None Mopar Engines in Mopar Bodies...

[FuryusVIP]

Really this post isn't to enrage died in the wool MOPAR lovers. The fact is, even some of the best MOPAR BB combos cost much more than the offerings from OTHER makes. Since this a DRAGRACING FOURM I thought I would ask this here.

As a racer, all I want to do is go fast...

And, as a racer I have a budget.


My combo is a little different. It isn't an A, B or E car. It is a C body. (laugh if you want too) Last year the car ran 11.90's. 11.87 @ 107mph, 60 footed in 1.52 and ran the 1/8 in 7.41 @90.7mph. On this day the car was DRIVEN to the track 60miles one way, and then went thru 3 tanks of Amoco gold that night, Cruising. I have faith that the Indy Cylinder heads, better intake and exhaust mods that are going on as I write this will get this sled even closer to my 10.90 goal, WITHOUT nitrous. The car is a 1971 SportFury, full cage, dana 60 with 4.30's, a full manual 727 w/ brake and aluminam drum, above mentioned 440 that is .055 over, .650 Crower Roller on a 105 lobe center.
My early plans called for a Mega Block based 540 for next year (2002) using Fred Brewer heads. A wrench was thrown in the works when the guys at the machine shop gave me a friendly ribbing on how much more the Mopar was going to cost me than an equally sized chevy. To prove there point, they showed me a dyno sheet from a 509 BBC with 13.1cr that made 730hp. The price on that engine was 9,000. All new parts, nothing the owner all ready had. 9,000 would barely pay for the Fred Brewer heads and T&D valve gear!
I have also noticed that even the King of Sreet mopar guys aren't running as fast as there chevy counter parts in NMCA or NSCA fastest street car meets.

As for next year, the car will be going back to Alston to install an Art Morrison front end kit, removing the torrsion bars and freeing up a lot of header space. This will allow me to use motor plates and install any engine/ tranny combo I would like.

I'm looking for real racer input here. Not some half cocked mopar fanatic who won't even consider the pluses that this swap might be.


Anthony
Big Chicago

[AZMOPAR]

Interesting thought - there are Mopar bodies around with other mfg (Ford and GM) power. One of the local racers here runs a Camaro with 460 Ford power - its very competitive.
However, no one has thought to build low cost (read low reliability) parts for Mopars. I think that you will find that if you go for some really high quality GM parts the cost to build that type of GM engine will be on the same level as those for a Mopar engine (where only high reliability parts are available). As an example - Shafiroff is offering a "Sportsman" dynoed 540" 840HP engine for $11000 which will probably outperform anything your local machine shop can build. That is with a Gen VI block, Eagle rods and crank, 13:1 J&E, Dart Heads, ATI, Moroso, 1050 Holley, dyno sheets etc - if you want to assemble it yourself it would be $9500. So if I was going to run a GM engine I'd probably go to Shafiroff rather than have some local bozos putting my engine together for me. On the other hand - their "Pro" engines at 555" to 565" (1025 to 1160HP) run in the $17000 to $20000 range with a steel block. That is the type of engine you can buy from Indy with an Aluminum block - similar HP, and similar price. Thats why Shafiroff charges more for their "better engines. You get what you pay for, And you will end up with a belly-button combination (you know - everyone has one). Then you might just as well run it in a GM body because it will bolt in and headers etc are available for your combo.
Just my $0.02.

[FuryusVIP]

I have read and appreciate your post. I follow some of the fastest street car programs, and like I said the Mopar king of street guys, which tend to run some of the best parts out there, are running noticably slower then NMCA and NSCA guy's. As far as my local machine shop, they race what they sell. Their engines run in all classes of drag racing, up to and including quick 8 and 16 classes. One of the guys campains a quick 8 car and drives two other cars. The other use to run an alky funny car in the `80's. Not to mention the marine motors that they are known for. In '99 they built the engine for the viper that won the one lap of america, and have built a 500ci mopar with EFI that made 700hp and almost 750tq. But again, a GM could have been built for less funds and with comparable parts and identical, if not better reliabilty.
The Chassis work I have planned for next year will void the header fitment issue, plus having a C-body no one really makes anything for them anyways. And I'm running the SportFury because that is what I like. I don't see too many chevy powered Furys... so that wouldn't be as common as a belly button then. Would it?



