TIMING SHENANIGANS

hope somebody knows something.specs are below
originally set timing to 12d, running hot all the time. One day at a steady 4500RPM it started backfiring, limped it home. Checked the timing and it was up to 30d initial!!!!
LOOSENED distributor and reset to 15d, runs ok but not quite the snap of before. Still running hot. Switch to 26" radiator w/new MP clutch fan, remoted tranny to oil cooler only, high flow thermostat, 16lb cap. still gets hot but it takes a little longer. motor turns the tires but sounds like it is hesitating or missing under full throttle. is it the distributor, cam degree, balancer slipped, timing chain or what??? If it really is timing is it affecting the heat? or is it way to lean? need more info let me know. love this place
383 - 6pak - MP 474d cam, straight up - stock replacement pistons -
MP ignition/chrome box - headers- 3.91 rear

[morpower]

what do the plugs look like white???

[DAVE JONES]

I'm not as smart as alot of these guys and I would definantly try their suggestions. What I would like to recommend is fairly simple and a vary fast check. I just had a problem with my timing moving all over the place so I'll tell you what happened to me. After verifying that my balancer didnt spin, I took off the timing cover, the chain was fine, marks lined up, redegreed my cam and found it was dead on, scratched my head. put it back together, fired it up, timing changed again, scratched my head. Upon closer inspection of the rotor I noticed some play. Then I noticed that there was alot of play!. Turns out that my intermediate shaft and bushing were both shot.....big time. If I was awake when I had the timing light on the mark one of my 200 previous times I should have noticed that my mark would kind of wander around. replaced both of these and everything ran great again since it wasnt changing 15 deg whenever it wanted to. I'm not the smartest person around but thats why I read these articles. Another question that I have is when you noticed your "initial advance jumped" to 30 deg, was your total advance proportunenty up also? My 2 cents here is that if its not then that may indicate an internal problem with the dist. I would then take the dist out, remove the top portion of the dist and look at the mechanical advance. Look for broken or dislogged springs and while your there look down at the slots where the pins ride in the slots. sometimes this area can stick if there is corrosion in this area. By holding the lower part of the shaft and turning the upper you will see the pins move back and forth within the slots. this activates the mechanical advance. Most distributors have a total movement within these slots of around 20-24 deg of advance. If there is any crap in there or it sticks It WILL play hell and affect your initial and or your full mechanical movement. The bottom line is that it must be smooth and clean in there so you get repetability throughout the range. This whole procedure may take you a total of 1 hour and that would only be on a saturday night after 45 beers. This quick procedure would have saved me hours of headaches and its a real good place to start to remove the variables. Note...this was the first and only time I have ever been inside a distribuor and it was incredibly easy. ....thats just my 2 cents though.....let us know what you find...DAVE

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[mauve66]

changed my user name to blend in better. thanks for the replys.
Plugs are real pale tan to white.
After inital jumped to 30d i didn't check the total with vacuum becuase of the bad miss but the timing flash on the damper was steady. using a good Sears light with dial advance.
i put the car together changing cam and blending intake and heads but anything internal confuses me. the way you described the distributor it sounds like i won't mess it up to bad.
before i changed the cam and moved here from the midwest i never had a hiccup at all and it was my everyday car. now i haven't had it out for 6 months!!!

[mauve66]

sorry it took so long to get back. i pulled the cap and rotor off. the rest of these terms i'm guessing at but those of you that are familiar with the distributor will know. the "reluctor", round deal with ridges, had half of the ridges worn down/ chewed up. the "magnetic pick-up" was the same and the opposite side had lots of metal shavings. When i pulled the reluctor i found a 1/2 inch long roller/pin that was stuck to the pick-up(maybe because its magnetic). The plate directly under the reluctor will slide back and forth with slight pressure but i can see that doing so puts the pick-up into direct contact with the reluctor. this plate has a screw holding it to the next plate it looks like. Dave Jones said that there were springs in there so i wanted to double check before i pulled it off and things went flying

[mauve66]

Didn' know that replys were limited on space. Guess they have to be with dummies like me takeing up so much space. even with all of these problems it still will turn the tires even though it is VERY hard to start . maybe what i described is part of that problem, hum, ya' think Vern????? haha

[Christopher]

The 1/2 roll pin is there to keep the reluctor located on the shaft.You mentioned that the reluctor and mag pickup were chewed up.I'd replace these and set the gap with a non magnetic feeler gauge at .008.

