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  #1  
Old 03-01-2000, 11:39 PM
Mike 70RT/SE Mike 70RT/SE is offline
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Question

Hi all. First post ever on this site... I searched through a bunch of posts on 440s, but I was looking for some more custom-tailored information.

What I've got:
70 Charger RT/SE (an unholly 4200 lbs or so)
440 Magnum, mild port, hardened seats stock valve sizes.
625 Carter AFB on stock manifold
An emissions cam (no idea where it came from)
Mopar electronic ignition
3.55 Posi
Stock stall, 727
15'' wheels, 265 60 series tires

what I want:
Mid to high thirteens without stripping the car, interior, moving battery, fuel cell etc. Prefer not to buy slicks, but... gotta beat my buddy's GTO (13.7 on radials).

What I plan on doing is putting in a new cam, manifold, sticking with the stock heads and stock dual exhaust and exhaust manifolds. It's also important to me to not change the torque converter, as this is a car that is daily driven in the summer.

Any advice? Is this possible? Feel free to tell me how good the crack is that I'm smoking, if that is the case.

Thanks,

Mike
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  #2  
Old 03-01-2000, 11:49 PM
Mike 70RT/SE Mike 70RT/SE is offline
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Bit more info. It's a real magnum 440, verified 9.5 compression, forged crank, rods, pistons. The only incorrect parts are carb and cam...

Thanks in advance for any help.

--Mike
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  #3  
Old 03-02-2000, 12:06 AM
ChristianCuda ChristianCuda is offline
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Mike one thing o look at is the stock heads. You should replace those valve springs as they are usually worn out by 30 years of running. Second as I always recommend get the Stock iron head template package from Mopar Performance and Template port your heads and get a good three angle valve job on them. Then the .480" lift MP cam and 750 Holley DP. This out to get you close. Also go buy a tractor trailer weigh station and get your car weighed I dont think it will be 4200 lbs.
On the suspension clamp the front half of your springs and remove the clamps from the back half.
On the convertor you can get a 3000 stall convertor that will not affect your street driving. The stall is only flash which means that it will only stall at 3000
1)if there is enough torque in the engine and
2)if there is a force holding the driveline. Higher stalls tend to slip more.

Christian



------------------
68 'Cuda 383 Working on adding EFI
69 'Cuda Race Parts Car
76 Duster 273 recent transplant
95 Neon 2.0 SOHC best of 16.96
84 Dodge Ram D50 transplanting 360
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  #4  
Old 03-02-2000, 04:27 AM
Mike 70RT/SE Mike 70RT/SE is offline
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ChristianCuda, thanks for your reply. What's your opinion on the Edelbrock performer RPM package (cam, manifold, carb)? Do you think it would be a better bet (cam is more aggressive). I'll investigate torque converters.

Thanks again.

(Anyone else have an opinion)?

--Mike

------------------
70 Charger RT/SE
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  #5  
Old 03-02-2000, 04:38 AM
hemi-1 hemi-1 is offline
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I agree with ChristianCuda--put a convertor in that thing. In fact, that would be the first thing I would do. 440's came with low stall 12 inch convertors, while 383's and hemi's had 11 inch high-stalls and both were certainly capable of being driven on the street. A decent convertor alone can easily be worth half a second or more in the quarter, and is especially important if you want to run a hotter cam.

Assuming you have at least 9:1 actual compression ratio, with a good convertor, .480 lift cam, Performer RPM intake and a 750 Holley, mid-13's should be a piece of cake. No reason you shouldn't be able to outrun a GTO for sure.

[This message has been edited by hemi-1 (edited March 01, 2000).]
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  #6  
Old 03-02-2000, 04:56 AM
Mike 70RT/SE Mike 70RT/SE is offline
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Hemi-1, thanks for the info. I guess the new stall is mandatory... Any recommendations from experience on Stall speed and size? Naturally, I consult local speed shops, but I'd like to get recommendations from guys that really know mopar.

Thanks again for your help,
(Reaping the benefits of membership less than ten hours after joining--I love it.)

Mike
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  #7  
Old 03-02-2000, 05:23 AM
Mike 70RT/SE Mike 70RT/SE is offline
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Hemi-1, just a sidenote: Why did you cut out the part of your message talking about compression ratio? Though I've already checked that out, IMO it seems like it's a very good bit of info to have circulating on this board.
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  #8  
Old 03-02-2000, 02:24 PM
hemi-1 hemi-1 is offline
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I realized after I posted my message that the second post was yours, so the compression info was unnecessary.

