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  #1  
Old 03-05-2000, 09:12 AM
ArthurRAiken ArthurRAiken is offline
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Question

Just thought that I'd ask a couple of quick Q's on EFI.
Who makes EFI kits for Mopars?
Whats the best kind of EFI to use?
Port?
TBI?
What can someone expect to spend on converting over to EFI?
Thanks for your replies,

Arthur
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  #2  
Old 03-05-2000, 02:44 PM
turbododge turbododge is offline
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Arthur:
These are just my opinions, but are based on that I have had a DFI, fuel only, port system on my 340 challenger for 8 years and am in the process of converting it to a wide band O2, fuel and ignition, Speed Pro system. If you are going to bother to do the work, I would definitely stick with a port injected system.

Who to consider?

DFI Accell-old technology-new system almost 1 year late and still having problems. Current system will only run on old (386) laptops. Screens are very slow to update.

Holley--old systems reportedly had lots of problems and not very versatile--new system due out is supposed to have much better features, but was late getting out. Only info on Holley web site and not complete. No literature or pricing was available as of 2/10. Might be O.K. but is brand new.

Motek--Everyone says that it is the best, but it was prohibitively expensive for my street application.

Haltech--Also said to be very good, but expensive.

Speed Pro (FP)--I chose this unit because it had many of the pluses of Motek at about 1/2 the price. It does get expensive if you get into sequential firing and individual cylinder fuel adjustments.

I paid about $2000 for the setup with everything except the throttle body, air, water, map, and air sensors which I already had. I did modify a different intake for it to get to a single plane. It cost $40 for fuel rail blanks, and $6 for aluminum to make the bungs. Welding was $30. I did all the machining myself at home on a small lathe and mill. Shops who do this type of work charge about $400 if you supply the manifold.

I am nearly finished with the swap and should be running in about a week.

P.S. Speed Pro has their program on their website, so you can download a demo version to look at.

BEST OF LUCK!



[This message has been edited by turbododge (edited March 05, 2000).]
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  #3  
Old 03-05-2000, 03:56 PM
BillyBob BillyBob is offline
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turbododge,
I am using a "Haltech" fuel management system only, on a 98-V10 works great & as far as the price, was about $1K not installed. In my opinion, thats not all that much. Unit was set up with chassis dyno, which is a must, for proper tuning of any neww system. The system you made will probably work, but the final setup & outcome is better seen on dyno for the truth. I do agrre 100% that port is the way to go.

I am not trying to be snotty, but just adding my .02 on the subject. Thanks.
BB
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  #4  
Old 03-05-2000, 04:48 PM
turbododge turbododge is offline
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Hi BillyBob--
I totally agree that if you have access to dyno and the associated exhaust temp and mixture gauges, it is a huge plus. I tuned my old DFI on the street and it was a royal pain. You have a big advantage in normal driving over us with older head designs, you can run closed loop at stoich. With the older head designs you wind up programming the entire fuel map open loop to get to a mixture that will run. Wide band O2 cures these problems. I am not familiar with the Haltech programming, but I am assuming you run open loop (at full power) and program in the pulsewidth you want for the injectors. Without a dyno, you can go closed loop, wide band O2 sensing and run closed loop at all times. All you do is program in the desired air/fuel ratio. It can easily be programmed on the street. The computer also tells you what corrections are needed to center yourself in the range. Once set, you never have to worry about altitude, fuel heat or anything else, because you always have the same air/fuel ratio at all spots on the fuel map (they can all be different). The system runs closed loop even at full throttle to whatever mixture you want.

Was the Haltech you bought a box only or did include other things? The $2000 included the box, harness, 36 pound injectors (8), program, and all the connectors. It is also full spark and fuel, closed loop control, with wide band O2 sensing, and included the wide band O2 sensor (price those things).

Let me know how yours programs and if you run a combination of open and closed loop, I would be interested.

For comparison, I think a DFI fuel only system is about $600, but it is not anywhere near the unit that the Haltech is.

