Aluminum 440 RB questions...?

[novicius]

<dd>Here are the details off of the <a href="http://www.performanceparts.mopar.com/">Mopar Performance Parts</a> page:

<dd>


<dd>Aluminum Big Blocks (Gasoline)

<dd>Mopar Performance Parts aluminum blocks for the "B","RB", and Hemi engines feature the following:

• Aluminum construction that is much lighter than the original CI versions

• Original machining duplicated for use with the production starter and water pump

• Sleeves are dry with a short standard water jacket

• Designed for gasoline usage only (Not to be used with nitromethane)

• All blocks include sleeves and all the necessary hardware

• Main journals are machined for the use of "RB" and Hemi bearings and crankshaft


<dd>What can people tell me about these mills (P4452968) from Mopar Performance? This seems like a great way to do a lightweight big-block build-up, yet I haven't read of anyone (except pro drag racers) using them. What am I missing?

<dd>Ok, true the cost is rather prohibitive, for starters: the bare block is in the $4,000+ neighborhood -- put a pair of Indy SR's on there and that's close to, what, $7K in just those parts, without even looking at internals. I can imagine that a high-dollar aluminum 440 can easily run $12-15K.

<dd>But still, what about streetability? Reliability? Weight savings? Would these blocks hold up to a street/strip, highway cruising/bracket racing, 60,000+ mile usage? Inquiring minds want to know...

<dd>- novicius -


[This message has been edited by novicius (edited June 21, 2

[novicius]

<dd>Anyone...? (Faintly, the chirping of crickets are heard.)

<dd>- novicius -

[novicius]

<dd>Thanks for the first response, Ram.

<dd>I'm curious about the aluminum 440 because of weight concerns, but not because of acceleration (strip) as much as handling (autox).

<dd>(Ducks as the flames start to fly...)

<dd>See, I know this is more twisted than sleeping with my sister (so to speak), but I'd really like to go road racing with a big-block Mopar. My goal with my Barracuda is to eventually compete in the One Lap of America, and for that you need lots of horse and yet be able to handle and turn very quickly. True, a small-block would be smarter, easier, etc., but I'd like to try using a big-block for the task; ergo, my questions on the MP aluminum 440.

<dd>So, can the new blocks be built with streetability in mind, reliability, and gobs of horsepower on pump gas? She'd be mounted in front of a beefed A727 tranny with a Gear Vendors' overdrive unit mounted on the tailshaft, and hooked to a touch taller rear-end (2.94 or 3.23's). Any ideas, comments, parlor tricks...?

<dd>- novicius -

[Brian_wo]

They make an aluminum B block? I didn't know that is it cheaper than the Indy max block? that thing is nuts.

[DusterDave]

If I ever hit the Lottery, I'd buy the Indy Maxx aluminum block. It's a much better piece. The main caps are huge! Strong enough for over 2,000 horsepower!

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www.mindspring.com/~dusterdave

[Brian_wo]

yeah but thats just it Dave,you would need to hit the lottery,when they were first about to come out they said they would be about $3200,now just a month back I was thinking of buying one untill I found out they were over $4000 now but the iron version is $1700,to bad it's sooo heavy.

[TL]

The only complaints are the price and maybe the small main journals would be better. Tell you what. Loan me the $4000 and as collateral we'll put it in your car . Don't worry, I'll be carefull. And your car will have the reputation of a great launching car.

[DusterDave]

Brian, that 4 grand 'burning a hole in your pocket' would be better spent on a back-halving job. Your car will REALLY be known as a great launcher!

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www.mindspring.com/~dusterdave

[Brian_wo]

Originally posted by DusterDave:
Brian, that 4 grand 'burning a hole in your pocket' would be better spent on a back-halving job. Your car will REALLY be known as a great launcher!

You misunderstand me I don't have $4000 to blow but if I did I would be thrilled to back half or buy that block,oh well maybe later.
What i really need to do is get started building my new garage so I have a place to work on my stuff in the winter while I'm laid off.

[ChristianCuda]

Brian I think the AL block from MP is under $4000.
Imagine it a complete aluminum 451 storker all built to the hilt. Imagine the torque and weight ratio that would give my 68 Cuda.

Christian


------------------
68 'Cuda 383 Formula S recreation
Working on adding EFI
69 'Cuda Race Parts Car
76 Duster 273 recent transplant
95 Neon 2.0 SOHC best of 16.96
84 Dodge Ram D50 transplanting 360

[novicius]

<dd>Hey all, great info, thanks for contributing!

