Viper Suspension On A 70 Challenger?

[70Chall383]

Alright... well iv been seeing all these first generation Camaros with Corvette suspension and the like. So I was thinking. Could you take viper, Prowler, 300M or the like and bolt the modern running gear on to say a 1970 Challenger? any thoughts? My dad is getting a 1953 Studabaker Starlight with '88 corvette suspension and brakes all the way . Also the EFI 350 out of the vette. Im alittle worried my 70 challenger 383-magnum is going to have a hard time keeping up! =) Just wondering if anyone has ever tried the modern running gear on a old mopar.
-Mike

[ChristianCuda]

I am working on it.
Specifically an adjustable coil over front suspesion or front strut suspesion. But something that could be bolted on.

I will let you know how everything works out.

Christian

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68 'Cuda 383 Working on adding EFI
69 'Cuda Race Parts Car
76 Duster 273 recent transplant
95 Neon 2.0 SOHC best of 16.96
84 Dodge Ram D50 transplanting 360

[Elwenil]

In the July 1998 issue of Mopar Muscle there was an article on a '64 Barracuda with a twin turbo 360 Commando and 'Vette rear suspension. This looked like a kewl set up, and I often wondered about a wrecked Viper and my Charger coming together at some point in the future. You would have to have a good grasp of suspension dynamics and be good at fabricating your own frame and brackets. Big job, but kewl nevertheless.

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~Elwenil~ ~.\|/.~
Elwenil.cjb.net
DodgeChargerSE@aol.com
72 Charger SE

[moparscott]

Have you been following the articles in Mopar Action magazine about their '69 Valiant with stock style suspension blowing away Vettes etc? With a sway bar front and back and some beefier torsion bars ($119 a pair through Koller Dodge), good shocks (I used KYB), polyurethane bushings front and back and some decent 50 series tires you will have a car that handles extremely well. I did this to a '75 Duster and I could take corners faster than stock Vettes, Camaros and Mustangs. But if you have lots of money to burn...

[70Chall383]

Stock style suspension blowing away vettes!? ill have to look into that. Still independent rear suspension would be cooler =) but a pain in the butt. Really i just want to keep up with my dads Starlight.
-Mike

[Elwenil]

If you are curious abou the stock suspension mods, check out the link to my website below. Go to the page on my 72 Charger SE that I modified for some future road racing. I'm doing a lot of experimenting with different things and trying some old NASCAR and Trans-Am racing tricks. Right now I can take the Vettes, mainly because they spent so much money on it, that they are scared to see what it will really do. The few Vettes that I have had serious run ins with put up a good fight, but I think their lighter weight makes them harder to drive for the average driver. New Camaros and Mustangs are no competition at all. With the mods I have done my Charger holds a surprisingly tight turn, is very predictable, and rides like it's on rails even at 140 MPH. I really think the stock suspension will surprise you with what you can do with it. Having the weight of a big block on the front will make understeer a problem, but much larger torsion bars and Koni adjustable shocks would help out a lot. This spring I want to go to dual rear sway bars and experiment maybe with some fiberglass or mono-leaf springs. When the warmer weather comes I'm going to redo the Charger section of my site with detailed pics of the mods that worked so others can give this option a try. Honestly, dollar for dollar, I've had way more fun making my car handle and surprise the owners of new sports cars than I ever did drag racing. The suspension mods are cheap, and most of the stuff you modify needs to be replaced on the average 100,000 mile car anyway. Why not update it? Most of the stuff is at lease stock appearing with the exception of the rear spring and sway bar mods. I have less in my suspension than I do in my crate engine. I recommend this route for anyone wanting to max out their Mopars handling potential or maybe are just bored with the drag racing scene. Nothing else like it, although the independent suspension does look interesting for a future project. Hmmmm...

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~Elwenil~ ~.\|/.~
Elwenil.cjb.net
DodgeChargerSE@aol.com
72 Charger SE

[turbododge]

Elwenil---

I checked out your website. Very similar mods to what I have done to my 70 Challenger. It handles very well, but I sure wouldn't rate it as good as a new Vette. I also had the front end rearranged on the frame rack to be able to get 3% positive caster for directional stability and added 12" discs. Looking at your pictures, it looks like you have standard radial TA's on the Charger, hope you don't try to run 140 very often on them, they are not speed rated. Keep the faith.

[Elwenil]

Yeah they are just standard Radial T/A's for now. They are speed rated at S, which is up to 112 MPH, and is pretty much standard for radials. The rating is for continuous use, and I normally don't run at 140 for more than a minute or two. Cruising speed is around 120 MPH, and while that's over the rating, I haven't had any belt shifting, or compound problems as of yet. They normally don't last long enough to break down. The heavy body of the Charger tends to round out the tread rather quickly with my driving style. The 14" and 15" Radial T/A's are only temporary until I can swap on some 16" and 17" rims. I've been trying to get BBS to make me a set of rims with a deep dish for rear wheel drive but I think we are running into tooling problems. With the new rims I'll go up to a Comp T/A ZR4, or maybe the new g-Force T/A with the Y speed rating for up to 186 MPH. Hard to tell what those will run in a 315/35R17.

