What Caused This Sludge?

[Shatto]

https://plus.google.com/photos/11813...CICMoo6e8Z_fbg

The photos of the sludge are of a Kia V-6. Failed around 60,000 miles.
Properly maintained, etc. by a mechanic.
Judging from the super cleaned piston, a gasket failure which caused the problem.
But what caused the gunking?

[nhdriver]

Several Chrysler engines are plagued by this problem 2.7, 3.7 & 4.7 All from the Mercedes era. The culprit was determined to be excessive heat & a crankcase ventilation problem that breaks down the additive package in the oil which causes a build up of hydrocarbons in the oil resulting in a sludge build up. This was not a Chrysler only problem other brands affected were Toyota, Volkswagen & apparently Kia/Hyundai too.

[JVMopar]

The biggest problem with build ups like that is extended oil change intervals. You have to adjust the intervals to your driving. I've been seeing alot of problems with variable valve timing engines because of sludge build up. Not to mention timing chain strech in GM's stupid 3.6L. It's just so much easier to change the oil every 3,000 miles.

[Shatto]

You a mechanic?

[Dick]

Originally Posted by JVMopar

The biggest problem with build ups like that is extended oil change intervals. You have to adjust the intervals to your driving. I've been seeing alot of problems with variable valve timing engines because of sludge build up. Not to mention timing chain strech in GM's stupid 3.6L. It's just so much easier to change the oil every 3,000 miles.

What about a good synthetic oil, like Amsoil?

[JVMopar]

Yes, I'm a mechanic at the local GM dealer. I hate GM but lack of job oppertunities in the area, so what cha gonna do.

Honestly I don't think synthetic or not has much to do with it. I've put quite a few timing chain sets into engines that specified synthetic oil. But than again it wasn't till they offered that same engine in vehicles that didn't spec. synthetic oil that we had a huge rush of timing chains. The other mechanics I've talked with at training say even if they personally run synthetic they still change oil at 3,000 miles.

[LD]

Originally Posted by Shatto

The photos of the sludge are of a Kia V-6. Failed around 60,000 miles.
Properly maintained, etc. by a mechanic.
Judging from the super cleaned piston, a gasket failure which caused the problem.
But what caused the gunking?

You say properly maintained but you don't say how it was driven (short or long trips, low speed in town or high speed highway driving). IMO the hardest thing on a motor is short trips where the motor never fully reaches running temperatures. I have seen the inside of motors with far less miles in much worse shape than this that were driven less than 2 miles one way to work and back daily.

As JVMopar said you have to adjust your oil change/service intervals to your type of driving. I am the proud owner of a 99 Intrepid with over 170K miles and not a drop of sludge. If you care to see the pics of the inside search the forums for 169,939.

Just my $.02 worth.

[Dick]

If the oil on the dipstick still looks clean (synthetic), could sludge still be forming? I try to change my Ram's oil about every 5,000 miles. My dealer says I am wasting my money and could go to 7,500 miles before a change, which is similar to Amsoil's recommendation.

[John Kunkel]

The milky appearance in a couple of the photos makes me think "moisture intrusion"...like a coolant leak.

[LD]

Originally Posted by John Kunkel

The milky appearance in a couple of the photos makes me think "moisture intrusion"...like a coolant leak.

The only milky color I see in the photos are of some flavor of ice cream. The first one even has a spoon in the image.

[70Ted]

it a cheap car, its done at 65 k miles

[chirorod]

The clean pistons are a dead giveaway. This is a blown head gasket. The steam in the combustion chambers cleaned the pistons. The sludge is a by-product of the oil being junked up with coolant (look at the milk shake appearance of the oil in several places) and being directly exposed to the high combustion temperatures. I would guess it was driven a fair number of miles with the gasket problem. With an engine running as bad as this one was, the oil sludges pretty fast. This was not an oil change interval problem.
Of course, KIA is just the South Korean way of spelling FIAT or YUGO (which should have been YU DONT GO).

[LD]

Sorry, I don't see any milky substance except in the pictures at the top of the album which are not of the motor. The lighter color in the pics of the sludge I attribute to camera flash and not coolant.
I'm not familiar whether it has a dry or wet intake manifold but I only see one super cleaned piston, 3 different shots but the carbon on the piston is the same in all 3. If it were is a wet manifold then gasket leak let coolant into the intake runner. How awesome would it be for the remaining carbon to be identically placed in 3 separate cylinders.
In any case being a dispose-a-car, its time for a new one.

[340_GTS]

7th thru 9th pictures look like an engine where nobody ever changed the oil.

Pictures 2-4 are someone's gunked-up coffee, or maybe an ice cream sundae. There is even a fancy looking silver spoon in one of those pictures.

[chirorod]

The gunked-up coffee is a mix of water and oil, which is damning evidence of a blown head gasket, cracked head or block, etc. What's fun is when you do one of these and then they have the extra expense of replacing the exhaust system because it's all plugged up.

[LD]

sitting back and laughing his *ss off. Has anyone even expanded pic #2? His caption says it is "Heart in Ice Cream". Somehow that tells me that pics 3 and 4 are of the ice cream as well.