<dd>How much do you think/expect your 'Cuda to weigh, Christian? I'd be happy to get my E-body to under 3,300 lbs.

<dd>Still, we don't have much info on the cost and streetability of the new AL MP big-blocks. I think I might have to make a phone call...

<dd>- novicius -

[This message has been edited by novicius (edited June 26, 2000).]

[ChristianCuda]

I think we both need to make some phone calls.

I am looking for 3000 even or less in full street trim including the spare tire and back seat.

If I have to install the cage that may go up a little bit.

Christian

------------------
68 'Cuda 383 Formula S recreation
Working on adding EFI
69 'Cuda Race Parts Car
76 Duster 273 recent transplant
95 Neon 2.0 SOHC best of 16.96
84 Dodge Ram D50 transplanting 360

[novicius]

<dd>Right under 3,000lbs. in an E-body, Ram? Excellent, that gives me a few pounds to work with under the "cap", so to speak...

<dd>- novicius -

[Beeracuda]

Our '74 Barracuda weighs 2825 with the driver, ready to race. It has been backhalved with ladder bars, coilovers and a 10 point cage. We have a fiberglass front-end, doors, deck lid and rear bumper. We run dual batteries and a 5 gallon fuel cell in the trunk. We also have lexan all the way around. We also run a powerglide with an 8" convertor, no alternator and a VW Scirroco radiatior. If I had bought the right wheels, I could have cut the rearend by at least 8 more inches.

The aluminum block should cut the weight by at least 150 lbs. We can't justify the expense right now. We are looking at Wilwood brakes (about 30 lbs) and aluminum heads (also about 30 lbs). The brakes would probably shift more weight to the rear (which is what we desparately need) than the heads. And they are also a LOT cheaper. I can see the NINES from here!

Monty



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Monty Brown
74 Barracuda
446 / PG
10.14 /134

[novicius]

<dd>Damn, Beer, I take it she's not street-legal?

<dd>I'd like to make these minimums:

<dd>- Under 3,300lbs. with full interior, backseat and 20 gln racing tank.

<dd>- 1/4 mile times in the low 11's, with high 10's possible (with slicks).

<dd>- Fantasy motor: streetable, reasonable compression (below 10:1?), reliable (reliable in the sense that the AL block won't warp or twist over 30-60K miles of daily use).

<dd>Hey, I can dream, can't I?!

<dd>- novicius -

[novicius]

<dd>Sounds good, Ram; like I said, it's not necessarily trying to be the baddest boy on the block, but instead meet certain measurables.

<dd>By building a powerful, ballpark 590+ horse pump-gas mill, yet "settling" for 11's in the quarter, I think I can sacrifice some of the straight-line performance and try to build the car to corner well and accelerate at speed, too.

<dd>A One Lap car. Man, that's a lot to bite off with my first serious street machine...

<dd>- novicius -

[Marc]

Novicius - I like the attitude. Big incher, mild, drive,drive,drive. I like the Indy Maxx block and any variation of the Indy heads. It ain't cheap, but nothing to do with cars is anymore.

------------------
Tubbed 40 Plymouth Coupe
Tubbed 71 Demon
1989 Shelby Lancer
1978 BB ClubCab
1973 Scamper 440 MHome

[montrose ram]

I feel like I'm always the fly in the ointment guy but does anyone know how streetable these siamesed bore-Iron or alluminum are? Cooling wise? If my proverbial ship ever came in it would be a 572 INDY MAXX Alluminum block and Stage IV Engineering HEMI heads dialed like you'd like it Christion,Novicus--for the street AND back-halved AND a street Lenco 5 speed!! OH yeah, did I mention the 8-71 Blower? But, seriously, I'd appreciate anybodies imput regarding cooling the siamesed bore for cruising.

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I love your combo Beeracuda- I mean besides the Brewskies + Dragracing--What gear/rearend are you running and what size wheel/tire? Also I'd like to see a pic of your car---hey I think we all would!!!


[This message has been edited by montrose ram (edited June 28, 2000).]

[Molloy]

I have run the MP siamese bore with Indy 440-1 heads on the street. For cooling I use a Be Cool radiator, MP alum housing and H2O pump, flex fan (no shroud) and elec pusher fan), and water wetter. It stays cool in 95F+ Tex summers, Water wetter made a big difference. With 180F thermostat it rarely went over 190F at long idle and oil stayed at ~200F. Heads off at 3000 miles with no signs of hot spots. I did fry my rod bearings (which is why it's apart), but that's another long, sad story.