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  #5  
Old 03-05-2000, 05:30 PM
BillyBob BillyBob is offline
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Cool

turbo,
Where do I start?
This post might be lengthy but here goes:

Haltech Fuel(Only) management system-
Std. features:
up to 16K rpm tuning
1,2,3,4,5,6,10,12 cyl(1-2 rotors)
2 or 4 stroke
na or supercharged
load sensing by throttle pos or manifold press.
multipoint,batch-fire,staged inject.
8.6-16DC
high or low imp. inj.
map sensors(1-2-3 bar)
NTC temp sensor
TPS
engine speed pick up
ECU-injector driver(expandable to 16)
fuel pump control
your 'puter req.: IBM-PC,3.5,9-pin serial por

Adj. Features:
base fuel maps- 3 selections
Corrections Maps-Cold start prime
Coolant Temp- 32 points
Air temp-32 points
Batt. Volt Correction-32 pts
Closed throt(select.16 pts.
Full Throt.-select.32 pts.
Prog. REV-limit
Fuel cut on decel
Accel pump
Closed loop Control-cruise & idle settings
Proggramable Output options

Misc.-
Map storage & retrieval
Data logging
Real time programming
Optional mixture trim module
Std components are:
ECU
Coolant sensor
Inlet air sensor
TPS
MAP sensor
Main wiring harness
Innst manual
Prog. cable
Prog. disc
relays
Fuse block

Many other optional items available, including baro sensor.
I got injectors from RC as sized from chart.

Did I answer all your questions? If not reply.
thanks!
BB
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  #6  
Old 03-05-2000, 05:50 PM
turbododge turbododge is offline
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BillyBob
Very interesting! Quotes I got on Haltech were MUCH higher! How much do they add when you want wide band O2, spark, individual fuel control (that's how I was quoted). What are you running the V10 in? (I'm new here). Do you run any closed loop with standard O2? Where did you buy your system? Install yourself?
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  #7  
Old 03-05-2000, 06:32 PM
BillyBob BillyBob is offline
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turbo,
What I should have done in the begining was to give you: www.haltech.com address.
Who quoted you on the system?
Was it fuel & ignition, if so the price is more.
As far as wide band 02 sensors: almost any 02 sensor can be used, the 02 sensor option from Haltech is a NGK 4-wire unit. This is the preferred sensor due to its temperature stability & the switch-like characteristis of its transfer function. Others sensors may be used but caution as to their slow reation times & poor repeatability. Wide-band 02 sensors may be used & can be extremely useful as a tuning tool during engine data page or in datalogging. Response time seems to be the key for this sensor.
As far as what I'M using is the standard GM(yeah,I know) 02 3-wire sensor.
As far as the installation, I installed most of the wiring, welded in the appropriate bungs for the sensors, then delivered it to the dyno shop for the balance of the install due to if I changed the injectors being of a different type of size & impedance. I would have had to have tow truck deliver it to them & they would have had to push truck around in their shop while working on it. I didn't think that was a proper thing to do to them. They are an "Authorized" distributor for "Haltech" equipment.
Due to my truck being a V10 the injector harness had to be "hand made" by the installers. Tuneablilty of this system is quite wide & options/add ons are numerous.
I looked at a couple of other comparable systems but they were not as versatile as the "Haltech". Especially since the V10 uses 2 coil packs.
BB
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  #8  
Old 03-06-2000, 06:18 PM
ChristianCuda ChristianCuda is offline
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Have either of you checked out Rance EFI they have a complete system you just send them a manifold for them to modify and then send you everything to setup your vehicle. The computer, wiring, fuel lines (except the line from the tank to engine), fuel pump, assembled intake (your suppllied intake) with injectors and rails, throttle body, Fuel Pressure regulator, and all sensors. All this for 3500. Now I dont think that that is all that bad for this complete of a system. Oh and this is for systems up to 450 HP if you want more it uses a different fuel pump and so it costs more and I cant quite remember how much. I think the web address was http://www.rancefi.com/
My only problem for this system is that this car is extremely low budget and Even though I probably could scrape up the money I want to keep it low budget like under $6000 total project. Right now it is around $3000. And I still have a lot of body work to do to it. So spending 3500 on a fuel injection system wont work. Not yet anyway.

