383/431 vs. 400/451 stroker

[Greer Westover]

I purchased a 1968 Dodge car (same as New Yorker, forgot the name) and was hoping to find a 440 under its hood, however it's a 383 in pretty good running shape. (I bought it sight unseen in hopes of building a stroker motor for a non-mopar vehicle.) Would I be ahead to trade/sell the 383 and look for a 400, or do I have better heads and other parts on the 383? I know the valve seats will need replaced in the high compression 383 if they are original, and the 400 might already have hardened seats? What are your ideas?

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Jagguy

[DartGT66]

I would find a 400. The parts are easier to obtain, you have a choice of off the self pistons and you can build it with less money. And you'll get 20 cu in more + a larger bore for better breathing.

[Thunderhead]

Dartgt66 has a point about the parts availability, but I still like the 383 better. I know all 383s came with a forged crank and rods. 400s all had cast cranks but later versions had the hardened vave seats for unleaded fuel. It's just a matter of what you really want to do. I just think a lot of people overlook the 383 engine as a serious racing engine. Sentimental feelings I guess. My first BB Mopar was 70 RR with the 383...DAMN I miss that car! Cops got it, long story ) I must go find my blanky now.
Thunderhead

[440 Jim]

Originally posted by Thunderhead:
I still like the 383 better. I know all 383s came with a forged crank and rods. 400s all had cast cranks
Thunderhead

Nothing against the 383, but a stroker engine would most likely use a 440 crank, so the cast vs. forged crank of the 383 vs 400 is not a concern.

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440 Jim
E-Body Fish

[Brian_wo]

well I have one of each and have less money in the 431 than the 450 but thats only because I got a good deal on the pistons but if a guy had to buy new he would be better off doing the 400 stroker route.

[Thunderhead]

440Jim, Brian_wo, you are correct. I'm sorry. I'm just venting. I was just comparing the 383 and 400 as stock, non strokers. It seems that the 383 (non stroked) gets no respect. Just whining!
Thunderhead

[DartGT66]

Brian, I was thinking one step ahead; if you have to replace a piston someday, it's nic that you can get those off the self. Custom pistons are more expensive and you usually have to buy a minimum of four of them at a time.

[Brian_wo]

Originally posted by Thunderhead:
It seems that the 383 (non stroked) gets no respect. Just whining!
Thunderhead

I am a huge fan of the 383 in street cars,they run almost as fast as the 440 and get better milage,I have owned by far many more 383's than 440's but now I have gotten bitten by the stroker bug and have no use for 440's,other than their cranks.

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[kingjr]

I am in a similiar situation. I purchased a 1971 Challenger R/T w/383. I will be rebuilding the motor and I'm thinking of a stroker. What is the best ci to build? Is the 451 a good choice? What can I expect to spend? I may consider a 426 crate hemi but I'm not sure if I want to spend that much. It will be for street/strip, but mostly street/car shows. I just started my research so any help is greatly appreciated. <><

Originally posted by Greer Westover:
I purchased a 1968 Dodge car (same as New Yorker, forgot the name) and was hoping to find a 440 under its hood, however it's a 383 in pretty good running shape. (I bought it sight unseen in hopes of building a stroker motor for a non-mopar vehicle.) Would I be ahead to trade/sell the 383 and look for a 400, or do I have better heads and other parts on the 383? I know the valve seats will need replaced in the high compression 383 if they are original, and the 400 might already have hardened seats? What are your ideas?

[Brian_wo]

I just spent $3k on a 450 but thats everything down to the carb and headers.

You could look at a few of the pictures here.
http://www.geocities.com/wo23dodge/truck/

[451Mopar]

My Charger came with the 383 which I rebuilt pretty mildly, 9:1 compression, ported '906 heads, a mild Crower cam, headers, intake, etc. The engine was OK and faster than several 440, but kind of weak on the low end ( It really needed more compression and a higher stall converter.)

I built a 451 stroker for my '69 Coronet R/T which is still yet to be done (long story about getting married, buying a house, etc.)
Anyhow, the 451 swaped out the 383 in the Charger and what a difference! Tons of torque now (heck, it will smoke the 11.5" wide MT Street ET tires if I launch over 1,500 RPM!)

In honisty, the 451 is suped-up with aluminum heads (B-1 B/S), 11:1 compression, and a mild roller cam.

[440 Jim]

Originally posted by Brian_wo:
I just spent $3k on a 450 but thats everything down to the carb and headers.

Not bad. I spent alot on my 440 doing everything. $1200 machine work, $700 heads, $1900 parts (includes $550 Arias pistons), plus $400 carb, $190 M1 intake, that makes a whoping $4390! Nice job though...

[kingjr]

Did you guys dyno any of those motors?

Originally posted by 440 Jim:
Not bad. I spent alot on my 440 doing everything. $1200 machine work, $700 heads, $1900 parts (includes $550 Arias pistons), plus $400 carb, $190 M1 intake, that makes a whoping $4390! Nice job though...

[Brian_wo]

Originally posted by 440 Jim:
Not bad. I spent alot on my 440 doing everything. $1200 machine work, $700 heads, $1900 parts (includes $550 Arias pistons), plus $400 carb, $190 M1 intake, that makes a whoping $4390! Nice job though...