On the convertor question, the easy part is, for the street, use an 11 inch convertor. Harder part is they are not all the same. I've used a Turbo Action 11 inch Super Street, which Mancini sells for about $275. This is hardly your only choice, and I can't even say it's the best one, but I think it would be a good one.
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  #9  
Old 03-02-2000, 03:29 PM
ChristianCuda ChristianCuda is offline
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On the converter I use an Alabama Converter myself at 3500 stall with out any problems. What you need to think about is overall package. If you use the Performer RPM package than you are talking about 2500-5500 operating range. So a 3500 Stall would be too much but a 3000 may be just right. I usually use a stall about 500 RPMs higher than what I plan on using because due to torque differences in and engine the converter can stall different with different engines.
I knew of a converter that stalled at 4000 attached to a Hemi but then when attached to a 440 only stall 3000.
On the RPM package I have thought of using it myself but now I am going with something with more bang.
You neew to look at your heads and see if the bowls have been opened up to almost match the valve size if they have then you have a start on a ported set of heads and for 13's should be fine.

Christian


------------------
68 'Cuda 383 Working on adding EFI
69 'Cuda Race Parts Car
76 Duster 273 recent transplant
95 Neon 2.0 SOHC best of 16.96
84 Dodge Ram D50 transplanting 360
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  #10  
Old 03-02-2000, 04:13 PM
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The Dartman The Dartman is offline
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Whoops!! We forgot something!! You really need to get a baseline ET time slip before you start to modify to lower your ET. It sounds to me like this combo should run at LEAST mid 14's or so (possibly faster). So you need to sneak out to the track (with GTO buddy none the wiser) and take a couple of passes, being sure to keep ALL of your timeslips. With your timeslip info we can deduce where your combo may need some work (60 Foot, top end, traction, etc.). This is a great, logical way to chop off some ET.

------------------
'73 Dart Sport
318 CU, 12.5:1, "J" Heads, 517L/292D Camshaft
727 trans, 4500 Tci Converter back to 4.30 gears for a best of 12.87@105

[This message has been edited by The Dartman (edited March 02, 2000).]
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  #11  
Old 03-02-2000, 06:16 PM
rat roaster rat roaster is offline
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Dont by a cheap converter made by a no name shop. If the stall speed makes the coverter slip to much(TOO MUCH TOP END LOSS )the thing will stall great engine will rev and car will feel and be soggy.Top end mph will drop, fuel efficiency will suck and the transmission will hate it.The torque converter is the most important part of a good running car. On the other hand paying a lot of money for a converter doesnt mean its good for you either ,check out some cars at the local track and read the posts there is some very knowledgeable people here. What I am trying to say is know what your looking for before you buy.Speed shop sales people (some)will sell you anything whether its good for you or not.I paid $450.00 for a 3800 stall once that lasted 28 passes ,it ballooned and cost me a transmission and another new converter,from a different builder.Guess what the first converter had no warranty for balloning ,converter warranties are a hit and miss thing. My Next converter had ballooning plates,I paid $750.00 Canadian for it and it works great.Abused the hell out of it for 15000 miles now and made over 100 passes at the track.Its a Neil Chance 10" . Not that in your application you need one like this.Just by a tight converter that stalls to were you need it too with least amount of slippage possible and life will be good.
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  #12  
Old 03-02-2000, 08:17 PM
Mike 70RT/SE Mike 70RT/SE is offline
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Thank you everyone for all your help thus far. I'd love to do a shakedown and get some base ET's, problem is I'm doing bodywork right now, it's still pouring in Portland, and I am going to have the heads sent off soon. From what I've gathered here,
this is what I'm going to do:

Performer RPM Package (carb, cam, manifold)
Head Work--A good port and valve job on my 906's
Stall Converter--Research a good 11 inch stall, around 2500-3000 RPM.
With this newfound power, I'll probably have to go for a pinion snubber too (since the car is on jacks, I'll weld in a reinforcement to the floorboard this weekend)

Any other suggestions? Once this thing is rolling, I imagine I'll be back for suspension tuning. Gotta get the car A: Driving, B: Some ET paperwork, before I go much farther.

