mopar for local sat. nite racers

[crackerg]

On ocassion, (I have run a mopar for last 4 years) I run into one of those racer want to be's, that wants to sing the praises of the mother ship (mopar performance, or chrysler).

I always bite my lip and try to have paitence as they tell me about how easy it should be to build a mopar now days since dodge is running nascar and now that mopar performance is sponsoring Mark Kinser in the World of Outlaws.

These kind of people (in my opinion) have no clue what it takes to make a mopar program sucessfull on local saturday nite racers budget. Plus they are always shocked to find out that all the latest goodies that Mopar Performance sells are priced quite high.

I believe it takes people with know how and above average skills to be sucessfull with a dodge program on dirt using the old A block.

When I see those Mopar performance commericials on TV during the races it makes me sick, especially when they try to claim that the crate motor is such a gem at $3000 dollars, and they try to pass it off as a race motor. When its nothing more than a street motor at best.

Ever try calling the mopar peformance techline and ask them a few questions about building a alcohol motor for a dirt car ? Good Luck those guys are clueless unless you need some info on how to put a big block in your charger instead of slant 6 or A block.

Mopar performance needs to spend less money running there mouth and more money making the latest parts affordable for the local racer. They also should make more and better products for the A block at reasonable prices.

While I am proud to run a mopar, it would be nice if the mother ship would step up to the plate and give us half the support the bowties racers get and quite bragging about all the new motors and parts that nobody but the dodge WOW and NASCAR teams can afford.

Anyone feel the same ?

[sanborn]

Yes, I understand your patience. Unfortunately, the general public just doesn't understand because they haven't ever built competitive engines. We are a little different from most local Mopar racers because we use all aluminum engines for our dirt Late Model(just like practically all our friendly local GM and Ford competitors). I keep a distributor hold down clamp in the trailer to show them that's the only stock part that we use in our engine. That's all, not even any gaskets interchange(although in theory the cranks will).

If you shop prices of GM and Ford pure race components, actually Mopar is close although still a little high. The GM Nascar race blocks are $1700 bare, unmachined. Fords are comparable. Aluminum heads for all three brands are priced very close(bare, unmachined). Actually, after you get past the block and heads, everything else is aftermarket.

The availability of used, serious race engine parts is the real problem. They are practically non existent at this time. That will change in time but it will take time. I have been sitting on a used "R" block and W7 heads for a year because I have no replacement aluminum parts if we had a major engine failure(although that is about to change). If I needed used GM or Ford Nascar parts, I could pick up the phone and with two calls have enough parts on the way for ten race engines. The Mopar parts just aren't available, yet.

Forget about the Tech Line, they don't have a clue. Even the factory people joke about them.

Up until now ALL the race engine engineering efforts have been directed to oval track WOO and Nascar development. Now that the steep development curve is behind them, you will see more info coming about local, Saturday Night Racing. The well publicized DC profitability problems will slow the work but it is being done. The info will take the form of complete, descriptive engine buildups for Cascar, Nascar Late Model, Hooters and local Super Street oval racing. This is all iron block, iron head type info. And hopefully they will recommend real aftermarket parts, not what is in the Mopar catalog.

Hang On!

[355 racer]

Sanborn, I agree. Mopar tech guys don't know what they are talking about when talking about a real alcohol race engine. When I built the R3 engine,I couldn't believe all the parts my dealer had to return because of mis-information. Our rules call for stock iron block,heads,and crank. We had a modified running at my track for last 8 years with a combination of 340 parts. He went thru 2 to 3 cranks a year in that car. I couldn't afford to be down like that. It is almost impossible to buy new parts off the shelf, you had better have a stock supply of your own on hand. I had offered to write an article on the correct part numbers and gliches you would run into on building the engine.
I thought this would help some of the racers run Mopar,but my offer was thoroughly rejected. The only stock parts are heads,block,crank ( internally balanced like chevy ) roller cam bearings,intake,and timing chain cover, everything else is after-market. 'Harry'

[crackerg]

355:

You are correct it is important to have a good inventory of stock parts available on hand.

