Why? (bit of a rant)

[Bighead]

Why doesn't Dodge/Chrysler/Plymouth have something to compete with the Mustang GT/Z28 and Cobra/SS/WS6 vehicles?

Sheesh, I have been a Mopar fan since birth. I remember riding in my Dad's 1970 Charger, and thinking it was the coolest ride around when I was a kid.

I recently acquired a 1968 Coronet, but this is HARDLY a daily driver car.

Why isn't there a car with the Challenger/Cuda nameplate that fits the bill of a pony car: Long hood, short deck, v8 power and rear wheel drive.

Ideally, I would want something in the low to mid $20K to middle $30K price range...depending on options and engine...offer it with the Magnum 5.2 and 5.9 engines, and ultimately with the new Hemi (can you say COBRA/SS KILLER?) Offer it with a choice of Auto, 5 speed and 6 speed transmission, REAL dual exhaust, and offer the choice of decent gearing in the back.

Keep something in mind, I have SEEN a 1999 Z28 run a 12.88 quarter mile with no mods other than a 4.10 gear, and Nitto Drag radials, and he DROVE THE CAR TO THE TRACK with the AC on, and got 24 mpg driving it there and back home, INCLUDING HIS RUN! The Cobra's are running mid to high 13's off the showroom floor...simple mods are putting these cars in the 12s. Heck, even the Subaru WRX and Honda S2000 will beat any car, other than the almight Viper in the quarter and handling.

What do we have? A Dakota RT (nice truck, but a TRUCK), the Intrepid RT...no thanks, and the Neon...almost a RICER....Don't get me wrong, those are great vehicles, but they are NOT in the same league as the offerings from the 'OTHER' car manufactureres.

If C/D/P has the BALLS that they had in the 60's and early 70's, they would produce a car that is HEAD and SHOULDERS above the competition, and would strike FEAR in their hearts...they have the heritage, and the engineering, but do they have the GUTS TO DO IT? I am talking about a MINIMUM 350 HP, and an honest to goodness factory low 13 second car.

I get so sick and tired of the LS1 guys and Mustang guys talking trash, it would be nice to just shove it right back in there face with a firebreathing Hemi Powered 2002 CUDA.

I guess a guy can dream.
Bighead

[kdalters]

After seeing all the better the factory Stratus R/T pro stocks are running this year, you might be able to pick one up cheap as a "rolling chassis" real cheap at the end of this years racing.
Just the thing for a Hemi Crate motor!!!

[ehostler]

First off, it is no long C/D/P. Plymouth was dropped.

As far as brute force muscle goes, it is rumored that the 300N has been green lighted. One of the options of the 300N is the 5.7L Hemi. It should get around 24 MPG with the fuel/engine management systems. It should also be able to smoke any curent sports car. I have heard nothing new on the Charger R/T. As it was supposed to share the same platform as the 300N, it would be safe to say that if the 300N gets a green light, so does the Charger.

With the way DC is moving towards cost effective cars sharing components, it would not make sense for them to build just the 300N on this platform.

[426DMB]

Last I heard, both were in doubt. Well, we can always hold out hope. I agree it would be wonderful to have a reasonably priced RWD V8 car to uphold the Mopar Muscle Heritage. Unfortunately such products are low volume. Camaro and Firebird have gotten a brief reprieve, but will soon be gone according to what I've heard. A shame, both are icons on the American car scene. Ford will soldier on with the Mustang which seems to be doing well. I'm glad for Ford and the proponents of the Mustang, but I can only wonder how long it will go on. The real problem is the American consumer seems to be on an import brand love feast and the market for traditional sporty cars is on the wane. Would you have thought 10 years ago, even 5 years ago Camaro and Firebird would get the axe? Not me. Most youthful buyers (the primary market for affordable sporty cars) have little interest in V8 rear drive traditionism. Mention, Dodge or Chevrolet to lots of young guys today and if they are polite they'll blink their eyes to keep you from seeing them roll them back up in their heads. You'd may as well mention a pile of poop! DaimlerChrysler has no desire to whip a dead horse. If built, the Charger R/T and 300N will be marketed to a more mature audience, though I wonder about pricing strategy. Dodge (except Viper) has always been affordable. Surely the Chrysler will be more. I could rant on about how much I dislike the import brand love feast and how much I dislike being portrayed as "old school" or a "dinosaur" by the new "hip" and "sophisticated" consumers of today whose buying patterns are whittling away at what's left of the US auto industry
(latest victim, Oldsmobile) but you can't stop a runaway train of perception and popular opinion. (Japanese and German cars are a gift from heaven!) Of course, all these people aren't all so young, but that attitude persists. Me, I'd love a tweaked 360 or the new 5.7 in a $25,000 to $30,000 Dodge RWD car.
426DMB

