P/g Or 727 ?

[blackcuda]

I WAS WANDERING WHAT YOU ALL THINK. I HAVE A 70 440 'CUDA THAT I RUN HEADS UP. WE RACE 1/8 MILE, 3400 LBS. BIG BLOCK/ 3200 LBS. SM BLOCK. STOCK SPRINGS AND 10.5 DOT TIRES. I AM THINKING OF GOING TO A GLIDE OR AN ALUM DRUM 727. MAYBE WITH THE GLIDE I CAN SPRAY OUT THE HOLE AND NOT BLOW THE TIRES OFF. ANY SUGGESTIONS OR OPINIONS?

[23T-Wedge]

Blackcuda,

Saw your other post, sorry to hear about your mishap, glad you're alright. Weight-wise, you're right on the border-line as far as any performance gains between a glide and T/F, and as you have already found out the bolt-in sprag is not the cure-all for T/F problems, you definitely need to run the aluminum clutch drum if you stay with the T/flite. You probably will lose more than one sprag, but the alum drum, (if its a good one..) will hold up if you do. Your thinking is also correct on a glide calming down your launch. I was running a fairly mild 461 low-deck in my altered with a T/F, ran 5.70's all day long, never had any problems, then built a 512 injected alky motor, 1st gear multiplication with T/F made it a total bear, never could get it to hook consistently, went to a glide, instant 5.25's never had any more problems hooking, and as much as I hate to say it, the glide is a whole lot easier to work on. Either way, you need a shield of some kind,(you probably know that now...) the blankets are a pain but they do work, I think CSI is now making a tight fitting T/F shield that will fit under the stock tunnel. Good luck.....

Ronny
Waymaker Racing
John 14:6

[bubby440]

if you go with a glide you need a broad power range usually with a light vehicle. if your running a sm block / 3400 lbs i don't think the PG is the best choice. at this performance level it's hard to make anything completely indestructible.

[blackcuda]

THANKS FOR THE INPUT GUYS, I DON'T KNOW YET WHICH ROAD I WILL TAKE I KNOW IT WILL BE CHEAPER SHORT TERM TO GO BACK WITH A 727, BUT IF I HAD AN UNLIMITED BUDGET I WOULD LIKE TO JUST TRY THE GLIDE AND SEE IF MY E.T.'S WOULD IMPROVE. I TALKED WITH THE GUYS DOWN AT B.T.E. AND THEY SEEM TO THINK THAT IN MY APPLICATION THE GLIDE WOULD BE QUICKER.

I WOULD LOVE TO SEE THAT 23T-WEDGE, I BET YOU TURN A LOT OF HEADS WITH THAT BABY!!!

[23T-Wedge]

Got a buddy in Dickson, TN that runs down in Jackson occasionally, really likes the track, know they run some Mopar meets, hoping we can both get down that way sometime this year......

Ronny
Waymaker Racing
John 14:6

[MoparBilly G]

Blackcuda,
Perhaps the critical question for your type of combination is not the choice between a Glide or 727..its what type of converter you use with that choice.
The converter selection is much more critical if you choose the Glide, because you'll spend more time in the run "on the converter", than with a 3-speed. The 727's extra gear can make it more forgiving to a poorly chosen converter, or a poor quality converter. With a glide, and nitrous a poor quality converter, can cost you more than 6 tenths and 5-10 mph...without failing...just wasting power. Did you know in addition to diameter and stall speed, converters can be built to different Torque multiplication values to affect the amount of power applied at launch?? In fact the famous Turbo- Action J is exactly that...it was built as a "soft launching" converter to allow the Mopar Super-stockers of that era to leave without uncontrollable wheelspin!!
Most modern conveters can be built with values from1.8 to 5 Torque Multiplication, with the higher number being a harder hitting unit. Contact Hughes, Coan, Dynamic, etc, and give them your entire combo and get a custom built unit to fit what your doing....if they won't take the time to work with you...move to the next company!!!
I have a 440 powered 2850lb Challenger with a glide and a 9" hughes that is a little to tight on the motor but works extremely well on the bottle with 14x32s. My brother has a 440 in a 3400lb Coronet with a 727 and 8" TCI that works great on the motor, but is loose for the bottle, and wastes power. I gain 1.3 sec. on juice, he only gains .9 sec. He has 15x33 tires, and has more trouble getting down marginal tracks on the bottle than I do. Hope this long-winded diatribe helps

[Leigh]

I have never heard a bad 'glide conversion story if it used quality parts and the right converter. I think you will be both faster and more consistant. I would love to have a 9-1 starting line ratio, it would help my hook problems as well.

