power wire directly to the battery cable lug on the starter and the large black ground wire directly to the negative battery cable.
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  #16  
Old 07-04-2012, 05:35 PM
cudabob496 cudabob496 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kunkel View Post
When I wire an MSD I always run the large red power wire directly to the battery cable lug on the starter and the large black ground wire directly to the negative battery cable.
Yep, have done all that. After two weeks of troubleshooting, and two digital boxes, and on the phone with MSD about 6 times, something is wrong. There must be some kinda cyclical currents, feedback, or electrical interference with one of the digital box components. Nutty thing, is I will put the old 6AL back in today, and things will run fine (I hope).

I hope MSD monitors these chat sites.
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  #17  
Old 07-04-2012, 11:35 PM
cudabob496 cudabob496 is offline
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OK, old 6AL box back in, and engine runs perfect!!! Enough of this
baloney!!! I ain't gonna miss summer!!!
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  #18  
Old 07-05-2012, 02:42 PM
John Kunkel John Kunkel is offline
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Like 440roadrunner suggested, a high current draw at the blue IGN1 wire will make the regulator think there's low voltage and it will send the alternator into max charge mode. (alternator output could also be an issue with an old 37-amp alternator)

Easy enough to check, temporarily run the small red MSD wire directly from the battery and see how the system reacts. If that fixes the problem check the bulkhead connector and if worse comes to worst you might try turning the MSD box on (small red wire) through a relay with a direct battery source. IOW, energize the relay with the IGN1 circuit but supply the MSD power directly from the battery.
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  #19  
Old 07-06-2012, 12:49 AM
cudabob496 cudabob496 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kunkel View Post
Like 440roadrunner suggested, a high current draw at the blue IGN1 wire will make the regulator think there's low voltage and it will send the alternator into max charge mode. (alternator output could also be an issue with an old 37-amp alternator)

Easy enough to check, temporarily run the small red MSD wire directly from the battery and see how the system reacts. If that fixes the problem check the bulkhead connector and if worse comes to worst you might try turning the MSD box on (small red wire) through a relay with a direct battery source. IOW, energize the relay with the IGN1 circuit but supply the MSD power directly from the battery.
Thanks, have tried powering the large and small red wires from the battery, which MSD said would be ok, and nothing changed, new box still screwy. Got a new 65 amp Mopar alternator.

But the same wiring, hooked to the old MSD box, causes everything to be fine.

I do bypass most the bulkhead connector current by directly wiring the alternator output to the 12v starter relay post. I have an amp gauge inbetween the two.

We have to figure out why the old analog box works, but the new digital causes volts to go above 15, and current to fluctuate. A spark plug wire does pass near the alternator output wires, and the digital box does put out more voltage/current I'm told?

This is the second digital box I have hooked up in the last two weeks, and they both do the same thing.
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  #20  
Old 07-06-2012, 02:41 AM
cudabob496 cudabob496 is offline
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More bad news. When I had the adjustable timing control unit hooked up to the new digital box, the engine would crank, but not fire up. I sent the adjustable timing unit to MSD, and just got it back, and they say it tested fine! Therefore, more proof the digital box is messed up! Crazy!
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  #21  
Old 07-06-2012, 02:16 PM
440roadrunner 440roadrunner is offline
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Your are not using solid core plug wires are you? Where is the coil and MSD mounted, and where is the wiring dressed between the two?

At this point here's what I would do as a TEST. Bear in mind you will have to unhook this stuff when done testing.

Get yourself a pigtail (connector) to fit your regulator. Find somewhere as close as possible to TEMPorarily remount the regulator (you only need one bolt) near the alternator and ON the engine, not the body. Again this is only for a test, but you do want a solid ground. If you cannot find a solid mounting place, just make up a short pigtail ground wire as short as possible, 3" or so long with a ring on each end. Run a bolt through the volt. regulator mount and just let it "lay" on the engine, maybe a carb flange bolt on the other end, or a valve cover bolt.