[426DMB]

Ranters spouting lofty rhetoric from soapboxes should be able to spell! And I can! (sometimes)


Yers Trewly
426DMB

[Magnum440]

I certainly understand Bigheads point and also 426s. And it has to be a cultural thing. Like baggy pants, backwards caps and hip-hop.But as there is always a mainstream, there are usually, also, sub-cultures that can be seen. In some cases, these may be a "retro-culture"e.g., the culture of young, mostly male, Hot rod(or Muscle Car)enthusiasts. But are they a big or strong enuff voice for Detroit to hear. Probably not. These "hot rod kids" will probably have to depend solely on the aftermarket one day for parts and even cars. Unless the beurocrats have their way and legislate true "hot rods"--as American as apple pie--out of existance. "Grammpa, what was the Ramcharger?" "Well, child, it was kinda like a Blazer, I think, many years ago--then they came out with the Mini-van. That was somethin!"

[426DMB]

Then Gramps went on to say, "After the minvan I realized we were on the verge of automotive fashion and paradigm shift so I got both ears pierced, my tongue, my navel and both butt cheeks too. I turned my hat around and let my pants fall down and bought me a HONDA! Life was good! Boy, that VTEC was something! I'd rev that sucker up and it sounded just like a pissed off bumblebee!"


Well gee! Whaddya expect from a thread that's a rant!
426DMB
PS. An interesting footnote, Honda is discontinuing production of the long running Prelude sports coupe. In the newspaper article announcing this it also stated that the Mustang outsold the Prelude 12 to 1! Maybe there is just a glimmer of hope!

[Chargerchuck]

I have to agree with 426 & Magnum 440. The current market demographics do not support production of Challenger-type cars. The young buyers want SUVs and ricers. Older drivers (for the most part) want comfort. How many great concepts get killed off just before they are scheduled to go into production? The Germans don't care about american muscle car heritage and as far as I can tell, they are the ones calling the shots. As much as I would like to see the new Hemi and a RWD platform make it into production, I'll believe it when I see it.

[satman]

As a (Daimler) Chrysler employee, and a huge MOPAR fan in general, I will say this. With the (slight) inside info I can get, It looks as if they WILL make a V-8 rear drive something. And it looks like that something will be badged, the 300N. Also the engineers are looking at the feasability of putting all the engines in a north/south configuration and then offering the buyer the option of the particular car being front or rear drive. They could do this on a common platform and it would be cost effective and also THE best option choice I've seen in a long time. The interiors would be the same, as would the exteriors. Only the driver would know what he/she has. Of course this would also open up the possobolity of an all wheel drive street killer! I personally am all for it and I hope my superiors do just this! An all wheel drive 5 or 6-speed (new) Hemi 5.7 liter V-8 powered Intrepid or 300N would be great!! As for a 2-door version....well the jury is still out and it don't look good. And also if anyone was wondering about the 2-door stratus and sebring models.......well they are Mitsubishi platform cars. Mitsu. drivetrains only. The 4-door sebring and stratus models and the sebring convert. are, on the other hand, all american, with the best engine being the all aluminum 2.7l V-6.
This is a helluva engine, but it does seriously lack low end grunt. But BOY does it sing above 4,000 rpm!!! (I know, I bought one!!) It's the wifes "baby!"

So to sum it up, the Hemi is a definite go. It WILL start in the trucks, and then MAY find it's way into a rear drive car platform of some sort in the future.