When I make a shroud that fits the Be Cool radiator, I will chuck the elec pusher fan in the firelace.

[Beeracuda]

montrose,

We run a 4.86 pro gear in a 742 housing 8 3/4". The housing has a backbrace made out of 1/4" plate in a ---+---. We run 14.5W x 32" Phoenix tires on 15" x 14" wheels.

My partner, our driver and I are all homebrewers. The Beeracuda and Jerry (the driver) have been featured in the 1996 Special Edition of Zymurgy. Zymurgy is the monthly magazine of the American Homebrewers Association. It also had my recipie for Hot Rod Ale.

Here's a link to a picture of the car. http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewP...628&p=19740151
It's about 2 years old. I need to get a new one scanned.

Monty

------------------
Monty Brown
74 Barracuda
446 / PG
10.14 /134

[novicius]

<dd><img src="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=509728&a=3734628&p=19740151&Sequence=1" alt="LS-what? I thought you said less one...?!">

<dd>The Beeracuda!

<dd>Schweet!

<dd>What's the biggest hurdle you find to going faster, Beer: traction or power? I would assume traction...?

<dd>Also, thanks for bring back the reliability/streetability question, Montrose; what is the story with the AL MP RB-blocks? Can they take daily driving/strip/autox beating over time?

<dd>

<dd>- novicius -


[This message has been edited by novicius (edited June 28, 2000).]

[BigBlockDuster]

Hey montrose-
I spoke with Mopar a few weeks ago, with the same question bout the siamese cast iron block that is used on crate motor. The tech told me as long as i wasnt pulling a big trailer uphill in 100 degree weather for 50 miles i wont have a problem, in my Duster that is. So much for hearsay though. Well i can tell ya in about 4 months cus im purchasing 1 in august.

Later,

BBD

[Beeracuda]

Traction is definitely our biggest problem. We had a 1.46 60' last week and ran a 10.14 (best ET to date). Our normal 60' is 1.40-1.42.

This weekend I won't have to worry about traction, though. We're Drag Boat Racing! I crew on a Pro Eliminator Hydro that has had a best ET of 7.89! We got at least 5 Top Fuel Hydro's that are gonna be here. Last year, the ran as fast as 232 mph! That's flying on water.

------------------
Monty Brown
74 Barracuda
446 / PG
10.14 /134

[This message has been edited by Beeracuda (edited June 29, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Beeracuda (edited June 29, 2000).]

[Beeracuda]

The speeds aren't double. We run about 145 mph with a 996 hp Aluminum Merlin in a fairly light hull with a 2-speed Lenco. I'd like to see what it would run on land. The fuelers are running basically the same engine as the land based counterparts and they are running 225-230 at a low 5 second ET. The Alcohol Hydros run about the same mph, just a slower ET.

I still go to Dragraceresults, but it depends on how busy it gets around here.

Monty

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Monty Brown
74 Barracuda
446 / PG
10.14 /134

[montrose ram]

Thanks Novicius,Monty Beercuda
pic-Yesss!! Good to hear MEGA-Block
can be cooled for street. Alotta guys
are gonna want those 500" crate
motors! I tried to get one last summer
when they were supposed to be released
but gave up the wait and bought a
fresh built .030 over 440 w/B1-BS
heads, etc., instead. BUT I am having
some problems keeping my 'water' block
cool! Molloy--What is a water wetter?
Forgive me for my ignorance. I've also
got a Be Cool radiator, MP
alum.housing, Milodon pump, MPviscous
fan and March power
pulleys(160'Milodon Hi-flow
thermo.)Car wants to run between
190-195 cruising on 80'day and idle
over 200 degrees. I dont have a
shroud-they claim stock can be
adapted--true? I've been told clutch
fans are not a good idea---true? Any
advice? Car is not a daily driver but
it should run cooler than this, right?


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Molloy- I found the Red Line WaterWetter. Will try that and shroud w/my thermo-clutch fan and reduce anti-freeze to 20%. Hopefully that will at least=your Texas results.

[This message has been edited by montrose ram (edited July 05, 2000).]