Unhook the original field terminal wires from the alternator

Now get some terminals and with the battery unhooked, make up the following:

Crimp a 1/4" ring terminal to two wires. Run one to a push-on spade terminal and hook that to one field termial

Hook the second wire to the blue wire in the regulator connector

Last, run the green wire from the regulator connector to the remaining field connector.

Try to keep this stuff dressed away from the distributor and plug wires.

Now see if your digital box / regulator works.

Simplified diagram:

In the diagram, essentially, the wire going to the top of the ballast will be jumpered directly to the alternator BATT terminal

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  #22  
Old 07-06-2012, 09:26 PM
aarracer aarracer is offline
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Pat Collins
MSD®Ignition Upgrade,Repair,Technical Support: 704-995-4286
techwest@techwestracing.com www.techwestracing.com
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  #23  
Old 07-07-2012, 04:01 AM
cudabob496 cudabob496 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 440roadrunner View Post
Your are not using solid core plug wires are you? Where is the coil and MSD mounted, and where is the wiring dressed between the two?

At this point here's what I would do as a TEST. Bear in mind you will have to unhook this stuff when done testing.

Get yourself a pigtail (connector) to fit your regulator. Find somewhere as close as possible to TEMPorarily remount the regulator (you only need one bolt) near the alternator and ON the engine, not the body. Again this is only for a test, but you do want a solid ground. If you cannot find a solid mounting place, just make up a short pigtail ground wire as short as possible, 3" or so long with a ring on each end. Run a bolt through the volt. regulator mount and just let it "lay" on the engine, maybe a carb flange bolt on the other end, or a valve cover bolt.

Unhook the original field terminal wires from the alternator

Now get some terminals and with the battery unhooked, make up the following:

Crimp a 1/4" ring terminal to two wires. Run one to a push-on spade terminal and hook that to one field termial

Hook the second wire to the blue wire in the regulator connector

Last, run the green wire from the regulator connector to the remaining field connector.

Try to keep this stuff dressed away from the distributor and plug wires.

Now see if your digital box / regulator works.

Simplified diagram:

In the diagram, essentially, the wire going to the top of the ballast will be jumpered directly to the alternator BATT terminal

Hopes its not a problem, but I no longer have the ballast resistor installed. MSD said it wasn't necessary.

Thanks! I will keep your suggestions. After two weeks, I'm so burned out, I just re-installed the old box, and am mailing the new box back to Summit. I don't want to crawl under the dash and put the new box in for a third time. I will attack this again sometime in the future. There's high school kids to race out there, and the days are sunny!!!

Wonder if the wire from the alternator to the 12v post on the starter relay, is coming too close to the 6AL power leads. Also, the output current from the alternator fluctuates, perhaps at the same time the spark plug wire, that passes by the alternator, fires. But again, WHY DOES THE OLD 6AL BOX WORK WITH THE SAME WIRING PATTERN AS THE NEW BOX, WHICH DOES NOT WORK!
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  #24  
Old 07-07-2012, 09:17 AM
Mroldfart2u Mroldfart2u is offline
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Digital v Analog ... I kind of suspect some kind of emf interferance from SOMETHING, what I do not know.... The question 440 asked was a very valid pointed question about the plug wires, and never addreesed... You have your box mounted under the dash which for changing makes it a pain i understand, but I think I would have tried it loosely mounted under hood with shorter leads before giving up... M2C
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Old 07-07-2012, 09:37 AM
cudabob496 cudabob496 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mroldfart2u View Post
Digital v Analog ... I kind of suspect some kind of emf interferance from SOMETHING, what I do not know.... The question 440 asked was a very valid pointed question about the plug wires, and never addreesed... You have your box mounted under the dash which for changing makes it a pain i understand, but I think I would have tried it loosely mounted under hood with shorter leads before giving up... M2C
I agree. Right now all wires are fairly close together on the passenger side of carb. I'll try spreading them out next time I tackle this. Was hoping not to be a research test facility this summer for the new digital MSD box.
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  #26  
Old 07-07-2012, 09:46 AM
Mroldfart2u Mroldfart2u is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cudabob496 View Post
I agree. Right now all wires are fairly close together on the passenger side of carb. I'll try spreading them out next time I tackle this. Was hoping not to be a research test facility this summer for the new digital MSD box.