If I can ever find where I put my receipt I was going to scan it,it's from the machine shop and gives a complete run down of all the parts and costs of everything,I spent $2400 there and then $600 or less on the rest,it's still a lot of money for a truck motor but I went fishing today and towed the boat for the first time with the new motor and what a diff,almost don't even notice it back there now,its a heavy boat and with the 318 I was at WOT a lot of times to get up to speed but today I never hit anywhere near half throttle and it was running with and passing the rest of the traffic,even the ones who changes lanes to get around me at lights because they thought the truck pulling the boat would be slow

Oh and passing on the interstate is unreal now,half throttle gets you around and up to about 80 before you realize it

[DartGT66]

Just returned from the track with our family sedan, a '451' equipped '73 Valiant 4 D. It's got Stage VI heads, a street roller cam and 3.91 gears and was run with DOT tires and pump gas. It run a best of 10.566/129.7 mph, which I consider pretty good since the engine is already six years old. If you want to take a peak at the 'sleper' there is a picture of the car in http://www.tqhq.ee/misc/events/kiikala.htm scroll down the page until you se a blue 4 D Valiant, and that's it.

[This message has been edited by DartGT66 (edited September 11, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by DartGT66 (edited September 11, 2000).]

[451Mopar]

$3k is really good, did you use the KB pistons or some Forged pistons?

I went overboard with my 451.
The Stage 1 Ported B-1 B/S heads complete with valves, springs, retainers, pushrods, head stud kit and sparkplugs ($4/each for champion C63YC sparkplugs!) Also, got the aluminum 1.6:1 roller rockers all from Koffels Place for right at $3,000.

The stroker shortblock was built by Muscle Motors with "race" machining (aligh honed mains, 1/2" oil pickup, decked, honed with torque plates, etc.), custom dished 11:1 Ross pistons, ARP main studs and rod bolts. I also got the ultradune roller cam and lifters from them and they installed it with a double roller timming chain and cam button.
This came to right at $3,500 with shipping and block core charge.

I added the M1-single plane (about $200) which needed 0.100" milled off each side to mate up (add another $100 for machining.) The oil system is Milodon low profile pan and 1/2" pickup. Stock wingade tray, Melling HV oil pump, MP bronze oil pump drive. Probbly another $300.
The 2" Hooker Super Comp headers were $375, the Holley 1,000 CFM pro-series carb was about $450, the Mallory 250GPH fule pump $225, 500 GHP filter $100, Regulator about $40? Several hundred more for braided steel lines and AN fittings and the Aluminum 20 Gallon fuel cell.
The engine also has an aluminum Mopar waterpump and pump housing, maybe $250?
The ignition system, a unilite truggering a MSD 6AL with Crane PS91 coil and jacobs wires probbly added close to $500?
Did I mention the ARP stainless steel accessory bolt kit too, about $100.

Add the 3.5" exhaust system, about $400
And the SFI ballancer, flexplate, and Dynamic converter, probbly $700 or so?

As you can see the only original factory part on the engine is the block, crank and rods.

Yikes! That's over $10,000! ($10,240)
Shoot that dosen't even get into the axle and wheels/tires!

[JoeD]

So what kind of power does that $10,000 motor make?

[451Mopar]

I really am not sure, but here is the performance:
Car - 1971 Charger 500 Street Car that is not really set-up for drag racing. Has full interior, no roll bar or subframe connectors, the 0.960" T-Bars, front/rear sway bars, large front tires (255x60x15) and Micky Thompson Street ET 11.5x26 rear tires. 3.91:1 gears, 10" Dynamic converter.
Weight - #4,150 with me driving and 1/2 tank of gas.
Altitude - About 6,000 ft?, at Bandimere speedway in Morrison Colorado.
Weather - Hot, about 80 to 90 degrees.
Engine - about 180 degrees

60' times are about 1.86 seconds (I can't leave over 1,500 rpm or the tires go up in smoke.)
1/4 mile times are normally 12.6 and pretty consistent, it dosen't change much with the weather. Someone said I may be running lean?
My best 1/4 mile was a 12.4.
My 1/4 MPH is almost alaways 110 MPH with in +/- 0.5 MPH.

The car actually makes a decent bracket car, now if I could just drive better
I did manage to get a trophy this year at the Mopar Meet at Bandimere for making the qarter finals before my transmission went out

Oops, forgot to mention the cam is fairly mild (lots of torque!) advertised 284 duration @ 0.020", the 0.050" duration is 251. Valve lift with the 1.6:1 (1.58:1 actual ratio) rockers is about 0.613" (probbly less than 0.600" with valve lash.)
I shift at only 6,200 RPM (I think either the cam or stock M1 intake are limiting top end.)
And it runs fine on 91 Octane Junk gas.
I have gotten 10+ MPG (no vacuum advance on distrubitor) highway driving to and from Pueblo (about 100 miles each way.) The car is alaways driven where ever it goes, mainly because I don't own a car trailer.

Anyhow, I'm sure in a real race car at lower altitude, the engine should run 10's pretty easy.




[This message has been edited by 451Mopar (edited September 13, 2000).]