I am building my own ECU (Electronic Control Unit). And will be using standard available sensors and I am custom making an intake and using dual throttle bodys in a ram air designed intake. One thing is that this will all be different. It also will be more than a year when I get around to finishing it but I can wait its been five years since I bought the car and progress is slowly creeping along on it.

Christian

------------------
68 'Cuda 383 Working on adding EFI
69 'Cuda Race Parts Car
76 Duster 273 recent transplant
95 Neon 2.0 SOHC best of 16.96
84 Dodge Ram D50 transplanting 360
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  #9  
Old 03-06-2000, 07:39 PM
BillyBob BillyBob is offline
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Christiancuda,
Rance unit appears to be morre $$$$$ than what "Haltech" system is as well as there is no info. on applications available. Options available are also not listed, such as staged injection,transmission shift control,turbo waste gate control,shift light indicator, and many other options as avail. from "Haltech". I don't sell "Haltech" for a living but, when there is a good product on the market all should know about it.
BB
(Didn't mean to rag on you)
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  #10  
Old 03-06-2000, 08:59 PM
turbododge turbododge is offline
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Christian:
Took a look at the Rance site. It looks like what they are selling is Accell/DFI. This is the older system that I mentioned earlier, that I had as a fuel only. It is not a terrible system, but is definetly showing it's age. Most of their price is probably into the special harness,intake mods and all the other things that are needed. You can do most of the items yourself and save a bunch.

I am very interested in how you are going to do a homebuilt ECU, as this is way past my capabilities, but sounds fun. Also, you will not have to spend near as much on a system. If you are interested in my old DFI, fuel only, CPU and software, I would guess it will be finding it's way to the trash as soon as I determine if the new system is all it is cracked up to be.
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  #11  
Old 03-06-2000, 09:00 PM
ChristianCuda ChristianCuda is offline
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Cool

BB I will check out the haltech.

Dont worry your not ragging.

We all can learn from each other. No sense in all of us spending more money than we need to if some already has found out the hard way. Thats why we all are here today.

Christian

------------------
68 'Cuda 383 Working on adding EFI
69 'Cuda Race Parts Car
76 Duster 273 recent transplant
95 Neon 2.0 SOHC best of 16.96
84 Dodge Ram D50 transplanting 360
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  #12  
Old 03-06-2000, 10:17 PM
BillyBob BillyBob is offline
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Turbo,
Have you ordered/received/installed your Speed Pro system yet? If not I believe I can get you the addy for authorized "Haltech" distributor, if your'e interested.
BB
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  #13  
Old 03-06-2000, 10:23 PM
BillyBob BillyBob is offline
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Christian,
The other thing that I forgot to mention is that "Haltech"is not limited to 450HP. I have 466HP at the rear wheel at present & will probably increase as more mods are done.
I should also mention that Force Fuel Injection in Fla. can make up custom fuel rails for any application & his prices aren't too steep.
BB

[This message has been edited by BillyBob (edited March 06, 2000).]
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  #14  
Old 03-06-2000, 10:27 PM
turbododge turbododge is offline
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BillyBob:

Speed Pro system is received and 95% complete. Hope to be running next weekend for testing (unless it snows).
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  #15  
Old 03-06-2000, 10:35 PM
BillyBob BillyBob is offline
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Turbo,
Got a web addy for Speed Pro system? I'd like to check it out.
BB
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  #16  
Old 03-06-2000, 11:14 PM
turbododge turbododge is offline
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BillyBob: here you go.
http://www.tciauto.com/ecu/index_spe.htm

also www.fmperformance.com
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  #17  
Old 03-06-2000, 11:49 PM
BillyBob BillyBob is offline
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Turbo,
Looks like a similar system, as "Haltech", but it looks like they nickel & dime you for pieces to make up full system? The newest release for electronic from Haltech now has the 32-bit architecture in it. I bought 2 systems(1 for just fuel management & 2nd system was ignition & fuel)with some extra goodies-baro sensor,etc. & cost approx.
$ 3,500.
Having said all that, I wish you well & interested in how it turns out for you. Are you tuning on dyno or at the track?
Are you using Bosch type inj? HI/low imped. inj.?
BB

[This message has been edited by BillyBob (edited March 06, 2000).]
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  #18  
Old 03-07-2000, 02:44 AM
turbododge turbododge is offline
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BillyBob:

Still running my old 36# high impedance Bosch injectors from the old DFI. Have a new set that I am saving as spares/test that came with Speed Pro. We will be tuning on the streets and highways.
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Old 03-07-2000, 02:52 AM
BillyBob BillyBob is offline
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turbo,
Boy thats a coincidence, I'm using 36LB high-imp. also.(only 10 of them) $83 per from RC
BB
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  #20  
Old 03-07-2000, 03:06 AM
BillyBob BillyBob is offline
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Turbo,
How did you determine the injector lb/hr flow rate for your car?
BB

[This message has been edited by BillyBob (edited March 06, 2000).]
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  #21  
Old 03-07-2000, 07:44 AM
ArthurRAiken ArthurRAiken is offline
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Wow, thanks for the replies and the great discussion going on. I guess I have a lot to learn about EFI before I consider it a viable option (budget). It's also good to know that there are systems out there. There really hasn't been that much press coverage on EFI for mopars and I did even think that you could really make your own system.

A70duster- nice pics on the web site you posted.

turbododge- does speed pro have anything new comming out soon?

billybob- why are some systems limited to only 450hp?

Holly, Speed Pro, Haltech- When are you going to make your systems affordable so the average guy (me) will be able to buy them?

Anybody- Where is a good place to start in order to learn more about EFI.

Thanks again for your replies,

Arthur
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  #22  
Old 03-07-2000, 02:29 PM
turbododge turbododge is offline
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Arthur:

Speed Pro told me that they are working on a Windows version of their system to be released possibly this year. Haltech has a Windows version in Beta test starting about now. The newest DFI and Holley systems are also supposed to be in Windows. Personally, I am not sure that the Windows way will be as easy to use. In the current DOS programs, all the screens and entries are off the keyboard, so it is easy to do while the car is moving. I have trouble with a touchpad or joystick in the car. We will have to see how they actually do it. If you are tuning on a dyno, this becomes a non-issue.

a70duster:

Those are really cool pics and well done text! The only major differences that I do is to make the bung ID's undersize and the OD's a press fit into the manifold. I then use an aluminum bar for a weld fixture to locate the bung tops at welding. I do the final bore on the bungs in the manifold so I can hold size and match the fuel rail spacing exactly. I do make my fuel rails out of the extruded blanks that you can buy from Accell. When everything is in place, all the injectors should be able to be rotated a little (not clamped by the fuel rail) but also not able to move up and down.

BillyBob:

I don't have a copy of one here, but the injector manufactures have a horsepower/injector size application chart. You estimate the horsepower you will have, and look at the chart under the fuel pressure you will run, and the chart will tell you what injector size you will need. (you would have to adjust for 10 cyl.) Fine tuning for capacity is usually done by adjusting the fuel pressure.

