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  #1  
Old 02-21-2000, 08:12 AM
2_5thAves 2_5thAves is offline
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Question

I just happend to run into the Fifth Avenue's of the mopar family. Although most wouldn't consider it a car to "hot rod" but I guess I'm just a big auto enthusiast and don't want the same thing everyone else has. I personally have never seen anyone do too much with their Fifth Avenue as far as speed is concerned. I know the "M" body's are pretty big and heavy, but I wouldn't think their much more than others. I now only have the stock 2-brl 318 along with the trans. and rear. I know that a 360 swap isn't a "big" deal other than some $$$. But if one was to go the 360 way, why couldn't you go a step or 5 further and use a big block? I would GREATLY appriciate anyone's input on this, and one thing I know is that I'm definatly gonna stick with my Fifth Ave. any pros?
Thanks

------------------

---owner of---
85 Fifth Avenue
86 Fifth Avenue PARTING OUT
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  #2  
Old 02-21-2000, 11:06 PM
cruzerjd cruzerjd is offline
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I would build up the small block first and see how you feel about it's performance. I know that with my '79 LeBaron with the 318 2 bbl I picked up a lot of useful horsepower by eliminating the Lean Burn computer and using the MP Ignition Upgrade kit with the vacuum advance distributor. I also put a cast iron 4 barrel manifold from an '82 Police cruiser and a Holley 4 1850-3 600 cfm 4 barrel. I predict I am making about 170 hp now which is a far cry from the lousy 120 hp I started with. The 360 is a little more involved in installing. It is probably preferable that you use the transmission and torque conveter that comes with the 360 if you do a swap. It will make more power than the 318, but I still prefer the 318 for reliability. When you get into the big block swap, then you are talking a lot of bux. Schumacher makes an installation kit that is available with headers that will swap the motor in, but you will have to back it up with a 727 tranny instead of the 904 and will have to manufacture a shorter driveline and modified rear transmission mount. A b block aka 383/400 or low block big block will fit in better than the rb engine. You will be able to use the larger power brake booster and should not have as much clearance problems. Onto the rearend. One quick way to get more performance is to swap out your really low 2.27 gears for something more along the line of 2.9 0r 3.23 gears. These can be found in the junkyard under older f body and some m body cars and also light trucks. This is just a start, but I hope it gets you in the right direction. cruzerjd
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  #3  
Old 02-22-2000, 12:21 AM
Thunderstruck Thunderstruck is offline
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I have an 87 Diplomat with a 360 swap. I am using the original A998 trans in it. I used the B&M weighted flexplate (~$75) to address the external balance issue. That's the only thing you really need to do to slap a 360 in. I tried to buy some 360 motor mounts but the aftermarket lists the same mount (I am talking the bracket NOT the rubber insert) for the 318 and the 360. This isn't so but with a 1/2" spacer the 318 mount will bolt to a 360. The 318 exhaust will bolt up. Not the best choice but I have a visual inspection to pass each year. In the past I upgraded my original 318 from lean burn to MP electronic ignition, from 2bbl to 4bbl, from 2.26 geared 7 1/4 to 2.94 SG 8 1/4, added cop sway bars, coolers, and rims. I run P255/60R15 tires in the back. Many people think the A904 trans cannot handle a 360. They are wrong. I have two 360 powered cars with the A904 trans, one's a lock up one isn't, both have well in excess of 150k miles, niether have every been rebuilt or given me grief. Granted I have put a shift kit and a deep pan in both and the Diplomat's has the extra external cooler from a copcar.

Now both of my 360's are fairly mild. Windage tray, lifter valley baffle, blocked off exhaust crossover, 340 magnum cams, stock 4bbl intakes, MP ignition, good plugs and wires, that's about it. I can hold my own with most cars.