Thanks again for the advice,

--Mike

------------------
70 Charger RT/SE
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  #13  
Old 03-03-2000, 12:06 AM
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The Dartman The Dartman is offline
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Ok then, raining in Portland.

I suggest you sabotage the GTO....

(LOL) Anyway, how's about looking at that ignition system too? You said "Mopar Performance" unit, but didn't give any particulars. Orange, CHrome, Gold? How well do the big blocks react to an MSD 6AL? There can be some "bang for the buck" here more than elsewhere (easier too). Maybe a 3.91 gear would be a good idea as well and would work better with the Elbrock package.

When suggesting HP recommendations, I tend to stay away from most machine shop work (milling, porting, etc.) until it is absolutely necesary. This way you can examine all your options with bolt on peices before spending a money at the machine shop (which is a lot more costly than some of the bolt on HP pieces).

------------------
'73 Dart Sport
318 CU, 12.5:1, "J" Heads, 517L/292D Camshaft
727 trans, 4500 Tci Converter back to 4.30 gears for a best of 12.87@105
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  #14  
Old 03-03-2000, 01:20 AM
Mike 70RT/SE Mike 70RT/SE is offline
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Dartman--

Love the idea of GTO sabotage... However, he's done that himself by trying to install a "custom" wiring harness. If you could see it you'd be laughing too.

My mopar ignition is the orange box. Should this be changed? Also, I'm not sure what you mean by MSD 6AL... Is this just the controller box? Does it plug right into the existing mopar distributor?

Though I'd love 3.91s, I drive the car enough where I don't really want the added gas mileage expense. (I know the cam and carb and converter seem a contradiction). Premium is around $1.70 in Oregon right now. Maybe if the price comes down, I'll consider a new ratio.

On the machine work:
With the suggested mods a couple of posts ago, will I be able to get a 13.5 without head-porting? I realize any number would be a total guess without any timeslips right now. A car identical to mine ran I believe a 14.4 in Car Life in one of those old road test books. Given the time I seriously doubt it was a factory ringer. That was on bias plys in 1970.

Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first real build on a car I like and drive regularly. Did a Buick GSX in high school (no, not a stage I), but the mods were limited and I parted with the car shortly afterwards.

Thanks for everyone's help.

--Mike

------------------
70 Charger RT/SE
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  #15  
Old 03-03-2000, 02:04 AM
Gary Gary is offline
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Mike, to give you an idea of other setups, here's what my son's '69 Coronet did.
The engine is a 440 with stock rods and low compression cast pistons. Cam is a MP 284-484 with MP springs and rockers. I pocket ported the 452 heads, so no big expense there. The intake is a stock 440 HP, and it used a 650 Holly. It had headers, but not sure which brand. MP orange box electronic ignition, stock 440 New Yorker converter and 3.91 open rear end. It ran 12.70's all day on 9" slicks.

He recently spent a bunch of bucks to go to a MP 509 cam, forged, higher compression pistons, Holly 750, larger fuel lines, better converter, bigger headers, better tires and suregrip. He now runs 12.30's. The half second is not worth the money he spent.

Spend your money on the heads, and you will get the most bang for the buck.
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  #16  
Old 03-03-2000, 02:37 AM
BillyBob BillyBob is offline
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I don't know what your hood clearances are but a motor with as low C/R as you say you have is very ideal for a supercharger with no other modifications necessary. No changing rear gears, pulling heads, installing different ECU etc. Cost is probably not that much significantly different than what you have in mind to do and you have a saleable unit when you're done with it. Gas mileage remains about the same as long as you right foot doesn't have lead in it.
BB
Just my .02 worth

[This message has been edited by BillyBob (edited March 02, 2000).]
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  #17  
Old 03-03-2000, 04:28 PM
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The Dartman The Dartman is offline
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I've had my fair share of chasing GTO's too. My friend had an orange '68 which ran 13.87 while my car was running 14.2's. After that I was running 12.8's to 13.0's chasing my brother's MOldsmobile Butlass which ran a best of 12.36 this year. The only consolation you may have when running slower then your competition is this: Work real hard at cutting lights and being consistant. When your buddies are back on the trailer after first round and your ready to go to the semi's, this makes those tenths to not seem like too big of deal.....