[bulldog426]

i've always heard slick 50 or quaker state oil wil gum up an engine

[chirorod]

I worked at a Volvo dealership a long time ago. They used only Quaker State, and the Volvos ran 300K and a lot more. Quaker State is fine.
One place they're seeing problems now is on the direct injection motors. The valves aren't getting cleaned. No gas getting to them.

[wagnerjw]

Amsoil is just overpriced Mobil 1. They buy all their synthetic base stock from Mobil, put some phony additives in it and jack the price. Just buy Mobil 1 and save yourself some money. Like everyone else has said. Sludge is from bad oil change intervals And the white milky stuff can just be from condensation not burning off. I have it all th time in my Ram.

[Shatto]

Originally Posted by wagnerjw

Amsoil is just overpriced Mobil 1. They buy all their synthetic base stock from Mobil, put some phony additives in it and jack the price. Just buy Mobil 1 and save yourself some money.

Show me the...proof.

[wagnerjw]

Originally Posted by Shatto

Show me the...proof.

I work for Exxon Mobil. It's just kind of a trade secret. Amsoil, Lucas and Royal Purple don't have refineries and blending facilities, they buy their base stocks from major oil companies.

[Shatto]

Originally Posted by wagnerjw

I work for Exxon Mobil. It's just kind of a trade secret. Amsoil, Lucas and Royal Purple don't have refineries and blending facilities, they buy their base stocks from major oil companies.

This is so.
Standard Oil invented synthetic oil. So what. It cost so much nobody but a few with radical off-beat needs would use it.
I had National Geographic Magazines with blue pictures of Ford Tri-Motors with canvass shrouds over the engines and smudge pots used to keep their oil from freezing solid
many years after the invention of synthetic oil, during Admiral Byrd's Polar Expeditions. Maybe they hadn't heard about synthetic oil. Perhaps the government wouldn't allow it's use in aeroplanes.

However, as your grandma said, "the proof is in the pudding" and in the case of motor oils, every now and then Amsoil compares their oils against the competition:
http://www.amsoil.com/performancetests.aspx
Click on the very top report: A Study of SAE 5W-30 Synthetic Motor Oils (G3115) (421k PDF) and download the report.

[JVMopar]

I don't trust manufactures doing comparisons. A purely independent non biased comparison would be much better.

[Dr. Righteous]

Originally Posted by nhdriver

Several Chrysler engines are plagued by this problem 2.7, 3.7 & 4.7 All from the Mercedes era. The culprit was determined to be excessive heat & a crankcase ventilation problem that breaks down the additive package in the oil which causes a build up of hydrocarbons in the oil resulting in a sludge build up. This was not a Chrysler only problem other brands affected were Toyota, Volkswagen & apparently Kia/Hyundai too.

You nailed it.
I purchased a '02 Sebring with a 2.7L for my wife for $500 last year. The car was beautiful but the engine was knocking.
I pulled the pan and examined everything. Not a spec of sludge. None. The seller produced all the maint records it shows they stuck to Mobil 1 which didn't buy them much. I did a lot of research on the 2.7L and found that rod bearings just "giving up" was a common issue.
But also what I found was major complaints about sludge problems.

What I came to discover was interesting.
The 2.7L= roughly 165 cu in in displacement. Yet this little engine produces 200hp naturally aspirated. This is a triumph in efficiency. This engine is all aluminum and the fact it it producing that much power for such a small engine there is one unavoidable factor. HEAT. These small high output engines will COOK mineral oils and they will not even last the standard 3000 miles oil change period. Best bet; stick to synthetic.
But why did this 2.7L fail? High output engines are very sensitive to fuel quality. What you have at the gas pump is 10% ethanol fuel. The fact is this is a piss poor fuel. You get more knocking with ethanol blends than 100% gasoline and I am willing to bet money this knocking is what pounded the main bearings.
Well I put a crank kit in the Sebring and made a dang nice running little car out of it. But my wife was accustom to the 04 Durango with the Hungry, Hungry Hemi and decided she didn't like driving the little car. I work from home so I didn't need it.
I had about $1500 in it after the repairs and a set of tires.
But it was such a clean car I got $2800 for when I sold it so; Meh. No complaints.

[Dr. Righteous]

Originally Posted by Dick

If the oil on the dipstick still looks clean (synthetic), could sludge still be forming? I try to change my Ram's oil about every 5,000 miles. My dealer says I am wasting my money and could go to 7,500 miles before a change, which is similar to Amsoil's recommendation.

I go 6000 miles on Mobil 1 between changes. The first 5.7L engine was clean enough on the inside to eat off of. But that didn't prevent a rod from giving up.
Currently "Heavy D" has 176K miles on it's 2nd engine and thankfully this one has been fine with the same attention to maintenance.

[Shatto]

Originally Posted by Dick

If the oil on the dipstick still looks clean (synthetic), could sludge still be forming? I try to change my Ram's oil about every 5,000 miles. My dealer says I am wasting my money and could go to 7,500 miles before a change, which is similar to Amsoil's recommendation.

Just for kicks, here's an engine at the opposite end of the spectrum.

http://www.allpar.com/cars/stories/shatto.php