Thank goodness I have a decent source, although it can still be a problem.

One of the latest things that the bowties guys have is those vortech heads, ( $425 complete) what a deal those are cheap and good right out of the box.

While mopar guys are left scrounging for x or J heads and spending the bucks to get them prepped. Hughes and RAM in Virginia have some excellent heads and they are priced fairly for the work they put in them.

Mopar Performance needs to offer something like that for heads for the racer. The magnum heads are a big improvement but they require expensive valve train and wont work with the old A block without some work.

THis is part of the gripe I have, its nice to beat a bowtie racer with a mopar, however we could do more if we had the parts support that chevy does.

I realize the FOrd guys dont have good either

I will keep pluggin away lol

[Rich33]

Those Vortec heads for Chebbys aint as cheap as they're made out to be. To make them work on a typical Saturday night street stocker, you've gotta change the springs, change out the self aligning rockers and mounts, get the right valve covers (center bolt) and find an intake that's gonna work (even more problematic if your rules stipulate stock cast iron for intake). In the end, you'll be putting out right at a grand for the right setup on the vortecs that will accomodate a solid cam. And don't forget that these heads are very crack prone!

They're doing it, but the price for the A engine swirl port head castings is very favorable in light of all the stuff I've mentioned above. I agree with all of the things that's been mentioned above about Mopar...We really have a tough row to hoe in Saturday night circle track racing.

Don't get me wrong, 'cause I love running a Dodge, but it would be nice to see some real, viable, trickle-down support that includes circle track racing, not just the drag stuff.

[sanborn]

355, I am surprised you have been able to use the cast iron crank. Several years ago, when we ran limited late model, we would crack the stock 340 cranks at the rod journal fillets when the track was rough and really hooked up. We had to break down and buy a Moldex billet with 3.3305" stroke. That thing ran for us for two years and is still being used five years later. Best investment we ever made. I don't know what the price is today but at the time the billet was about $100 more than the Mopar performance (Kellogg forged 1053) crank.

To all racers- This site is about the best thing we can have for racer information exchange. Maybe we could call it "The Real Oval Track Racer Tech Line".

[modracr41]

I agree with Crackerg, I think that a lot of people don't realize the struggles of trying to compete with a mopar.
The initial cost of putting together an A block that will survive is quite a lot, especially on the average Saturday night racers budget.
All of that said, I still feel that cube for cube, mother mopar is the way to go. A few months back, I contacted a gentleman that was doing some research and development with a small block mopar in a mod. He got invited to a race in North Carolina, and after the feature, the driver of the second-place car, which was chebby powered, came over to him and started quizzing him as to how the heck he got so much power out of that. Then, upon further inspection, he asked, "What kind of water pump is that?" The mopar guy replied, "A dodge." All the poor chebby guy could do was hang his head and shake it in disbelief as he walked away.
That is why I want to run a mopar. It may take a little more time and effort, but in the long run, every time one of those chebby guys gets his feelings hurt it is another win for us...........See ya at the track......Modracr41

[355 racer]

Sanborn,
I made a mistake, should have said a STOCK crank. I really use the forged 1053 steel crank w/ the radiused fillets at the main and rod journals. 3.45" stroke ,J&E domed pistons,and W2 47cc closed chamber racing heads. The crank was $ 760,and heads bare
$ 890 pr.

[355 racer]

Just been given a copy of a Mopar book called "Mopar 358 oval track engine build-up manual." From what i've read so far,it seems decent. It is essentially an R3 9.5-1 engine build-up book. It even lists all of the non-Mopar parts used, such as Jesel, Moroso,Carrillo, etc. and gives contact people and phone numbers. I just noticed the price on the cover $ 25.00 , that just left me choking.They are using W8 heads, which is of little use to me, but the overall information is good.
Harry

[Glen440]

I havn't run circle track but I have friends that were running street stock up here. The biggest problem was there was so few dodges I think they didn't want to see them win. Its sad when a field of 50 brand x and maybe 2 dodges and a dodge wins. My friends got teched on such stupid little things like wrong exhaust manifolds, orange ignition box etc. When the chevies run super coils in there caps and run serious motors and don't get torn down. Some don't even idle and there suppose to have a stock cam. My friends didn't even cheat and managed some wins. One track made rule changes to slow the Dodges down after a couple cleaned up in late model. They made the Dodges add 150 pounds over the Chevs and limiting intake valves to 1.88 when Chev could run 2.02 and aftermarket. They want to make the Chev guys happy so they make the Dodge guys suffer and quit. Then people think Dodges are slow cause they can't compete and everyone thinks Chev's the best.