[mauve66]

but what caused the problem Christopher???
I figured that they would have to be replaced but something went wrong for the ridges on the ruluctor to be wore all the way down on some of them. Ill try to take the top plate out today and hope i don't lose any pieces under there.

[mauve66]

ok, got the distr. out, only movement in shaft is up and down-1/8th inch, no side to side. The screw i saw was an adjustment for the pick-up, not very tight. Advance can was NOT hooked to the plates so i removed it next. Under the plates was only one spring(need 2 right?)and the bar with slides and pins above the springs only comes up 1/16th inch(has to come off to get to the springs, right?) After i get light weight springs(2 right?) how do you get the advance hooked back in? Only hole I found is in the top plate with the pick-up to move it in relation to the reluctor, right? since it wasn't hooked up thats probably why they got chewed, right? How did it come unhooked and how do I preventit again? this distr. has about 10k on it, shoudn't be to much, right?? this place is awsome, i'm learning more in the past month than i have in years

[mtrv8n]

hey, you're in luck.. i got a brand new boxed mp performance small block ignition setup..(don't ask how..)..but i'll sell it cheap! I got a brand new one in my cuda, and this is an extra. I figure I wont need it for ten years or so..I'll take half the lowest price you can find advertised. That should be about $80 net...it will certainly solve your problems!

[340king]

Typically the vacuum canister is pinched between the two plates and does not have enough room to come out. It is usually kind of a chore to get it out and in with the pickup plate loose. If you allow the pickup plate to rotate without a stop it will do like you have surmised and cause the maladies you have. To get the top portion of the distributer shaft off you have to remove the little felt piece under the rotor. Then remove the lock collar(small) around the inner shaft. Then the reluctor shaft should come off the end. Be careful pressing on the new reluctor. It is pretty easy to crack.

[mauve66]

thanks for the replys. 383, sorry i can't use the small block setup. there was no felt uner the rotor and the old reluctor slides on and off fairly easily. I can't see any difference where the top of the shaft would come out by itself and there is no collar to lock it. Are you describing a small block distributor?? Mine has two plates together as a set, the top one has the pickup and the bottom is screwed to the housing

[DAVE JONES]

My opinion at this point is "Its time to get intimate with your distributor". between missing and extra parts that you found, this thing needs major attention now. I just did my first distributor teardown and rebuild. Its not hard at all. The 2 pc assy your refering to slides around on 3 pins. this is normal. to dissassemble this look on the bottom of the assy. there is a small clip that you can easily see. this slides off. your assy then will come apart easily.
disassembly procedure that I did from start to total dissassembly.
1..remove felt wick and retaining clip.
2..gently remove relutor.
3..remove screws that hold assy to case.
4..carefully with a small flat blade screwdriver pry this assy open enough to remove the vac adv arm with the pin that is currently going into (between) the assy. remove vac adv totally from housing and assy.
5..at the base of the dist shaft on the bottom there is a roll pin. carefully remove this. make sure to support the shaft when doing this. when pin is out then there is a thin washer. remove this also.
6..you can now remove the dist shaft from the housing by holdng the dist casting and pulling up on it.
7..remove the (T) shape thing. your weights have pins going thru this T shape and this is what controls your mechanical advance.
8..time now to clean everything throughly. you can easily take apart the springs and weights now and replace anything that you wish.
9..reassemble this reversing this procedure.
make sure to lightly lube everything that rubs. I used white lith grease. Make sure that when you reassemble this to get all the parts that need replacing. if its hammered, dont use it!. when you put the reluctor back on make sure that the arrow on the reluctor is pointing cw. after assy hold onto the bottom of the dist shaft and turn the part with the rotor. this should move very freely. You will also want to check that there is very little play in the shaft to the bushing also. I waited till I rebuilt it to check for this because there was so much crud in there i didnt feel that I would be able to get a true reading.
This is what I did and found thru trial and error with no books or direction. This is a great site and these guys are the real pros. listen to them. IF ANY OF YOU EXPERIENCED GUYS OUT THERE READ THIS LET ME/US KNOW IF THIS IS NOT CORRECT OR THERE IS A BETTER WAY OR OTHER THINGS TO WATCH FOR....good luck......DAVE

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[MopART]

I've got a good MP electronic dist. for that 383. It's yours for $50.00 plus ship and it's only a year old.