One other thing I have noticed over the years is that Chrysler.....ooops I mean DaimlerChrysler, has always followed it's own path. Look at the history and you will see they have never followed everyone else just because everyone else was doing it. "DIFFERENT" at Chrysler may be the latest slogan, but, for them (er...us?) it's and old concept, still used. This means that, as GM and Ford are toying with killing the Muskrats and Firechickens/Camaro's, I think Chrysler will be different again and fill the void in there own unique way...........stay tuned.................


Tracy.

'01 Chrysler Sebring Ltd. Convert.
'87 Dodge Ramcharger
'80 Dodge P/U
'72 Plymouth Sat Sebring Plus
'71 Sat Sebring
'71 Sat Wagon
sebring@toast.net

[Bighead]

That is definitely encouraging for me to hear...even if it is just a 'rumor from the internet' so to speak.

Not having a two door coupe is a bit of a disappointment, but it's not the end of the world.

I would definitely look forward to the day when a Hemi ruled the streets, and a mopar (post muscle car era) was a vehicle to be feared.

I wish this new car would be a go in the next 6 months... I NEED A NEW COMPANY CAR!

Bighead

[mr-dually]

he!!, i'd be happy if they offered anything but gray or
tan interior colors. does d/c realize how hard it
is to get stains out of them. they must not have
kids or drive actual chysler vehicles.



bring on the colors i'd like to be different than
the guy next to me.

[Gary]

My wife just traded her '99 300M for a '01 Sebring Limited convertible. It actually has a cream and blue interior! After several bland gray and tan interiors, it's a real sweet combination. The 2.7 doesn't make it go as fast as the M, and it doesn't handle as well, but it's a nice car. The exterior color is nice too...light silver blue. How refreshing!

BTW, this is one "old guy" who wants a performance RWD hardtop. I couldn't get it in a car, so I bought a Dakota. Yes, I like it plush, but performance is a must, and the Dakota gives a reasonable compromise. Given the choice, I would have a 300-letter series in a two door, with RWD and V8 power.

[Chargerchuck]

In today's (8/13) Wall Street Journal, DC is estimated to have lost $2 Billion for 2001. With these kind of numbers I will be shocked if they take their concept & turn it to reality. Jurgen and the rest of the DC board under stand one thing, and one thing only; how to make their shareholders happy. And with the kind of losses DC has, their shareholders are going to want more mass appeal Minivans & SUVs, not limited market muscle cars. Keep your old iron in good shape, there's not going to be any more!

[prostock]

Why doesn't Dodge/Chrysler/Plymouth have something to compete with the Mustang GT/Z28 and Cobra/SS/WS6 vehicles?

Because they can't sell enough of them to make it profitable.

The GM "F" body only has a year or two more to live.

[Bighead]

Not being able to sell enough to be profitable...If it were marketed correctly, had clean classic lines, and were a bit remeniscent of the old E body cars, I think they would sell some.

Remember, the PT Cruiser was scoffed at by the Daimler-Chrysler regime, and they are now one of the most popular vehicles made.

In terms of making money, there should be a lower end, V6 powered car, and a higher end, Firebreathing, 5.7L Hemi powered beast. Price one in the upper teens to lower 20's, and price the other in the upper 20's to lower 30's. Right now, the ONLY sports car that you can call a MOPAR is a $50-60K Viper.

How many diehard Mopar fanatics are driving Mustinks and Crapmaro's because they cannot afford a viper and there is no other alternative?

Bighead

[Chargerchuck]

Bighead, you ask an interesting question re: How many mopar fans are really driving something else because Mother Mopar has such slim pickings. You have a point, but I my guess is that for those Mopar fans who need a new car, they probably keep their old mopar in the stable & pick up whatever they need to drive to get back and forth. Maybe I hang out with a select crowd (I doubt it!) but I don't know of any Mopar enthusiast who has a new 'stang, Camaro, etc., as a daily driver.

[Bighead]

I know of at least 4 here in Des Moines.

I know 4 out of a possible 300,000 customers is a drop in the hat, BUT STILL...

If Mother Mopar made the car distinctive, neat, and D-D-D-Dodge Different, and the thing ran like a scalded ape and was affordable, I have to believe it would be a winner like the NEON and PT Cruiser.