[23T-Wedge]

Novicius;

Don't know if you are still looking at the possibility of using the aluminum wedge block. You may already be aware, but those blocks are made for Mopar by Keith Black and the last time I priced the hi-deck was around $4250 and Lo-deck $4450. As best I can tell they are based on the old Stage 3 (KB Hemi Stage 3, not max-wedge Stage III) design and though they say they are not intended for nitro they would probably stand up to any alky or nitrous set-up. The low-deck had the large RB main journals and is about 15lbs. lighter than the hi-deck which weighs about 130lbs. If nothing else it would be worth a phone call to KB and talk to them about the streetability of the block since they are the actual manufacturer. My biggest concern would be water sealing around the bottom of the sleeves because of the different expansion rates of the block and the sleeves, but that's only because I had that problem with an old Milodon Hemi block and it may not be a problem with the KB block. As far as the strength of the block, I'd say it would be a toss-up with the Indy block. I've dealt with KB and Indy both in the past and have always had good dealings with KB. Another minor consideration to think about: Who has been building aluminum blocks the longest???

[novicius]

<dd>Thanks, 23T, I will do that. I know that the blocks are expensive, but then, speed is just a question of money...

<dd>- novicius -


[This message has been edited by novicius (edited July 06, 2000).]

[Brian_wo]

so looking in the MP book it does not look like the low deck block is a 4 bolt,wonder how much HP they will handle?

[TL]

Call Muscle Motors

[novicius]

<dd>Well, I wrote to the Keith Black Sales team and here is my response.

<dd><u>My letter:</u>

<dd>Howdy,

<dd>I'm interested in the aluminum KB Chrysler 440 Wedge block for my particular project car -- a street/strip/autox big-block 1971 Plymouth Barracuda. She has a standard cast iron 440RB now, and while I know I could save some weight with the Indy SR heads, the idea of going with an all-aluminum wedge has me intrigued and *very* interested.

<dd>I'm looking for streetable power in the 600 horse range, on pump gas. The application is primarily street/strip, with some autocrossing thrown in (I like the idea of road-racing with a big-block simply because people tell me that's not the way to do it, it won't work, you won't be competitive, etc).

<dd>But truly, how streetable are your blocks? Can they handle day-to-day driving, in addition to competition? Basically, 60-degree and hotter daily driving duties, some strip-time, some autox, and then be fine to motor home in? Or what about highway driving time to shows? What sort of warranty do you provide?

<dd>I'm not the one who is building the motor (Performance Head Service in Madison, WI is), but I am just curious on the blocks day-to-day reliability and service. Other than that, you have a great site!

<dd>Thanks for your time.


<dd><u>Their reply:</u>

<dd>The Keith Black 440 - 426 Street HEMI cylinder block was made for the type of use you are asking about. The blocks are a dry liner water jacketed block designed to circulate water. We have sold many of these blocks for use in street rods and stock bodied cars for both street and strip applications. This same style of block, except in a low deck "383 style", was used in a super modified oval track car with no engine or block problems. This particular set up used 15:1 compression ratio with alcohol for fuel. The car was very competitive in its short lived career. In a race at Phoenix, the Copper Classic, the car got into some traffic in turn one and ended up in the wall. The car was destroyed and the driver was seriously hurt. He was lucky to escape with his life. The engine, unlike the car or the driver, was not damaged. The 440 - 426 Street HEMI blocks are cast with the same alloy that we use in our Top Fuel Drag Racing blocks. All of the blocks we manufacture must pass the same quality inspections to be accepted for machining.

<dd>The only things that are different about our KB Chrysler street blocks as compared to the factory iron blocks are:

<dd>You must use a remote oil pick-up in the pan. There is no provision for an internal oil pick-up that attaches to the block. We manufacture a cast ultra pump with dual pick-up lines for this purpose. The pump mounts to the block in the same place as the stock oil pump.

<dd>The motor mounts on these blocks use the early style 3 bolt HEMI type with the left or driver side top bolt slightly lowered. We can provide specifications for these holes. The blocks do not have the later style wedge mounts.

<dd>We do not machine for the stock fuel pump. All the blocks we have sold have been set up for use with electric fuel pumps.

<dd>The blocks can be ordered for use with hydraulic lifters at an additional charge of $255.00.

<dd>At this time the price for the 440 KB cylinder blocks are $4,690.00. If you need hydraulic oiling $4,945.00. All blocks come with, head studs - nuts - washers, cam bearings installed and fitted, main caps installed and mainline race ready finished, sleeves installed and finished honed with torque plates to your specified bore size, lifter bores finish sized, dual side bolts for the three center main caps available at no extra charge.

<dd>If you have any other questions please E-mail again. Thank you for visiting our Web-site.

<dd>Sales at Keith Black Racing Engines Inc.

<dd>Sounds good to me.

<dd>- novicius -