[fox]

If your going to run the BB, have you thought of calling A+A and getting a 2.2 ? gear set? I would consider tricking out the TF.
fox

[BIG RED MACHINE]

Lets see here 3400lbs BB,,,3200 lbs SB,,and you want to run a glide ,Well its your car!! All I can say is this,The NHRA/IHRA S/SS racers would disagree with you,,See a 70 Cuda With a 440/6 combo (like mine) in in SS/GA tips the scales near 3700 lbs and will still run in the 9's,,The Gt/SS guys with their SB combos ,depending upon motor and year ,will trip in round 3200 to 3500 lbs and all run 904's,and consistentally run into the 9's,,So since you are still on springs I'll use a 426 hemi A/SA Cuda/Challenger for the example,,Now we all know of NHRA's fear of the hemi power so with shipping weight x HP factor (which is not in the hemi's favor) they will tip out 3700+ in A/SA and in B/SA over 3800 and run into low 30's(10.30) with good mph and on 9 in slicks and leaf springs,,So put in a slipenslide(oops,powerlessglide) and I'll ask WHY??????Research my son do your homework before you make this mistake...... Oh, one other thing, how bad could a 727 be,I'm sure you know in the early days of Fuel Coupe(aka funny car) these trannies were their life blood...

[blackcuda]

Big Red, I have not made any purchases yet and I am still trying to figure which will be the best path for me to take. My car has been all mopar for a long time, but I am racing heads-up and if a glide will help me win and will last longer then it may be the best choice! I have not ruled out a full-tilt 727, and if I find that it is a tie I would stay loyal to mother mopar, but I fill I should research all of my possibilities and find the best one.
I have been running a PTC 9.5 nitrous converter and as one of you stated the converter is the key. The converter has held up, but I have to wander if I would not do better with a converter that was "Tighter". I noticed that on a 200 shot the car picks up about .5 in the 1/8, but when I went to the Big Shot plate with 300 pills the car did not pick up at all! I did have some tire spin when I shifted from first to second so maybe I lost what I would have gained. Anyone want to put there .02 in on this? I posted this so I could get some opinion's from folks that might have been there, done that....

[MoparBilly G]

BlackCuda,
Would love to help you tune up your combo, and find some more E.T., but we need a little more specific info on what you have now and how fast you have been running/would like to run!!
Does the car transfer well? is it yanking the front end like a stocker? when you said "300" pills were you talking 102/110 or 120/116? current 60'ft,330ft,1/8 mile et and mph? Tell us about the 440, your goals Etc.
My Challenger has a best 60ft of 1.27 with a glide, 14x32s and big shot plate with 102/110 jets. It would take a lot of work to do that with 10.5 and springs. Lets move beyond the tf vs glide Question and get to the specifics, so we can give more educated opinions!!

[BugEyedValiant]

727 727 727 727 727 Definately the 727. Your car is TOO heavy for the glide. I have seen way too many 8 sec 3400 pound cars have a 727. You need the first gear. How does your car run anyway? Mine is similiar to yours (I think) and run 10s with a undialed combo (last time with a junked Turbo Action valve body and badly slipping band I went 10.9@135). I personally run Tranzact stuff, and Joe is very familiar with what you are doing. He is still running a 727 in his Dakota and it has Blown Alky 500 hemi going 4.6s in the 1/8 at 150+ mph, and he has a fit when people come up to him asking about the glide.

[blackcuda]

My combo :

71 440 .030 over TRW flat tops, factory crank and rods, balanced w/ zero deck.
Stage 6 heads ported, flows 315 @ .700, Comp roller .704 lift, 304-312 on 112 lobe sep.
Team G 1050 Dominator, MSD 7AL-2, Hooker Super Comp w/ 3.5 Flowmaster race mufflers.
10 qt Charlies pan, swinging pickup, all ARP fasteners, Comp alum. roller rockers & shafts.
NOS big shot plate, BG pump, regulator 10AN line w/ return, 15 gallon fuel cell.
727 TCI reverse manual w/ bolt in sprag, deep pan & 4.2 lever.
8.75 w/ factory clutch limited slip, 4.11 gears, 30-12.5-15 ET Street.
S/S springs w/ snubber, drag shocks rear leafs unclamped.
PTC 9.5 nitrous converter foot brakes @ 3800
3410lbs. as raced, best ET 6.24 @ 112, best @ 60 ft. 1.48.
Car launches w/ front left about 3 inches off track, rear raises about 2-3 inches.
Has bad tire spin from 1-2 upshift till 2-3 upshift while on .120/.116 NO2 jets.