Yeah no lie, and the bad thing about it the mfg keeps saying the box is "Ok".. on the bench it MAY be but in use it isnt... Guess they dont want to try and figure it out on their own to try and make a customer happy...
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  #27  
Old 07-07-2012, 05:23 PM
440roadrunner 440roadrunner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cudabob496 View Post
I don't want to crawl under the dash and put the new box in for a third time. .................................

Wonder if the wire from the alternator to the 12v post on the starter relay, is coming too close to the 6AL power leads. Also, the output current from the alternator fluctuates, perhaps at the same time the spark plug wire, that passes by the alternator, fires. But again, WHY DOES THE OLD 6AL BOX WORK WITH THE SAME WIRING PATTERN AS THE NEW BOX, WHICH DOES NOT WORK!

Somehow I did not realize the box was UNDER THE DASH

This means REALLY long leads to the distributor pickup (sensitive leads) as well as long leads to the coil (HIGH POWERED PULSES)



I would do the same thing with the box as I suggested to the VR, that is, temporarily mount the box under the hood as close to the coil and distributor as possible.

Your problem is UNlikely the main power leads to the MSD, it is MORE likely the coil wiring. With those long leads, and the trouble your are having, I'm surprised you are not having problems with misfiring and high speed miss caused by interferance FROM the coil pulse getting INTO the delicate distributor pickup
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  #28  
Old 07-07-2012, 07:00 PM
cudabob496 cudabob496 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 440roadrunner View Post
Somehow I did not realize the box was UNDER THE DASH

This means REALLY long leads to the distributor pickup (sensitive leads) as well as long leads to the coil (HIGH POWERED PULSES)



I would do the same thing with the box as I suggested to the VR, that is, temporarily mount the box under the hood as close to the coil and distributor as possible.

Your problem is UNlikely the main power leads to the MSD, it is MORE likely the coil wiring. With those long leads, and the trouble your are having, I'm surprised you are not having problems with misfiring and high speed miss caused by interferance FROM the coil pulse getting INTO the delicate distributor pickup
Nope, with the old box, revs strong up and past 6000 rpm. Never a miss.
When I get motivated again, I'll put in the new box, and make sure
no wires are running close and parallel to each other. Also, I'll have the wires
enter the fire wall at different locations. I'll try to make one adjustment at a time to
identify where the problem is.

The leads to the coil and distributor are stock length and come attached to the MSD box and MSD distributor. From under the dash, directly against the firewall, the leads don't travel more than 2 or 3 feet.

Suprisingly, MSD techs I have talked to, have never heard of these symptoms before, or at least, they are not
allowed to say they have heard of them. It may be like my Civic, which has a tendency for the block to crack.
I talked to all the dealers, and they were not allowed to say the word "crack". Then 6 months later, they announce
and extended warranty for all Civics whose blocks are "leaking"!! (Due to cracks!!!)
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Old 07-12-2012, 06:36 PM
cudabob496 cudabob496 is offline
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Crap, reinstalled new box, re-routed alternator output wire away from all other wires it was formally rounted with (including all MSD wires). No change, amps on alternator wire fluctuate by 20, and voltage climbs above 15 volts quickly. Shut'er down! Come on MSD, tell me whats going on!!?? Does not do this with old MSD 6AL box. Have replaced voltage regulator, coil, and alternator tested good! We can put a man on the moon in 1969, but can't figure this out!!???
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Old 07-12-2012, 07:24 PM
cudabob496 cudabob496 is offline
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Now MSD says my voltage/amp guages maybe going snakey, so I gotta investigate that. Will hook up voltmeter directly to battery when car running, and compare to gauge in car.
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