[hemi-1]

Just one more suggestion. Have you checked your distributor/oil pump drive shaft and the block bushing it rides in? If they are worn enough, that could cause or contribute to your problem.

[DAVE JONES]

Hemi-1 is right. this is what also happened to me which I explained several posts ago. FYI, I forgot that you had a big block. the reluctor needs to turn ccw.

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[dart_gt_67]

I am also having the problem with the timing mark jumping around while I'm trying to time the engine. At TDC, the mark is deosn't jump around, but when I try to change the timing, the mark starts to get a little eratic. I set the timing to about 5* initial timing and drove around the block. When I got back, I checked it again and it was beyond 10* initial timing. I reset the timing to 5* and the same thing happened. I have another distrbutor (a dual point dist) is the basement. It worked perfectly when I took it out of the other motor. Should I use this instead? I am working with a 318. The dual point style dist is from a 273. Is this ok/recommended?

[mauve66]

OK, I finally got the parts and time to play with this. put the 2 new light springs on. The magnetic pick-up is riveted to the plate so I guess the new one I bought is a waste. I can't pry it off and re-rivet the new one, cleaned all of the metal shavings off the old one, hope it works. the new reluctor matches the old in every way but when i was ready to slide it onto the pin I noticed that the groove where the arrow is lines up perfectly with one of the outside ridges on the reluctor while the groove on the exact oppisate side of the reluctor doesn't line up. Is this a problem, does it matter which groove the pin goes in? The pin was out when I took the cap off the distributor.
My thinking is that one of the grooves will cause the initial timing to be off since they are not matched to the reluctor edges.
also there was a small piece of cardboard inside the box with the reluctor that was not part of the box, could this piece be what the non-magnetic gapper for the pick-up spacing? I haven't measured it but it seems to simple for Mother Mopar to put it in there for people like me. I appreciate everyone's patience with how long this is taking to get done

[mauve66]

still looking for an answer but think i'll go head and try to put it in anyway. there's a car show this weekend and i'd hate to drive the wife's Neon just to go see it.
On the bright side, I just realized today that my Omni- non-turbo , has a sure-grip. The guys at work were amazed to see those twin black marks in the parking lot. Have to get the Charger going before I try to power brake the Omni and break something!!

[mauve66]

BAD NEWS!! lined up the reluctor w/ the slot directly in line / the edge, double ckd the timing but it wouldn't fire, backfire or even try. pulled the coil wire and am getting very brite spark, pulled the plug w/wire attached and got very weak, almost couldn't see it in the dark, spark. Could the old magnetic pick-up be fried and not sending the spark to the plugs, Bosch Platinum, 10k miles?? Have Accel super stock coil/ 8.8mm wires at 20k miles, no visible cracks and i didn't get shocked holding the plug so i guess they are still good. Chrome box, 8k miles. Another point is that the ceramic resistor was so hot that i couldn't touch it, is this normal?, i've never touched one before. Any help would be appreciated

[This message has been edited by mauve66 (edited May 06, 2000).]

[DAVE JONES]

There will be no less that 1 billion opinions on what to do now. I'll give you my opinion. This wont take long and you need to get some of the variables out.
1....I've never seen or heard of a ballast that can cook an egg. sounds like a short of some kind. I cant help there except that I would grab the wiring inst and trace it thru. Look for wires touching or gounding out some place. Also, was this a problem before. I dont remember reading about it before so when you reinstall the wires they may be crossed somewhere or touching. You also may just have a bad ballest. usually they dont get hot when they go bad but who knows.
2....I would check more than one wire to see if this weak spark is only a local problem or if its all. if its only 1 or a few then I would check the wires for continuity and check the gap of the plugs. also Is there a new rotor and cap on. is the cap on securly and the dist raised notch lined up with the cap. did you gap the reluctor AND did you tighten all the screws down throughout the dist.
3....Besides this, If your timing is jumping its indicating something is moving (obviously), I brought up before on a lower post about mechanical play. look at this. there should be vary little. besides this how new is you timing chain. is it stretched out.
Like I said before there are alot of paths to follow. Personally when I trouble shoot I like to get rid of the easy and fast ones first just to eliminate the variables. then start to get into the time consuming ones.....good luck and keep us informed on what you are doing and find out...DAVE