Steve

------------------
38 Plymouth P6
65 Plymouth Barracuda
87 Dodge Diplomat
89 Plymouth Caravan
96 Dodge Neon

"No quarter asked, none given" - Thunderstruck Racing
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  #4  
Old 02-22-2000, 09:28 AM
cruzerjd cruzerjd is offline
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Thunderstruck has the formula right, I patterned my 318 after his, except i havent went with the new cam. Thus guy knows his mopars, so go with his advice. cruzerjd
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  #5  
Old 02-22-2000, 05:00 PM
ChristianCuda ChristianCuda is offline
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Thunderstruck is right about the 904 they not only are lighter than the 727 but will hold almost as much power. Besides that they are alot more common. I have a friend that only races with 904 and runs 7.18 in the 1/8 with a 68 'Cuda and well built 360. He is currently building a totally new engine and also changed gearsets in the tranny with adding the 5.0 lever and we will see this race season how it does. But that tranny has always held up.

Christian


------------------
68 'Cuda 383 Working on adding EFI
69 'Cuda Race Parts Car
76 Duster 273 recent transplant
95 Neon 2.0 SOHC best of 16.96
84 Dodge Ram D50 transplanting 360
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  #6  
Old 02-25-2000, 06:03 AM
2_5thAves 2_5thAves is offline
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I appriciate all the info. I'll keep everything in mind as my spare time and $$$ progress. Anyone know the appx. weight of the mid 80's fifth ave's? Does anyone have/know of a site that someone has a built fifth or other m-body? Anyone done a big block swap w/m-body? Thanks again! ...if interested, I have mine along with my "ex"-Geo Storm at www.baumbach.com/lisa


------------------

---owner of---
85 Fifth Avenue
86 Fifth Avenue PARTING OUT
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  #7  
Old 03-05-2000, 12:53 AM
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Glen440 Glen440 is offline
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I have put a 400 in a 5th Ave. It wasn't too hard. You can buy the mounts to make it a direct bolt in. I went the cheap way.The passenger side mount is in the right spot but the driver side mount is too far back. You can cut it out the car and bolt it on the motor and tack it in place when you test fit the motor. The k frame must be notched for pan clearance. I used a driveshaft from a cop car with a 727, but I also had a 9'1/4
rear so you might need a longer shaft. The tranny mount needs to be slotted a little,
but will bolt up no problem. The problem comes with exhaust. I couldn't fit the manifolds so I used headers.62-65 1'3/4 headman b body headers fit. The car was fun to drive but it wasn't too fast. It had 2.71
gears. It was equall to a 99 5 speed 318 dakota. I would still be driving it but the motor has a strange knocking sound.It didn't sound like a bearing. As soon as it heats up I'll dig into it. I also have a 440 Volare.
If you have any questions you can e-mail me
glen440@hotmail.com. I'm not on the chat too often.
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  #8  
Old 03-05-2000, 04:31 PM
Hemi Mike Hemi Mike is offline
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When the cam in my '85 M-body police cruiser flattened a lobe after 180k, I decided to do a 360. Like steve, I used the existing tranny, added a shift kit, deep pan and a B&M weighted flex plate. Thanks Steve, LOVE the Trans-Go.
With it's ultra stiff suspension and all of the external coolers, I feel it's a great foundation for a daily driven street brawler. Lower profile tires to keep the center of gravity down and this thing corners like mad. Don't forget the large brakes.
Gotta brag about the eng! Used the MP pre mag 9:1 360 shortblock, Hughes engines stage 1 heads and their 224/230 504/515 cam. Small Holley 600vac on an Edelbrock performer, both for throttle response, MP orange box ign. and blockhuggers to a single exhaust, Flowmaster Y-collector, 3 1/2" mid pipe to a 3" muffler. The smallblock also keeps the weight down.
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  #9  
Old 03-05-2000, 09:42 PM
cruzerjd cruzerjd is offline
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Hey Hemi Mike, which headers and Y pipe did you use. I want to upgrade my exhaust but I don't think I have room for duals without cluttering up the back end of the car. A single 3" pipe seems like it would be the way to go. Also did you have the pipe custom bent or does someone carry something like that? cruzerjd(J. Smith on Farleys)
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  #10  
Old 03-06-2000, 08:43 PM
Hemi Mike Hemi Mike is offline
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Hey J. Whats up man. I used Sanderson blockhuggers. $250. Had I been doing the exhaust now, I would have looked into the Spitfire's.
Sandersons come with a flat 3 bolt 2 1/2" collector ring that will connect the exhaust to the header. Hooker also makes 'em. I bought a variety of aluminized and mandrel (3)45*, (2)90* and straight pipe through JC Whitney, and a Flowmaster Y-collector through Jegs(dual 2 1/2"in, single 3 1/2"out).
I had to cut and file the 45* pipe on an angle and have it welded to the flat collector ring, making sure it was pointing in the correct location. The drivers side is tight and with the wheels cut all the way to the left, fits between the pitman arm and starter. Then cuts 90* under the oil pan, in front of the trans(like factory) and 90* back to the Y collector. Passengers side is easy to the Y. I went through the trouble because I wanted a mandrel Y pipe. Someone at Farley's uses a 2 1/2 pre bent Y from an older car which fits. Much easier and no cats either!
Forgot to mention, The factory type 2 1/2" Y pipe will not work with the center dump blockhuggers. Another reason I made my own. And also, the left header had to be dimpled on the #1 and #7 tubes to clear the power steering box. Can't wait to see the Spitfires.