Anthony
Big Chicago

[dschumers]

Anthony, It is your car, do what makes you happy! However, by posting this question on a Mopar board, you gotta expect that the Dogs are gonna be on ya!

[FuryusVIP]

Thanks for the heads up. I got something for the dogs, I love my cars and own all mopars right now. I'm just getting feed back on it now... Lyons, IL. huh? you ain't to far from me...

[dschumers]

Yeah, just a stones throw to the west. What track you run at? You said that you cruise, ever hang out at Mickey's at 73rd&Harlem? That's where most of the guys from Duke's and Zig's go now.

[Gary]

I have only one question.....Why in the world would you go to the trouble and expense of adapting a BBC to a Mopar body when it's a bolt-in in a Chevy body??????....especially a heavy C-body!

If your only interest is going fast and cheap, put a BBC in a Nova and join the generic racers.

[FuryusVIP]

I like all of the domestic musclecars, so sue me. Ever been to the mopar nationals? How many RoadRunners and Cuda's can you see? Same with a Ford or GM Event. look at what happened to NHRA prostock when it was a Firebird only class... BORING. With the new Neon's, Caviler's, Grand Am's, even a mustang and older outdated Firebirds and Olds competeing Pro stock will be fun to watch again.
Yes, I have a C-Body. When I got this car, a C-body is what I liked, was comfortably in, and could afford. A Dart was too small, as was the GM version a Nova. This car, my `71 SportFury, has seen several different Engine combinations, and chassis upgrades. I have too much money and time to ditch my 'heavy C-body' as you put it. The plans next year include an Art Morrison race IFS Front Sub Frame. This willl allow ANY engine combo to fit my car, even a diesel if I want. I would need a huge hood scoop for that.
Let me pose the question to you MR. Gary, Why in the world would I want to go thru the trouble and expense of building a engine, that cost more money and makes less power than another brand of engine? That IS the real question.
A persons hot rod is a reflection of ones likes or dislikes, and I can accept the fact that some close-minded people are unable to think for themselfs and must follow the pack. So be it. But as the Import scene grows, we as older car owners, regardless of brand and whats under the hood, are gonna have to stick together. Does this mean that I would no longer like or look at your RR or Cuda? No. But I wouldn't call you names because you attempted something different.
But then again, you never would be different. That's too hard.

(Sheilds are at 100% and holding)

[AZMOPAR]

Actually thats not a bad idea - putting the GM engine in a Mopar body - its one of the reasons I like to attend the Super Chevy events - I can see GM power loose every round!!!!!

I say go for it and enjoy what your doing. People make mistake all the time - its part of the 5th law of thermodynamics......Once you get it running - let us know how well it runs and how long it lasts.

I see GM guys scatter engines here at SIR just as regular as any other make. If you want to see how well a Mopar engine can run over a long period of time - check this post....

http://www.moparts.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/027907.html

Your blanket statment that you can build a GM engine cheaper and better than a Mopar is indefensible. I can show you several local Mopar or Ford powered rides here that cost less to build than their GM counterparts, and run as fast or faster. There will always be someone around that can do better than you or I do, and you will meet them someday. Local vehicles powered by other mfg engines here are not any more or less competitive or any more or less expensive. If your really into racing then your going to spend money on the project regardless of who the mfg was.

Enjoy yourself - it looks like no-one is rising to the bait here - the dogs are quiet.....and from the tone of your post - you already made your mind up - go for it......

