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  #1  
Old 07-02-2001, 02:22 PM
Blunderbus Blunderbus is offline
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Default "stock" car racing my arse

Well, let's see now...

Winston Cup racing doesn't use stock motors, doesn't use any stock pieces at all, not even windshields any more. And the cars...

Take a look:



I got to say, though, "stock" cars nor not, it's one hell of a good show every Sunday. And that's what counts I guess.

Good news is, Chrysler has announced that it's finished with "cab-forward.". The next-generation, rear-wheel drive, full-size Dodges and Chryslers will be long-hood, short-deck, retro-looking cars. May the street cars look more like the track cars!
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  #2  
Old 07-11-2001, 11:49 PM
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In your comparison photos, Marlins car looks more like a Taurus than a Dodge. Especially the roof line and rear window area. I wonder if the Intrepid was too slick for Nascar (or GM and Ford).
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  #3  
Old 07-12-2001, 09:05 AM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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There is a very real problem with Nascar front engine/rear drive rules, space. If you stuffed a V8 in the Intrepid the engine would be under the front windshield. And there was a real problem with the Intrepid top as well, if was very efficient, so efficient that no air would get to the rear spoiler. Those rear spoilers are very important to maintain front/rear downforce balance of the cars. No rear spoiler- constant loose condition, too much rear spoiler- constant tight condition. Nascar race cars try to maintain a balance of about 25% of total weight on each of the four wheels(under race speeds entering the corners). When the race cars are sitting still the weight distribution is about 52% front, 48% rear, 56% left side and 44% right side. They count on the rear spoiler, front nose and static weight placement to get them to 25% on each wheel when at racing speed. That's why you hear such a cry from the racers when Nascar changes the front nose height, rear spoiler height(or width) because it may take away an advantage of one brand and give it to another. Either way, the racers must start all over with the new dimensions to try to find that magic weight distribution for each track.
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  #4  
Old 07-12-2001, 04:31 PM
Blunderbus Blunderbus is offline
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The Dodge cup car doesn't look like any street car I've even seen (I don't think it looks like a street Taurus either. But it would be cool to find a photo of a side view of a Taurus so we could compare).

Sanborn, can you tell us anything more about the motors? Like, has Arrington been building any more Cup motors? Lately it seems like the motors have been holding together real well, both on restrictor-plate and unrestricted tracks.
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  #5  
Old 07-13-2001, 02:18 AM
Magnum440 Magnum440 is offline
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Default Taking Stock

I'm in agreement, my arse says"NOT"! But looking at it from NASCARs perspective, it's not their fault Detoit does'nt make American stock cars anymore. Detroit (and er--uh--Stuttgart) makes Japenese stock cars now! So as Darryl Waltrip calls 'em, these "Hot Rods", is what NASCAR has to let race!
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  #6  
Old 07-13-2001, 09:00 AM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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I don't think Arrington has built any more Cup engines other than the qualifying engine he leased to Petty for California.

After the initial block problems(cracking down the center main web) were solved by replacing with a heavier jacketed block, there have been very few structural engine problems. The few problems the Cup teams have had relate to frequency of component replacement. For example, after every race the rings, bearings, rocker adjusting screws, lifters, sometimes camshaft, springs are all replaced. After every two races the pistons, pushrods and valves are replaced, after four races the rods, crankshafts etc. Because this is a new design and there is not a lot of historical knowledge, some components have failed before schedule or maybe the teams have pushed some components beyond the schedule. this accounts for some of the problems.

The main engine problem has been due to the body design. Most of the teams have experienced heating problems due to using too much tape over the front air openings. Ideally, the teams want to tape oven all air openings to give maximum down force on the front(like in qualfying). They remove only the minimum amount of tape to cool the engine during the race. Some teams have taped up the front too much.

This tape business has to do with driver preference. For example, Marlin, Elliot and Blaney likes a freer(less tape) car; Burton, Atwood and Petty wants a very tight car(more tape). That explains how some run up front during the race, others don't. The teams are gradually getting it worked out with front nose design to give enough air to the engine and still give driver comfort but it takes a while.

I hope this explaination makes sense and helps.
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  #7  
Old 07-13-2001, 09:30 AM
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Well, I have already gotten a e-mail asking why some drivers like a tighter car than others. The simple answer is "I don't know". I always thought it was a produce of a drivers background; for example, former dirt drivers are accustomed to a constant loose condition-Martin, Schrader, Blaney, Elliot, Gordon, Labonte(both), Stewart, Wallace, etc. But then you have Marlin who to my knowledge has never driven a lap on dirt so I don't know the answer. I guess that's why some drivers like chocolate ice cream and others like vanilla, but then some like tooty fruity too!
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  #8  
Old 07-13-2001, 10:56 AM
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I think some influence might be the road conditions you get used to during daily driving. I was raised in snow country, so a loose condition was "normal" for about 6 months out of the year!

When I had the opportunity to drive a Cup car in the Richard Petty Driving Experience at TMS, the car had a slight push going into the corners and was slightly loose coming out. I was puckered pretty tight myself when the nose wanted to keep going up the track, but the rear end moving out didn't bother me at all. Years ago, I did some racing on homemade dirt tracks and you were loose the entire time! I feel like the drive wheels are something I can control, but hate the feeling of not being able to make the car turn when I want it to. It's like trying to turn on ice with the brakes locked...it doesn't work.

BTW, Sanborn, have you heard any more why Arrington is not building Cup engines? His CTS engines are the cream of the crop.
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  #9  
Old 07-14-2001, 10:24 AM
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Arrington is moving into a new, 50,000 sq. ft. facility in Martinsville. His former shop was actually his dad's old Grand National race shop. It was on about three different levels on the side of the mountain, dark, cramped and very rustic. I don't see how he operated efficiently at all. That he was able to produce as many engines as he did was remarkable.