I can see it now:

2003 Dodge Challenger
Engine options could include:
3.5L V6, 5.2L Magnum V8, and 5.7L Hemi
4 spd Auto/6 speed Manual
8.75 sure grip rear end w/choice of gear ratios
and Camaro/Mustang whipping performance (13.5 second or less STOCK times in 1/4 mile)

Packaged between $20K (base) and $35K(optioned out) models.

The nameplate is VERY recognizable, and the marketing ads could be a take off of the 300M's 'racing heritage'.

Bighead

[Chargerchuck]

Bighead, you have my nomination as head guy for product development The problem is that DC isn't going to take a $2 billion write-down & then invest a ton of money in a concept that outside of the mopar enthusiasts has limited market appeal (compared to minivans, SUVs, etc.) That doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see it happen, but when it comes to business I tend to be a bit of a realist/pessimist & realize the share holders come before any enthusiast.

[Bighead]

That is a very valid argument, YET, the Viper is still produced, and has been produced for a series of years...Somehow, I just don't think that they are making a ton of profit on the Viper.

There IS a market for this type of car, as evidenced that the Mustang is going to enter another body change, and WILL remain a front engine RWD car.

Despite all the hub bub about the F body going away, IT will remain in one form or another.

There is a market, but DC would HAVE to have a PRODUCT that could be marketed. An azzkicking pony car in the right price range would certainly do that.

Heck, if you called it a 'Superbird' and slapped some gawdy stickers on it, the Ricer crowd would go nuts over it...lol.

Bighead

[Chargerchuck]

Bighead, you made some great points, and I am right there with you, buddy, and if you where here, I'd buy you a cold one. But the way I see it, the Viper is a very exclusive car ( big $, limited production) that appeals to a certain market that is itself very limited. While we would all like to own one, the Viper is not the 21st century equivilent to the Road Runner ( fast, cheap horsepower) which is what I think a lot of people in this forum want to see DC come up with. It's not a question of whether DC has the expertise, its a question of satisfying shareholders so the DC heavyweights can keep their jobs for another day. You are right- there is a market, as evidenced by the Mustang. But Ford was smart; they took a brand identity and massaged it over 35 years so that it continues to have a loyal following that has been passed down the generations. And it is still affordable. You are also right that the GM F body will return. The Camaro/Firebird name also has a brand value (apparently not as high as the Mustang) but from what I understand, it will be resurrected in '04 (yeah guys, RWD, V8.) Regarding Mopar's current status, I hate to point out the history because you all know it. But it bears repeating. Dodge allowed the Charger to become a bloated joke by '75 and the Barracuda/Challenger died in '74, long before a lot of current prospective NEW muscle car buyers were even born. GM and Ford both continued to court the "new" muscle car market with the Z28, Trans Am and Mustang GT while "Lido" Iaccoca was making K-cars and Mini Vans. I don't hold that against him because it's what Lee had to do to keep the company alive. But am I ranting? Hell yes!!! I while I bleed Hemi Orange, I am not so myopic not to see what what the other guys have been doing for the past 20 years. We are all entitled to dream and wish DC to build what we want, but let's look at the recent history and keep in mind who is really running the show- it ain't us!

[Magnum440]

BigHead, you're right. And ChargerChuck, you are also right. DC SHOULD have a Mustang-type car and they DONT because the market-base is no longer there. IF DC DOES make another pony car they would have to have some really BIG balls to do so, IMO! They've allowed their share of the market to wither on the vine, so to speak, these past 26 years. They could, it seems to me, design one based on a "streched" Viper, tho. Thus DC could capitalize on the outstanding performance image and Viper name. I believe, DC thinks the Viper(designed WAY back in !990!)has run it's course--no pun intended. At least, this is what they SHOULD do, IMHO--but probably wont. What it looks like we will get is a Caprice SS type car. In other words, a hopped-up, snazzed-up grocery getter with RWD and a new "Hemi". BUT--who knows--that Crossfire might pan out to be "Mustang competition"--even if it is a little too Euro for my tastes. Only time--and car-truck.com --will tell!