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~Elwenil~ ~.\|/.~
Elwenil.cjb.net
DodgeChargerSE@aol.com
72 Charger SE

[70Chall383]

Turbododge, can you give me some more information on the mods to your Challenger? Also is it a small or big block.
Thanks
-Mike

[turbododge]

The Challenger is a twin turbo, fuel injected, 340, with a 5 speed manual transmission. Suspension mods are all of the standards (urethane bushings, aftermarket sways front and rear, KYB shocks, etc.). Torsion bars are 3 times stock rate and the rear springs have one extra 1/4 leaf. The pinion snubber runs 3/8 off of the tunnel (8 3/4). The body has weld in frame connectors and a crossbrace added to the engine compartment. Brakes are JFZ 12X 1 1/4 four piston discs in front with 11" drums in back with an adjustable proportioning valve. It is set up to run nose down about 1/2 to 1 degree and is less than 1/2" off the front snubbers. The rear spoiler is a standard TA lip type and the front is a copy of the old TransAm racing spoiler. Wheels are 16X8 front and 17X8 rear with 245-50-16 and 255-50-17 Comp TA Z rated tires. The front suspension has been "pulled" to allow 3 degrees of positive caster. It currently runs just about 0 caster, but I may do another change (tubular A arms) to get to -1/4. The steering is an older Mopar Performance 20 to 1 manual box, as I don't have room for power steering, and the original stuff had so many handling problems.

[70Chall383]

Awsome! any pictures of it on the internet?

[turbododge]

70chall383---No pictures on the web, but I can E-mail some if you let me know your address.

[70Chall383]

you can get me at g4tek@aol.com although it will be changing soon bue to changing of my isp.
Thanks
Mike

[Elwenil]

Anyone see the '70 Challenger in the April 2000 issue of Mopar Muscle? Something is not right with that picture. A built 520 cube Hemi, a non-overdrive 5 speed, and 2.76 gears and all he can get out of it is 140?!? I can reach 140 MPH in my 72 Charger with my 300 HP, 360 Magnum crate engine, TCI 727, and 2.76 gears. That is of course by my stock (but calibrated) speedo, but this Challenger should blow me away! Is the new owner of this Challenger a bit timid about it, or is the Charger just a better body style for this type of project? I stayed with the Charger body because of the wind tunnel testing that went into the '71-'74 B bodies for NASCAR racing. I still think that even the crappy aerodynamics of the Challenger shouldn't keep it under 140 MPH when I can get it with a mild small block. Perhaps the Hemi is not worth the weight gain in an E body? I went with a small block for the weight savings on the front end, and I know it out handles a big block car in a turn. What do you think guys? Any opinions?

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~Elwenil~ ~.\|/.~
Elwenil.cjb.net
DodgeChargerSE@aol.com
72 Charger SE

[This message has been edited by Elwenil (edited February 24, 2000).]

[Freddie]

Turbododge;

What kind of 5 speed do you use? and did any work needed to be done to the trans tunnel?? seems like you have the same sort of setup as me (no turbo here though) would be nice to know if the challenger can handle 200mph on st street!

[turbododge]

Elwenil:: I looked up the issue of Mopar Muscle you talked about. I agree that the Challenger should be capable of much more than 140, and it probably is. The new owner said "its been to about 140", but didn't really say if it was all done by then. With the listed tires and gears, he would not even be to 5000 rpm at 140, and he says he has over 600 lb/ft to 6000 rpm. Depending on how high in rpm he would be willing to go, he should be able to get at least 180 to 200 mph. The extra weight of the hemi should not have any real effect on top speed on a level road, just how long it takes to get there. If you take a good look at the car, however, I doubt that you would want to be in it at over 140. The front spoiler is quite small (TA eyebrows) and he is not sitting "nose down" at all. The pipes hanging in the under body area will disrupt airflow and impede downforce and add resistance. In its present state, I think it would get to be a handful at very high speeds. Reading the text, it appears that this car was built quite some time ago. JFZ brakes was bought out over 7 years ago and is now Sierra, and Doug Nash transmissions have been Richmond for at least that long. The Challenger may have had a much better stance when first built. My Challenger has settled almost 1 inch in the rear since it was built 12 years ago. I have been lowering the front to keep my nose down, but am very close to pulling the rears and having them arched back to where they were. An inch higher in the rear would definitely help the hemi stay on the road. He also has new wheels and tires on the Challenger. It may be that originally there was a larger front to rear diameter difference, which could also help.