[Rich33]

I've been on both sides of the rules issues at race tracks and can tell you that the racers say one thing and the promoters say another; usually the truth is somewhere in between.

The funny thing is good rules serve both sides of the fence. They help to keep the field even which makes for exciting shows. But, it also helps those middle and back-of-the-pack guys because their PERCEPTION of a fair playing field is paramount. If the new guy or average runner feels that there's no possible way he could ever win a race without spending huge amounts of money or cheating (usually both) then he's done. And, if he's done the class is doomed. As a promoter I need those 20-30 average joe guys in the field to make a show...Not the two or three run-away front runners.

It's not just Mopars that face pressure when one of them starts lapping the field and/or winning consistently. It's anyone in any make. That's bad for the show. But, the way to handle that is to have good, easily enforceable rules that are carried out evenly. Singleing out the leader and adding rules specifically for his car is counter-productive. Once the rules are set for a season they need to play out that hand and live with the results. Then at the end of the year after the dust has settled it's time to review and make adjustments as required. And, after all that, the fast guys will still be fast. They'll still win. But, you're hoping that the margin is less and the field is more competitive. If not the track should have to live with it for the season.

Attacking some of the Mopar stuff in stock type racing is just plain ridiculous. For example in a stock ignition class how do they know that a chrome box isn't just some cheap parts house replacement that happens to be chrome? And, if you can legally run 2.02 valves in a Chevy you'd better darn well be able to do it in a Dodge or even a Ford for that matter. I've even heard of some tracks going after the Mopar front suspension because of the torsion bar weight jacking effect in a no-weight jack class. As a promoter I want more Mopars and even Fords to provide some variety and entertainment to the normal 95 percent Chevy classes.

But, it doesn't just happen to Mopars. Ever wonder why IMCA (and Wissota, too, I think) don't allow '72 - '81 Camaros in their street stock classes?

[sanborn]

If you are the first Mopar to race in your area, it is tough. When we started racing limited late model several years ago, we ran into a brick wall on rules especially on W2 heads, bore/stroke ratios and couldn't race anything over 358", maximum rod length of 6", zero deck height, etc. It took some education of the local tracks and eventually the Southern All Star circuit but we finally got it done. We bought Mopar Engine Manuals, highlighted the important parts, and set down and met with them. In addition, we obtained(from Mopar Techline) copies of factory engine bulletins and included them as well. We found if you covered them up with real written data(no verbal BS) they would be quite reasonable. We even got some consessions that gave a Mopar an advantage. They realize that 27% of the people in the stands could be Mopar fans and they want to get them there.

Today, Mopar can be quite competitive in local racing and regionally with the Southern All Star circuit. But, down here even the limited late models have $10-14K engines so we talking about serious engines.

[sanborn]

Fellow Mopar racers, I have received two e-mails since last night asking how we can get that much money in a limited late model engine. We have run that class before but sold all our stuff 3 years ago to race Super Late Model. We have considered building another limited engine because it's getting popular again with several special big money races.

The rules are generally 362" maximum, stock stroke, iron block and heads, wet sump oiling, three angle valve job, no port or polish on heads(60 cc), flat tappet cam, flat top pistons, any intake, any carb, battery ignition, no titanium cranks, rods or valves.

A 360 engine does not have a good bore/stroke ratio for racing. The 340 stroke of 3.31" is preferred.