When they get into the new facility, there will be a name change to Arrington Manufacturing. He will bring in house all the stuff he was contracting out; CNC cylinder heads(5 axis), CNC brackets and components, full machining capability from raw cast block/heads, full engineering of components(he has 3-4 mechanical engineers on staff), in addition to normal engine building capabilities. He will employ about 50-60 persons. I suspect you will see more Arrington engines out in Nascar in the future.

I understand that on property adjacent to Arrington's a school is being built by DC for training of racing personnel. Don't know any details other than that.
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  #10  
Old 07-14-2001, 11:27 AM
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Thanks for the update! I thought he had already moved into his new shop.

I hope the company doesn't get too big for him to keep control. Sometimes the guy who has the hands-on skills gets pulled away to handle the management side of things and the product goes to heck.

I wonder how Buddy is doing? He must be running out of Volkswagons to rebuild by this time! I imagine he's involved with Joey's new venture to some degree. It would be nice to see him attending the races to add some character to the boring, plastic corporate types that fill the tv screens.

Now we're even going to lose Dave Marcis. That will be the end of Grand National racing. I'd like to see Evernham merge with Marcis and put a 71 on the side of a red Dodge again. If I remember correctly, a K&K Dodge is the only thing Dave ever drove to the checkers.
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  #11  
Old 07-14-2001, 11:50 PM
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This is a side note

I did the petty cars at Las Vegas, and mine pushed too, but the reason they do that is because the cure for a push going in is to lift off the gas, and your average "joe" can do that. When I did the class I compensated for the push and was quickest in the class, I got kicked off, but thats another story.

Michael
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  #12  
Old 07-15-2001, 08:35 AM
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9Dodge...There was no way we could run faster than we did. The lead car held back in the straights and I could only run at 3/4 throttle. He let us go into the corners pretty hard, which surprised me, but as soon as we came out of the turn, he backed off. The speeds we ran were not exactly Cup qualifying numbers, but I was happy with my 151.1. Only one other driver was faster, and he was a racer at one of the local tracks.

My biggest surprise was how easy the cars are to drive. Second biggest surprise was the amount of centifugal force at even those moderate speeds. My neck was stiff for several days from the strain.
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  #13  
Old 07-15-2001, 08:56 PM
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gary,

Thats how I got kicked off. I let the "instructor", ( I use that term loosely, cuz he could drive a smooth line if his life depended on it) anyway, I let the lead guy go and I took my time getting off of pit road, and as you know, you are nowhere near the limit on those cars, so I was just comming off of pit road and he was in turn 4 already, so I nailed it and kepted it pinned until I caught up to him a lap later on the front straight, well I was hauling, so I figured I wanted to see what the draft was like so iI was comming hard, and then the hood started to shake, I was closing at such a great speed that I pulled to the left to pass him going into turn one, that was my mistake, they pulled me in and told me"since you can't play by the rules, you'll have to get out.
But when they gave me the print out at the end, I was at 165mph and turned the motor 6500 rpm. It was fun, and I did it in my last session, so it wasn't too bad. But they said later it was for insurance reasons, even though I raced, it didn't matter. I think 1 800 Cup cars is better, they allow you to pass and go faster. I ended up doing a low 39 second time at Las Vegas, the cup guys are 4 seconds faster then that.

Michael
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  #14  
Old 07-17-2001, 12:04 AM
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Nightri1 Nightri1 is offline
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Default Stock cars and "stock" parts

Blunderbus,
Heard Larry McReynolds say that there are two parts on the cup cars that are bought from Detroit. The roof panel and the rear deck. Don't shoot me I'm just the piano player!
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  #15  
Old 07-17-2001, 07:39 AM
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I heard that, too.
But I still think that the dodge resembles a Taurus from the B piller back.
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  #16  
Old 07-17-2001, 08:21 AM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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The Mopar Cup cars use a Taurus top and rear deck. Yes, they look like a Taurus because the templates are almost the same. The major difference is the front nose and decals.
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  #17  
Old 07-17-2001, 09:56 AM
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So I guess you all heard that the GM and Ford guys at Daytona said that the RT in Intrepid RT stood for "really a Taurus"?
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  #18  
Old 07-17-2001, 05:20 PM
451duster 451duster is offline
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Look at the pictures. It seems to me that templates cut from a stock Intrepid would have to be more aero than the race car. The windshield angle alone would mean 2-3 mph at Daytona. Why would they not run the stock profile? NASCAR will not let them!!!!!!!
In my opinion, Dodge is just plying by the rules. The Ford guys are jealous because the Mopar engineers took something that they had been refining for years and made it better in a short period of time.
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  #19  
Old 07-17-2001, 05:36 PM
Blunderbus Blunderbus is offline
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I think Sanborn explained it pretty well a few posts back... Yes, the street Intrepid is a very slick car, but any car that's too slick doesn't generate the downforce you need at a superspeedway. I wonder if the profile Dodge is using is anything like the street Taurus. I doubt it.

Here's what was cool about the old days: Sure, an automaker could design a radical race car. Thing is, NASCAR made you sell that car to the general public, too. So Dodge had to sell 500 '69 Daytonas and Plymouth had to sell 2000 '70 Superbirds. That way it was still "stock car" racing.

Imagine if, in order to compete, Dodge had to sell a limited number of special edition 2001 Rear Wheel Drive V8 Intrepid coupes with 4-speeds...

I guess the "sell what you race" idea ended when NASCAR said, in 1971: "You (Mopar) are not allowed to race wing cars with Hemi engines, whether you sell them to the public or not." That sucked. Shortly (a couple years) after that, Mopar stopped the factory involvement with NASCAR. It's like they were saying, "Why bother?"
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