[FuryusVIP]

Nothing is ever final untill it is bolted in the car. I enjoyed your site, the part that I could down load any way. True, that was a blanket statement, I'm sorry. I was looking at building a 540 mega block with Fred Brewer heads. The heads with the CNC port will cost about $7,000 including T&D valvetrain. I know that the weight of my Fury is a minus, so I'm looking for around 800 hp with a streetable CR. Hence the GM plug from the machine shop.I like the fact that your 528 mopar runs so well AND you still take the time to reply to this over-the-top post.
That is more of the replies that I was looking for. Thanks

[Glen440]

It all comes down to setup. Theres a Chev in town with a true dynoed 730hp 468 street motor. $15000cnd to build. First one blew up. Build new one. Only runs mid 11's. motor makes the power but the car doesn't go.
There's a Mopar drag car thats an all factory iron 440 with ported 906's and big cam makes 600hp and runs
10.2's. Maybe 1000lbs difference but 130 extra horse should make it up. They were run on the same dyno.
Chev has 4.30 gears so its not that it has no gear.
I personally think you went overkill somewhere on your current setup. Go the Chev root. It could be the easy and cheap way out. The guys at my work keep telling me to put a chev in my car. I ask them if they ever drove to the track-no it might break. Tipical answer. I made the 2 hour one way trek four times one year and a 3 hour one way once with no probs. Even drove my .484 cammed 400 Volare to Florida and towed a boat back with it. Thats a 2400km or 30 hour one way trek. I don't know a single chev guy that would drive a bigblock car to the track never mind Florida. I only know Mopar so thats what I stay with. I have seen a bbc powered Dart.
The old guys at the show bothered him so much he had to leave. No crowd will accept you. Have fun

[Gary]

FuryusVIP...I re-read my post and can't seem to find anyplace I called you a name.

I could care less what you do with your car, but if you are a Baptist, you don't walk around your church telling the congregation you're going to become a Muslim because they're better than Baptists. It's just not in good taste...accuate or not. I think the same is true for this site.

Talk about me not being different, what do you think of those folks who put Chevy engines into everything? Go to a hot rod show and what do you see under the hood of nearly every car? Go to a custom car show and what do you see under the hood of nearly every car? Go to any race track and what do you see in most of the cars? Installing a Chevy engine is being different?

You want different? I had a 331 Hemi in a '55 4-door Plymouth...that's different. I had a customized '53 Plymouth with a full-race flathead 6...that's different. Owning anything with a Chevy motor is NOT different. Owning a Chevy with a Mopar motor IS undeniably different.

If I can go to the track and beat 90% of the street driven cars with a $1000 engine, I'm very content. Spending an additional $9000 to beat 95% doesn't interest me.

I also don't give a hoot whether any Chevy or Ford drivers apprciate my cars. I have no interest in their cars, and I don't expect them to have an interest in mine.

I agree with the other posts. You want a Chevy and you want encouragement to go that route. Go for it!

[2000 DAK 4.7]

For Christs sake people lighten up! Its only a damn car, not flesh and blood!!! Let him run what he wants its still Detriot iron.

[shannon]

just thought i'd share, theres a guy at my local track with a 89 chevy s-10 running a 360. The truck goes mid 11's!

Like a rock with a mopar block!

[MOPARMANJAMES]

FuryusVIP, I understand what you are saying about the budget thing but you posted that you would spend more money and and make less power than any other brand.
I have to take exception with that, since it has been proven before that Mopar wedge power, I am assuming that you are building a wedge, is at least the equal of the other two makes at least in street fighter trim (read "heavy").
Remember the Hot Rod big block shootout? The smallest motor with the least compression took honors when all else was equal (weight, tire size, fuel).
You stated that your goal was 10.90, what was your goal before that? 11's? and before that? 12's?
What I'm getting at is that you are probably going to wan't to go faster once you reach 10.9's and you see that fiberglass LincolnMarkVIII with a crate motor 460 in it running high 9's.
If it were me and I had ten grand burning a hole in my pocket, I'd see about doing the front end mod you were talking about and see if I could get some fiberglass body panels made up.
But if you want to stick with the heavy set up, I wouldn't jump on that Chevy engine without doing some homework. First of all, If your car weighs alot like over 3600lbs, you may not want the biggest ports out there. Remember, horsepower is a by-product of torque.
Keep the ports on the smaller side, build the bottom end big, and make the power on the lower half of the rpm spectrum, like 6500 peak for hp, 4500-5000 for tq.