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  #23  
Old 03-07-2000, 02:56 PM
BillyBob BillyBob is offline
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Turbo,
Windows version has actually been out since Y2K, E6K version, they really need to update their webpage.
Yes, I calculated inj. size in the same manner, I was just surprised that your injectors were as small as mine. What kind of HP are you expecting to get?
BB
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  #24  
Old 03-07-2000, 03:45 PM
turbododge turbododge is offline
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BillyBob:

I should be good for right around 600 hp, at pressures around 45 psi. I am right on the max end of their capacity, but wanted to stay as small as possible to preserve idle and low speed capabilities.
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  #25  
Old 03-08-2000, 07:17 AM
speedy6963 speedy6963 is offline
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Biggrin

the speed pro system does do ignition right? do you use it to trigger an MSD or what? how does the system trigger from the motor? crank trigger setup? mag pickup in distrib?

Im really interested in having wideband o2 on my twin turbo smallblock I am building.

Thanks

Quote:
Originally posted by turbododge:
BillyBob:

I should be good for right around 600 hp, at pressures around 45 psi. I am right on the max end of their capacity, but wanted to stay as small as possible to preserve idle and low speed capabilities.
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  #26  
Old 03-08-2000, 02:41 PM
turbododge turbododge is offline
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Speedy:

Yes the Speed Pro does do the ignition. I am working on sourcing a no advance, mag sensor distributor now (see other posts). I will be triggering an MSD 6 from the Speed Pro. Hopefully, I will know if it works by next week!
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  #27  
Old 03-10-2000, 01:16 AM
speedy6963 speedy6963 is offline
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Biggrin

well I took the plunge today and ordered the speed-pro system #30-113010, BTW how much did you have to give for yours???

Quote:
Originally posted by turbododge:
Speedy:

Yes the Speed Pro does do the ignition. I am working on sourcing a no advance, mag sensor distributor now (see other posts). I will be triggering an MSD 6 from the Speed Pro. Hopefully, I will know if it works by next week!
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  #28  
Old 03-10-2000, 03:34 AM
turbododge turbododge is offline
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Glad to hear it Speedy!!

I ordered a partial system because I could use a lot of my existing parts from the old DFI. I bought the 30-123010 fuel and spark ECU, batch fire, wide band O2. Also got 30-7013 injector harness, 30-7012 Main harness, and 8 37# injectors. It came with the O2 sensor and extension harness for the O2 sensor. All the harnesses were for Chev. and had to shortened to fit well. It totalled up to just under $2100. I just got the correct distributor and phased the rotor tonight. Hope to do electrical test and possibly test fire this weekend. Probably no test run yet as it snowed today!

Good luck on the install--keep us posted.

[This message has been edited by turbododge (edited March 09, 2000).]
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  #29  
Old 03-14-2000, 07:22 AM
speedy6963 speedy6963 is offline
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Question

You get that thing running yet???? I want to hear about it and see pictures... :-)

Quote:
Originally posted by turbododge:
Glad to hear it Speedy!!

I ordered a partial system because I could use a lot of my existing parts from the old DFI. I bought the 30-123010 fuel and spark ECU, batch fire, wide band O2. Also got 30-7013 injector harness, 30-7012 Main harness, and 8 37# injectors. It came with the O2 sensor and extension harness for the O2 sensor. All the harnesses were for Chev. and had to shortened to fit well. It totalled up to just under $2100. I just got the correct distributor and phased the rotor tonight. Hope to do electrical test and possibly test fire this weekend. Probably no test run yet as it snowed today!

Good luck on the install--keep us posted.

[This message has been edited by turbododge (edited March 09, 2000).]
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  #30  
Old 03-14-2000, 02:23 PM
turbododge turbododge is offline
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Speedy:

Test fired on Sunday. Minor problems only! Took about 1 hr to trouble shoot and correct to get it to start. So far have only worked on start and idle areas, but it looks very good so far. All the harnessing is in place, but still needs to be wrapped and tied back. The weather is still bad here, so I am going to pull the exhaust manifolds to address a small leak while I am this far disassembled. Exhaust gaskets have been a problem, and last about 3 years. I am going to try the new embossed copper this time. I will shoot some pictures as it is right now and try to get them developed this week!

How are you doing on yours? Did the Speed Pro arrive yet?
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