[This message has been edited by Hemi Mike (edited March 07, 2000).]
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  #11  
Old 03-16-2000, 03:08 AM
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Marc Marc is offline
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I have done MANY engine swaps on a "J" body and think alot of my experiences may apply.
The 360 was basically a bolt in with MINOR changes on the driver's side mount. I think it was a 1/2" spacer. I used the original lock-up tranny and welded the 360 counterweights onto the 318 converter. It had .030 milled 202 J heads and a 268 Comp cam in a 1971 bottom end and it WENT.
I went big block (440's) using late model engine mounts, a Milodon deep pan, a "K" car brake booster, a 1967 "B" body 8 3/4 with the spring perch holes opened up, and Hedman hedders with the very rear tube on the driver's side re-routed. It was all bolt in as was the late 70's club cab long box (rear) driveshaft. Just the rear portion of the stock 2 piece driveshaft! A big car 3 core rad with a shroud and...
It's EASY to do on a "J" body, I'm sure the "M" body is similar.
The car weighed 3350 with a small block and 3500 with a big block, NO driver.


------------------
Tubbed 40 Plymouth Coupe
Tubbed 71 Demon
1989 Shelby Lancer
1978 BB ClubCab
1973 Scamper 440 MHome
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  #12  
Old 03-23-2000, 02:28 AM
5thAve 5thAve is offline
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I have a 360 5th, of course Thunderstruck, 2_5thAves, and cruzerjd already know this (expecially Thunderstruck from all my e-mails when I was learning about external balance ). I added info about a LeBaron coupe to my site, http://www.angelfire.com/ca/mikesspot
and from there you can get to the forum, which has exact info on a big-block swap (I've also posted it in the performance talk forum here). Try Farley's forum aswell for info, http://www.dippy.org. Do a search in the performance talk forum here for fifth avenue and you'll find info aswell about headers, cams, etc...

[This message has been edited by 5thAve (edited March 23, 2000).]
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  #13  
Old 04-26-2000, 02:58 AM
Rich Thompson Rich Thompson is offline
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I built a 79 Diplomat with a .030 over 360.
It was 9 to 1 compression with 915 ported casting heads,it had a Erson .510 solid lifter cam,M-1 single plane intake,An actual
3000 stall convertor and 4.10 gears with sure-grip. She ran 12.30's at 108 with no problem. Make sure you change the fuel line to something at least 3/8" I.D.. I loved that car because no one in their right mind would have thought it was that fast.

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  #14  
Old 04-26-2000, 03:00 AM
Rich Thompson Rich Thompson is offline
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Red face

I built a 79 Diplomat with a .030 over 360.
It was 9 to 1 compression with 915 ported casting heads,it had a Erson .510 solid lifter cam,M-1 single plane intake,An actual
3000 stall convertor and 4.10 gears with sure-grip. She ran 12.30's at 108 with no problem. Make sure you change the fuel line to something at least 3/8" I.D.. I loved that car because no one in their right mind would have thought it was that fast.

------------------
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  #15  
Old 05-19-2000, 02:39 AM
saggly saggly is offline
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Question

Hey guys. First of all I'm confused. I was always under the assumption that a 318/340/360 were all the same block, only bored and stroked differently. Am I wrong? If this is so, Why wouldn't the motor mounts sit the same?