Block- Either R or R2(9"deck)- They give the big bore(4.165") and are much lighter than R3. New-$1500 add about $800 for machine work. Add another $1000 if you can't do the lightening, main journals and lifter bores.
Heads- New style W2 closed chamber-$850 add about $500 for machine work and new bronze guides.
Crank- Bryant billet with 2.25" mains, 2" rods, 3.31" stroke, they come in at 38 lbs-$2800.
Rods- Dyer 6" at 540 grams with Carr bolts are made specificially for limited engines-$1300.
Pistons- CP flat tops, gas ported, 410 grams with PP pins @ 88 grams-$1000 for ten.
Valves- Manley severe duty, 2.055" intake(legal), 1.600" exhaust, 5/16" stems (legal)-$400
Cam and Valve train-Comp needle bearing flat tappet(just like Winston Cup), Isky Tool Room springs, Retainers, locks,etc.-$1000, I would probably try the new carbide tipped lifters, another $300.
Intake- $1200 either sheet metal or serious ported early Holley if I could find one.
Ignition- MSD dual pickup distributor, box and wires-$700
Gear Drive- Milodon, cheaper than Jessel Belt Drive-$300.
Rocker Arms- Jessel or T&D-$1400
Oil Pan- Aluminum wet sump-$500
Miscellaneous-$1500-rings, bearings, gaskets, water pump, etc.
Carb- Stealth prepared Holley- about $700-800
Dyno work- about $300-400
That should give you a serious thumper at about 550 HP with an RPM range well up into 8000(if needed).

[355 racer]

Sanborn,
We were and still are the only ones in our area running a Mopar late model. Our track rules require a 358 ci MAX. engine. Must use a STOCK factory available crank,cast iron heads, factory cast iron block, up to
6 1/8" rod, and a Holly 4412 carb. It is our option for roller cams, porting, pistons ,intake etc. Must pass 9.3 -1 CR, Max. and engine sealed. Car and driver must weigh 2300# after race. Would you please elaborate on the R or R2 block? I thought the R3 was the only 48deg. block, and they bore up to 4.220" I am considering building a new engine for # 2 son.
Harry

[sanborn]

The original "R" block was cast in 1994 and was the first of the new generation blocks. They had the thick deck(to allow 9" deck), thick cylinder walls(to allow 4.180" bore), 48 degree lifter bores but other than that looked just like an "X" block. We have one in our shop and w/4.160" bore and it weighs 174lbs. w/4 bolt caps. It can be bored for needle bearing cam bearings but the rear bearing is small, about 1.250"(I don't remember exactly). There were not many cast and not many in existence(testing and racing failures!)

Someone got the bright idea the trick was to run small bore, long stroke so the "R1" was born. It looked about like the "R" but could only be bored to 4.100" safely. It was lighter than the "R", had the thick deck, 48 degree lifter bores and some may still be around because the truck engine builders would not use them. I saw three sold for $500 each, new, all machine work done. I wasn't smart or flush enough to buy them.

There is an "R2" block. I don't know much about them. I have never seen one. The truck engine builders don't use them so I suspect they are not as heavy as the "R3". I know where there are some and they can probably be bought. Do you want me to find out more about them? I forgot to add, there are some 59 degree"R" blocks but they are designed to be used as factory replacements. I know my "R" is 48 degree, the "R1"s I saw were 48 degree and I assume these "R2"s are 48 degree since they are sitting in a truck shop.

Charles Sanborn

[sanborn]

Harry,
I forgot to add, be thankful you race at a track(or tracks) that have real rules and enforce them. We have only outlaw tracks around and sometimes us rednecks get a little crazy about lightweight parts and spending our last $ for that HP. Remember the old saying "If your house was delivered to you on three axles, you might be a redneck!"
Charles

[355 racer]

Sanborn,
Thanks for the information. No, I am not really interested in the other blocks. I had been told by a local well known engine builder, that the R-3 piston stroke area of the block was shorter than norm, and was closer to chevy SB block weight. I never weighed the block itself. I know we use a domed piston that is significantly shorter in height than usual, and may have been because of the shortened stroke area. We were also forced to use the 47cc heads which were the only W2 heads available from Mopar at the time. The block I used is also the non-siamesed block.
Harry