Hey, look at that, with a heavier car the smaller Mopar heads are the way to go! Or if you prefer, go with the Chevy oval port merlin heads, intake, block, etc.

Just trying to keep everybody happy!

[Maxwedge]

Look at prices, and be realistic on the parts your going to need, before you make a statement like "Chevies are cheeper". adn make some calls to other, mopar, shops and find out. You got half your engine right there with the Indy heads.
Maxwedge

[AZMOPAR]

Not to mention that your local shop may have a vested monetary interest in pedling their GM parts to you!! NAH they wouldn't do that would they??

[Maxwedge]

if you put 7k into a short block and maxed out those indy heads I bet you could have a big cube monster that would eat the Chevy...that and a WELL setup suspension...and lighten that HUGE front end...
Maxwedge

[Wop5150]

I think you should do whatever the hell makes you happy. I happen to have been raise with nothing but Mopars. I currently have a 66 Chevy Nova with a W-8 Mopar engine, Powerglide, 10.5 inch tire car that runs in the mid to low 8's through the mufflers on only one unit. Why did I build this car? To be Different. Why should you care what people think about your car? The question is, Are you having fun? I get a huge kick when I have a ton of people coming to my pit after I have just ripped off another 8 second pass. You should see the look on their faces when they see that it is really a MOPAR. This is why I built it.

[jkailholz@aol.com]

I say the heck with a fury and how about a dart or duster or valiant?? I have a 67 dart with a 383 that runs 11.40s. Thats with 452 heads, 590 cam , TM6 intake , 4.30 gears. Nothing to exotic about that. Just think if it was a 440? 10.90's here we come. I don't want to bust your chops, but dag on! a Fury? I have to give it to ya , dare to be different. Please reconsider the GM swap. Nothing worse than lookin in a mopar engine compartment filled with something from the general ! I don't care if it cost 3 times as much, I would still build a mopar!

[Rob Campbell]

Anthony,

I chose to run Mopar power in my Ford simply because it was the best combination around at the right price.

However since owning this motor I have converted from a Ford only man, to now appreciating just how tough the Mopar motors really are.

Most people I speak to are blown away by the fact that the car is Mopar powered.

Infact It attracts attention whenever I race I just love to stand back and hear people argue over what it is.

Just about every other Capri in Australia either run 350/400 Chevs or 351 Fords.

My car weighs 2860lbs, 60 foots in 1.65 but has still run a best time of 10.53 @131.2 mph.

With the right converter we expect the car to drop into the 9's.

The point I am trying to make is run whatever combination you think will help you win.

I did and have never looked back.

Cheers,

Rob

[FuryusVIP]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for all of the input. Really, even the negative was good. I hope I didn't insult anyone, because that was not the intent. I have been talking to Fred Brewer about his heads, they seem to be the hot ticket for the true Mopar wedge ( not the Chevy based IHRA motor).
The Fred Brewer head tends to work for bigger engines, 572 and up.I guess I'll just have to build a 600ci wedge. Bummer, huh?

To be fair to my engine shop, they have handled my wedge with all of the attention that they give their BBC's. They have talked to Fred and already have a MOPAR combo ready for my Heavy weight SportFury. Sometimes the chevy guys get me on the fence and I have to come here to be saved.

I have talked to VFN and Glastek about doing a few 'glass pieces for my Sport, maybe a hood and deck lid. The Art Morrison front clip is a go for next year, this will lose a little weight.

Again thanks for all of your imput...

Make Mine MOPAR...

[jkailholz@aol.com]

Thank god you seen the light!! Build it better! Build MOPAR!

[moeflo]

To keep it simple, and lessen the headaches, I'd go the traditional route. Like a bbc in a camaro, a 302 in a mustang, or like my 440 firebird.