I need help to beat this sm. block chebby/ glide 68 camode, last race he went 5.98 in qualifying, won event w/ 6.10! Thank you all (Mopar Billy G) in advance!!!

[MoparBilly G]

BlackCuda,
I'm very impressed with how hard your car is running with the parts you have assembled. The numbers all sound good except for the 60ft. Exactly when are you grabbing the spray?? Is the 727 trashed or still togather? I can't see justifying a Glide unless you are starting from scratch.
Here are some concerns I have; with this kind of power I'd rather see you on a spool. It also seems to me that the SS springs are too stiff..What is there LB. rating?? I say this because stiff springs/shocks would contribute to wheelspin on shifts. A softer spring would allow the car to react to the shift, not just skate on top of the tires.
The converter is too tight for the cam, so Im thinking the car is a bit lazy on the leave, then hits its power band and screams to the red line, then 1-2 is very violent! The good news is a 5000 stall would make the shifts less violent...the bad new is you might not be able to hook it off the line!!!!
I'm not a leaf sping car expert, but we have to get it to transfer better on the launch(2-3 foot wheelies would be nice) and react to the track..6.24@112 is great and sounds like the car is working all the way, my brothers AMX went 5.99@116, all my time slips are currently being ups'd to me from ElPaso, where I left them at a motel with my luggage after running the Nats in Houston, so I can't compare right now....All this is off the top of my head...I'll do some more research, and call some Stock/ SuperStock friends for spring reccomendations. Also, I haven't got the 120/116 jets to outperform the 102/110's yet on my combo...don't have an answer yet!!

[blackcuda]

Yea the 727 went in a BIG way at the last race. Damaged the floorpan, wires under the dash, firewall, etc. So I am kinda starting over. The converter is still together. I have not had it checked yet. The S/S springs are the lighter of the two listed for my car, I belive for 3300lbs. I am at work and don't have all of the specs in front of me. I plan on adding a cage and a shield or blanket, I feel I was very lucky to walk away with just my pride (AND WALLET) hurt! What is your opinion on the caltracs? They are legal in my class and the chebby guys seem to have good luck with them. It looks like the car will be down for most of this year while I rake together the money to get it back. I would like to take advantage of the time that I have it apart and get it repainted and hopefully find a way to get it in the 5's.........

Thank's again for your help, and let me know if you come up with anything!

[wyoming 64savoy]

Caltracs work well as long as you do not use SS springs, they recomend a Landrum spring I believe. You could also try Tri-City Competition, Greg Luniak the owner makes what are call Laucher Springs, most of the A B stock racers use them. I would also think your car is too heavy for a Power Glide, I've seen it tried, and most, if not all felt they wasted their money, they were running quarter though, eighth could be different matter. Other than that I'll be watching, I think Mopar Billy can give you better advice than me, but I think I'll keep my eye on the discussion.

[blackcuda]

I was surfin around and found on the lenco website that they are now offering an automatic. Has anyone seen one, how much does one cost? I sent them an e-mail and asked the, gulp, price, but no response. Oh well they are probably way out of my budget, but I have to check.....

[MoparBilly G]

BlackCuda,
In veiw of your current situation, a glide may be the best choice.
My resoning is, if you go back with a 727, you will always wonder if the Glide would have worked, If you go with a Glide and really don't like it..all that stuff will sell very easily!!! In fact, I'd hit the used market for your first one and try it out..Go with the ultrabell over the adapter kits. Used Converters are an option to get you started...If you go new, don't buy anything off the shelf...call and discuss your combo wth several companies before you decide...you also may have to drop to 4.30 or 4.56 gears to optomize the setup for 1/8 mile.
Your car closely resembles a stocker in suspension, but the quickest stockers are going 6.33 at 106, so you're trying to put a bunch more power to the ground than they are. I know a bunch of leaf spring mopar guys are considering Cal-tracs as the hot new ticket but I'M DEFINITELY NOT AMONG THEM!! Most of the ones raving on them are much slower than you are. Cal-Tracs will never be as effective on Mopars as they are on Chevies and fords because we don't have equal length leaf springs which they are designed to work with. I didn't say they weren't capable of being effective on a mopar, but due to our stiff front spring segment and long rear leaf segment, they will never quite work the way they do on a camaro!
I wouldn't even consider them on a B or A body, but E bodies, due thier short overhang over the rear do need help. I would call Greg Luneak at Tri-City Competition and discuss thier "launcher" leaf springs for your car. They are on many of the top E-body stockers, I would also investigate Cal-tracs, and while I know they don't want you on SS springs or another type with a stiff front segment, don't let them talk you into mono-leafs, THIS would be a mistake!!! Good shocks will be necessary when the suspension gets dialed in, I would reccomend HAL corp stockerstars for the front to control re-entry when you get it Launching correctly and the same, or the ranchos Cal-tracs like for the back. I'd rather see you on the Launcher's than the Cal-tracs, but either will be an improvement over the too-stiff setup you are running now. Good luck and keep us posted on your decisions, any more questions or discussion would be great!!!