Anyway, I'd say the orange box is good enough for now. The MSD is really an aftermarket ignition system which takes place of your ECU, but it is not really a direct plugin. On the Eldebrock kit (is it about $400?) they seem like a great way to go for proven parts that WORK TOGETHER. This is important in any combo.

As far as Supercharging this motor, the cost does not justify it. $2000+ is about the minumum for any supercharger setup. This is not a good idea since you have soo many other areas you can work on too. And its not just "BOLT ON" piece for your motor, since you have to have a "blower" cam, less compression, a built bottom end, and the list goes on...

PS Ever try any of the ET calculators of HP estimators? There are several on the internet which are a little inaccurate, but this may be a way to get a ball park Et on your combo before you go up against the Goat....
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  #18  
Old 03-03-2000, 04:38 PM
Hemi Mike Hemi Mike is offline
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A good friend of ming ran a 13.99@101mph. Heavy '68 Charger, with a 2000 stall (feels like no stall) converter and 323's. Engine is a 440 10:1, 284/484 cam, CH4B intake, Carter comp 750, headers and 3"exhaust. The heads are bone stock. It might go 13.80.
The TTI 3" exhaust brought this combo to life. We recently installed 391's and this thing loves 'em. No reason the 355's should not work for you though. Plenty of gear for an RPM pkg. And great for a driver.
Next up for us is a set of Hughes Engines stage 1 #452 heads and a 3200/3400 stall. Maybe by Dynamic. Should be soon so i'll let you know how it works out. 12.99???
-Mike
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  #19  
Old 03-03-2000, 10:41 PM
Mike 70RT/SE Mike 70RT/SE is offline
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Hey, everyone thanks for all the feedback. I really appreciate it. I took someone's advice and have bought Chuck Senatore's book as well as ordered the MOPAR Engine Tuning Secrets. Hopefully this literature with the experience of this chat board will get me where I want to go. It's amazing the type of community and resources MOPAR guys have compared to the other crap, especially considering the limited production...

I considered the blower because I have a stout bottom end, but I'd be out of pocket quite a bit for that. As mentioned below, it is VERY pricey, I like having my air conditioning and there's no way I'm driving a car with a hole in the hood on the street (save for a shaker hemicuda or a airgrabber roadrunner). Nothing wrong with it, it's just something I would never do.

Thanks again for all the advice,

Mike

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70 Charger RT/SE
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  #20  
Old 03-04-2000, 02:10 AM
451boy 451boy is offline
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It only takes 300 hp to put a 4000 lb car into the 13's, 325 hp will put a 4000 lb car into the high 12's if you can get all of the power to the ground. I don't think you need to go spend all that money on parts, just get your car dyno tuned and hit the track. Any 440 in good tune should make enough power to run 13's.
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  #21  
Old 03-04-2000, 03:00 AM
hemi-1 hemi-1 is offline
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Well, we've got a lot of responses. I'll add just one more cent worth to what I've already said.

I agree with 451boy that it doesn't take that much horsepower to go really fast so long as the suspension/torque convertor/tires have been optimized for the quarter-mile. However, a street car with street gearing, street tires and suspension that will work on turns and not just in a straight line will not ET nearly as well as another car with the same horsepower that's been set up for the strip.

Even so, a 440 B body can easily run 13's without steep gears, big cam, ported heads, chrome ignition box, headers or slicks.

Cam selection can be debated endlessly. My guess, for whatever it's worth, is that the Performer RPM cam is a bit more than you need considering your stock valves and exhaust manifolds. Drop down a step and I think you'll have more torque and probably just as much power. I'd still go for the RPM intake, though, as it will work well with a milder cam. And a good torque convertor will work wonders for 0-40 acceleration. I'd recommend keeping the 3.55's for the street unless you like to drive slow. Heck of a note to be cruising on the interstate with a 4.10 geared 400-horsepower musclecar and have to hold it down to 70 mph while 100-horsepower econoboxes fly by at 90.





[This message has been edited by hemi-1 (edited March 03, 2000).]
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  #22  
Old 03-06-2000, 01:08 AM
sublime70 sublime70 is offline
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My opinion? Stick with 3.55 gears, a small cam, good exhaust, and SPRAY IT! A simple 125 horse kit will make that thing come alive, and you will still have great driveability. It's not cheating if they don't know it's there. My 2 cents worth.
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