[Frank]

Hey Guys, I ran a 57 Fairlane with a 360/727 combo for years. Ford guys hated it for obvious reasons, and because it was damn fast! Most of my MoPar guys liked it. I loved it.

[DartGT66]

Like you said, the most expensive part in your plan is the Brewer heads. You can get that kind of power out with lesser heads, maybe regular B1's would do for you? Or even some Indys? They are around 4000$ I believe. Shop around and figure the budget. It's true that building a semi serious Mopar is more expensive than building a semi serious chevy. This is because there is less competition, the comparable heads are more expensive and the block too. Everything else should be about equal. There are some other problems with mopar engine too; if you run in to problems the parts are harder to obtain. With a chevy there are a zillion others in the race with similar drivetrain and you can possibly loan some parts to continue. About the only 'sence' in a mopar engine is that it's a mopar. It will make your car unique. Are you willing to pay more for that, that's your choice. I would.

[moeflo]

Once, you go past the low 400 cfm range(B-1, and "replacement" BBC heads) The prices will shoot up.
big Chiefs/Sonny's heads etc.) Building a big motor (4.84" B.C's) a chevy will win out, in dollars. However, you can build a 4.9" ford, cheaper than a 4.9" chevy, with ford motorsport stuff. Just depends, where you want to go.
While I really like the Brewer heads, as Dart said, it's not the most cost effective method, for getting in that range. You can buy used Alky-hemi stuff(BAE) that will easily take you past 500 cfm. 'Course they are mostly solid. Early Stage V nitro heads, can go over 500 cfm, also, with water jackets. They can be purchased, used, with the hardware, for much less than $7K.

[FuryusVIP]

have you guy's dealt with Indy or Koffel's? My experince with them was less than enjoyable. Not returning phone calls, less than acurate information, slow shipping, and not so friendly at times... Maybe it's me, but that doesn't make for repeat customers. As far as the Hemi, my 'research' has lead me to believe that a wedge head will perform better in my intended RPM range. Besides, as soon as most folks see a Hemi under the hood, all bets are off. When I talked to Fred Brewer, he was the nicest guy... HE called my engine shop, from his cell phone, and gave runner size, port size, and chamber specs, along with flow numbers from his CNC ports work and ideal engine sizes that work with his stuff... Fred is in WA and I'm in Chicago. Try getting that kind of customer service with the other guys. His willingness to talk and share information about his product, on his dime, has giving me no other choice but to use his stuff for my Mega Mopar build up.

On a side note, my sport should be back in the garage next week and then I can make time to upgrade my website, that has been neglected for some time, now that I'm back on track. Also looking for someone to make a hood for my Sport out a 'glass... Anyone?

[moeflo]

Point well taken.. The guy whose mortgage, you're paying, should, at least, pretend to give a damn. I saw some brewer prototypes, years back. A wonderful head.
I liked them, alot better than b-1's.
Only, time I spoke with Koffells, I found Scott to be fine. Dave sounding like he was reading, pre-prepared answers, from a sheet. Never spoke to Indy. On possibility of a, still, less expensive head, you could talk with Brodix, as I've found them to bee pretty cool. TS stuff, may not be unreasonable, now. I don't know. Though, I don't think any established "big" company, will come close to your experience, with Brewer
However, I'm sure the new-style hemi heads, like the stageV raised port, would be great on a motor, like yours. Their ports, are smaller, per their flow, than you'll find on any wedge head. Maybe not unbeatable, at peak-lift, but, a far as a flow curve, a wedge won't flow through the range, as well. And that's any wedge. Flowed many different types, done by many different people. This is not an opinion, it's a medical fact.
But, I also know what you mean about "all bets being off". Alot of people talk trash about them being "yesterdays news" but if you're car runs good, you'll hear, "It oughta run, it's a damn hemi"
good luck.

[JCFcuda]

Furyus if you deside on those brewer heads please post how they work out .
I saw Brewer 4 valve Hemi heads at the Mopar Nat.1999 I was wondering if anybody is runing them?