On another note, I am the proud owner of a 1984 m-body. I removed the stock 2-barrel carb, cam, exhaust, intake, and ignition. I replaced with the following:
Mopar performance orange box ignition.
Wolverine Blue-racer 458/458 260*/260* hydraulic lifter cam
Edelbrock performer intake
Edelbrock performer 600cfm carb
Hedman f-body headers to fit an '83 model
2-1/4" dual exhaust
cheap old 2-1/4" cherry bombs
Double-roller timing chain at 2* advance

When first finished, My car had 2.22 gears in a 7-1/4" mopar rear end. It also has an A-999 lock-up tranny. The car (after modifications!) would easily run 150 m.p.h. and get 20 m.p.g. But, it was extremely slow on initial take-off. I have now changed the gears, and now have 3.55 gears still in the 7-1/4". I had to change the carrier to do so. The car will now fly until lock-up, but it seems like it still just doesn't have the oomph to push it in lock-up. I haven't figured out why this is. I'm trying to find someone who has a 750cfm carb I can try, but I don't know if this will help either. But as far as installation, the headers were the hardest thing to do. I just took the starter , the starter stud, all exhaust studs, and the trailing arm out. Then jacked the motor as far up as it would go with the mounts loose, and the hedman headers fit just fine. Summit will tell you they won't fit. Anyway, if anyone can tell me how to get some more power out of this thing, please tell me. It's just a father-son toy. It's been real fun building it.
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  #16  
Old 05-27-2000, 07:56 PM
cruzerjd cruzerjd is offline
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Ahh, another m-body owner who isn't afraid to build the car up. I would ditch the 7 1/4 rear first thing, with the power you are making it it will shred that rear pretty soon. Find a good 8 1/4 with 3.23 gears and suregrip and put that in there. It will give you good acceleration without winding the motor out. You didn't say if you had a 318 or a 360 so I will assume it is a 318. The carb and manifold should be perfect but the heads are probably your biggest restriction. The latest thing right now is getting a set of 302 casting swirlport heads and using them. If you can afford to have the bowls ported then have that done. you could probably match the intake ports to the manifold but that is not a real restriction. The smaller ports and the swirl design of the heads will really give a lot of intake velocity and that will make a lot of power. The other thing I can suggest is to got to http://www.dippy.org/ and check out the site there. There is a lot of good info on m-bodies and especially Dippies. cruzerjd

[This message has been edited by cruzerjd (edited May 27, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by cruzerjd (edited May 27, 2000).]
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  #17  
Old 11-02-2004, 08:27 PM
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5th_Ave_Sleeper 5th_Ave_Sleeper is offline
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Default been there, done that, got the timeslip! hehe

I have gone through the whole process, I have an 86 5th Ave with a 360/727/8.25" with a tunnel ram,two holley 600's 10:1 compression solid lift cam, big tube headers and a 13.8sec @ 103mph timeslip in the glove box!
Its been a while since I posted. I went through a divorce and had to move where I dont have a land line or internet. (I got to keep all of my cars thank God)
Unfortunatly, these cars wiegh @3800lbs They really need a big block to move them any faster.
man, its good to be back on the forum!
5th
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  #18  
Old 11-02-2004, 10:57 PM
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MoparMarcIdaho MoparMarcIdaho is offline
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Question

Glad to hear you survived-when you get a woman and a lawyer together it can be quite a challenge.I lived without power water or phone for too long myself.Hows the car runnin?
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  #19  
Old 11-03-2004, 12:59 AM
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waldo67 waldo67 is offline
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saggly first get rid of these components
Wolverine Blue-racer 458/458 260*/260* hydraulic lifter cam
Edelbrock performer intake

replace them with a performer rpm intake a 470 lift 270 duration comp cam run a 650 holley dp

your intake isent much better then a stock 4 barell
you wolverine cam isent doing anything to tell you the truth ive run them before and they are not up to par for performance the rpm intake will increase the throttle response big time and will help the engine build moe upper en tourque put a different set of heads on it find a set of x j or u heads put 2.02 intake valves and mill the heads 20 thousands set the timing at 34 degress total at 2500 and leave the vaccum adv un hooked use felpro 1213 intake gaskets and for head gaskets use the detroit hi performance series
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