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[mauve66]

dave, i never touched the ballast before so i don't know if it was hot before. I think the timing was moving before because of the loose mag. pick-up. tomrrow i'll check all of the wires and plugs like you said, if they do the same thing i'll switch out the resistor to see if it still gets hot. still hasn't fired since rebuilding the distributor, but i'm still using the old mag. pick-up. i thought of a bad cap or rotor so i ckd them for spark while off the distributor, got the !@#$$#@ shocked out of me for holding them up in the air and cranking the motor - very brite spark from coil wire through center of cap out to edge of rotor, so there good right??

[mauve66]

bought a rivet gun and put the new pick-up on anyway,re-assmbled dist.,checked timing with screwdriver, #1 piston, and mark on damper, adjusted the drive gear so slot was parrellel to cam/crank just like the manual says, inserted dist., rotor on #1 wire and ----NOTHING, adjusted dist. for advance while cranking and ----- NOTHING
pulled dist. and rotated 180 deg. just in case it was the exhaust stroke and----NOTHING
Timing light flashes but not anywhere around the degree mark, it ran before i started this so i didn't think it was that far off.now i guess i'll pull the fan, water pump, alt,power steering and front cover to see if the crank and cam are even lined up or not.
chekd spark on all plugs and wires, its not reall brite like the coil wire but then it shouldn't be with the distance it travels on the wire, right??

[DAVE JONES]

not for nothing but by chance have you taken the valve cover off and truely made sure that number 1 is closed and on the top of the compression stroke and when it is, is the dampner mark lined up with zero on the timing cover. you may want to check this first since taking the front off requires alot more time. its up to you but I know that i would do this first before digging into the front end. As long as this is ok then make sure your number 1 wire on the cap sits right over the rotor where it should be touching. this should get you close. You may even want to check the play in your rotor to see if there is a little or alot......good luck . keep us posted...DAVE

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[mauve66]

maybe i should just call you on the phone when i get a brain cramp Dave, i forgot about the rocker movement. Now i'm three quarters of the way off with everything else.
the valve cover gaskets are leaking pretty bad so i guess i need to change them anyway...thanks, i'll get back to you

little boys wear bow-ties, flatheads are for nerds
Get Real - Get Mopar or GO HOME

[mauve66]

OK OK, since no one wants to buy it I'll try to fix it. Not even an offer, maybe no one likes 66 Chargers. Stripped everthing down to the short block. Old timing chain had 3/4 inch movement side to side, instead of the dots meeting each other in the middle they were both at the top of their respective sprocket, but they were in line with each other. Now I remember doing this two years ago when I put it together and thinking that wasn't quite right but wasn't sure why. Double checked with the new double roller that has absolutely no chain movement and it seems I had the cam 180 out and with that much retardation its no wonder it was always overheating. I don't think it should of ran as good as it did that far out of spec but THOSE ARE THE FACTS, unless I'm suffering from a severe case of brain freeze again. I set up the new chain with 2 degrees cam advance to get some torque early on to move this overweight beast and yes, this time the marks meet each other in the middle. It doesn't look like the valvetrain got bent from 1yr of driving this way so maybe all it'll cost me is the distributor that got chewed up even though I think that was a seperate incident. Putting in a new Dist/box since the old one got chewed so bad. Is there any way to check an ignition box to see if it is still good or just bolt it in and try it??? Thanks to DAVE JONES and everyone else for trying to help earlier in the year. Will keep you posted as I get time to play with it again

[Reddawgy]

LOL, when i saw that you now own a rivet gun i had to throw my 2 cents in. It sounds like we may have similar mechanical experience, mine is not at any pro level anywy. I know money is always an issue, but i saw a 1 yr old set-up for 50.00 and shipping. personally, if i planned on this being reliable transportation i'd just get a new or even upgraded system. You did get your moneys worth out of the old distributor right? : )
By the time i got everything i needed and bunch i didn't and finally got it right after hours of frustration, it ain't worth it, not for me anyway. Sure some things were made better years ago, but how much, and what has 10, 20 or 30 years done to the parts. Temperature variences over time play hell with metal. Just an opinion.