[BIG RED MACHINE]

MMM,,Seems like I said the same thing a few threads ago,,The Caltracs are not needed on the E bodies either,look at all the fast A and B stockers on springs(Rayburn,Little,Wann,Walc,Aluise,Dvorak,and so on),None use them,,Still would not consider the slipn slide glide,How could one ever say a torqueflite will not get the job done and hold the pressues of what he needs to do,,Seems like a lot of old time F/C guys might disagree and I know the current group of Superstock heavy hitters,from all the classes,would also,,Ultimately it his choice,seems like I'd be calling Pro Trans in CA or Frank at Dynamic in De for some input,,Like Ive already said RESEARCH,RESEARCH!!!!!!!!!!

[23T-Wedge]

Big Red,

I somewhat agree with your commitment to the T/F, but the F/C guys more than busted their fair share of trannys, the only reason they lasted as long as they did was hard rubber 10-inch tires lessened the shock somewhat. Might have been different if they'd had aluminum clutch drums back then, but T/F and C-6 failures did as much to hasten the development of the Lenco as anything. Wish there was one solid concrete answer to this one, bottom line is either tranny can work given the right components. Absolute bare minimum for the T/F is a good aluminum clutch drum that won't explode at three times engine speed. All the sprags in the world won't help a stock drum stay together if (when...) one does let go.

Ronny
Waymaker Racing
John 14:6

[MoparBilly G]

Big Red Machine,
I'm not trying to say Glides are better than 727s, far from it!! Go through the pits and look at all the Super class cars with glides and they will all tell you they love 'em....then look in thier trailer or pick-up and you'll see thier spare one setting there ready to go!!! Everyone has a spare or two, because glides are short-lived between rebuilds compared to a 727 and I also agree that the extra gear is important for cars over 3000 lbs.
But, BlackCuda has a very specific set of parameters and goals, and I know from first hand experience the massive amount of torque thats on tap with a 440 on N20!! That torque output combined with small tires and leafs present problems that I think a "slip and slide" glide might help overcome!
I also don't wish to defend Cal-tracs, but they are showing up on mopar stockers, including Steve Wann's "Rettig Bros" B/SA '70 GTX 440-6... I haven't had the chance to discuss them with him personally, so I don't know if they have helped. I mean, that car has been a well-sorted record holder for 10 years or more without them, so it's not necessarily an endorsement that they are on there, it was fast then, its fast now!!
I can tell you he's running them with a multi-leaf spring...I'll corner him at the next divisional I go to and get his input on them...

[blackcuda]

Hello everybody, I've been away for a few days. I will check out the launcher springs and I thank all of you for your input, I still may try the glide, I will let y'all know what the outcome is. For now I am repairing the floor pan and I plan repainting the car and installing a cage. I have a few other little items that I have been putting off for too long that I plan on taking care of while I have the car apart. Hopefully when I get it back to the track I can turn some good numbers and win one of these events in something other than a chebby II or camode, HA.

I'll keep you posted on the development and thanks again for all of the help!

[MoparBilly G]

BlackCuda,
Long time, no hear from!! Was wondering if you had come to a decision, or had the car back together yet!! We are anctiously awaiting some more news!!

[blackcuda]

Hello Mopar Billy,
The car is still in the garage with lots of work to do... I just bought a new house so my race car money has been very low latley.

I have been checking out some of the alum. drum 727 that are out there, but have not made up my mind yet. Do you know what the King of Street guys run? Just curious, well keep in touch and let me know if you find any more info...

[beepbeepsrule]

I have a friend that runs a '70 Challenger with a 540ci Indy, just gasoline, no spray. I only talk to him a couple of times a year and I just met up with him last Sunday at our local MoPar show. I asked him what the latest numbers were for his Challenger and he gave me these: 9.38 at 143mph. This is a full interior steel bodied car with leaf springs, very stock looking ride except for the cage. I asked him what he ran for a tranny and he said it was a very close to stock 727 with a turbo action converter. He does not run it every weekend, maybe 5 times a year so the durability may not be tested in his setup, but low 9's in a 3700+ lb car is quite a testimony.