Moparchat - Home of MOPAR enthusiasts worldwide!



Go Back   Moparchat - Home of MOPAR enthusiasts worldwide! > Technical Forums > Performance Talk

Click here to search for Mopar cars and parts for sale.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-28-2000, 08:25 AM
440DARTGT 440DARTGT is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Miwaukee, WI. USA
Age: 49
Posts: 41
Cool

Got a few questions....

I would like to buid a strong, aluminum headed motor for my street/strip 69 dart gt... looking to go low 11.20s

I want to purchase the Muscle motors 474 kit if I can come up with the penniesto do so. Does anyone have any comments on this motor?

If i cannot afford the 474 i will build a 451 in the same manner as i would the 474, alum head, ultradyne cam (under .600 lift)and all the goodies. The kit is available with two options for con rods. 1. rebuilt factory rods or the eagle rods which would i like to buy if i can afford it. Do you guys think the mopar rods will live in a 575-600hp motor?
I dont want to spend all my hard earned cash only for my motor to have a con rod sticking out the side of the block. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks

BIG BLOCK A-BODIES ROCK!

Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-28-2000, 09:21 AM
DartGT66 DartGT66 is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: vantaa,finland
Posts: 4,622
Post

I have not experience on the 471, but I guess it's a good package, and you don't have to concern about the rods in that case. I think that the prepared LY rods are just fine for the '451'. It's not the horsepower that kills the rods, it's the rpm. Since the ROSS pistons in this packege weighs less than 2/3 of the stockers, I would say that the LY's are pretty bulletproof up to about 7000 rpm. They are also lighter than the aftermarket rods.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-28-2000, 02:40 PM
fast68plymouth fast68plymouth is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: so burlington,vt usa
Posts: 111
Post

i wouldnt risk a several thousand dollar investment on a $700 set of rods. if you can swing the cash-flow, get the rods. cheap insurance. i have seen many a ly rod pulled in half.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-28-2000, 05:32 PM
451boy 451boy is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 286
Post

The 474 is going to cost you a fair amount more than the 451. Sounds like this is the first such motor for you so I'd recommend going with the 451. That will make more than enough power to go low 11's and you'll have the extra money to spend on the heads. BTW - if there is a decent engine shop nearby you can build your own motor rather than buy the MM kit. All you need is a forged 440 crank, a 400 block and a set of stock shelf pistons. If it was me, I'd use Manley rods and JE pistons with a 0.990 pin. Turn the OD of the crank to 7.250, have the mains ground to 383 low book standard with a radius and you should be set. Any decent engine shop in your local area will be able to handle this for you and that way you'll be able to work directly with the guy building your motor. BTW, last set of Manley rods I bought was $400. It is tough to rebuild a set of LY rods for much less than that.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-29-2000, 05:27 PM
MD MD is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: MT
Posts: 212
Post

Just adding to 451 boy's answer, I believe he meant to say 383 low deck. I wouldn't normally bring out a typo since I make more than my fair share, just trying to help avoid any confusion!

Also, when you radius grind the crank mains to the 383/400 journal size, be sure to buy the bearings meant for radiused cranks.

Michael
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-30-2000, 02:14 AM
BruceM BruceM is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Reading, PA
Posts: 26
Post

451boy,

Where did you get Manley rods for $400.00?

------------------
BruceM
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-30-2000, 04:23 AM
451boy 451boy is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 286
Post

Bruce - Manley had a big sale on their H beam rods a few months back. Even sold them on ebay with a $399 reserve. Lots of people on the Moparts board picked up sets. I grabbed a set even though I didn't need them since it was such a good deal. I'll use them eventually.

MD - Thanks for the catch but I did actually mean low book. Low book is what you tell the machinist and that tells him to grind the journal to the low side of the tolerance which gives you the maximum recommended clearance. For a street motor you would ask for high book, for a high performance motor you ask for low book. Maybe that is just a local term? Anyway, that is how the machine shops around here talk.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-30-2000, 07:15 AM
MD MD is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: MT
Posts: 212
Post

451boy - I haven't heard it (journal size) expressed that way before but now I understand what you meant.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-30-2000, 07:18 AM
440DARTGT 440DARTGT is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Miwaukee, WI. USA
Age: 49
Posts: 41
Post

Thanks for all your ideas....
are the manley rods still available?

currently have a 71 400 motor and a 70 440 motor with the LY rods. I guess it would be most economical to build the 451 if I have all the parts.

I want to use forged slugs... someone (a friend) mentioned that the 400 pistons will work? I find this hard to beleive, they would be poping out the top of the deck right?

one more, anyone know of a GOOD machine shop near te milwaukee wi, area? Thanks, Pete
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-30-2000, 01:51 PM
440 Jim's Avatar
440 Jim 440 Jim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Lexington Park Maryland
Posts: 323
Thumbs up

Quote:
Manley had a big sale on their H beam rods a few months back. Even sold them on ebay with a $399 reserve. Lots of people on the Moparts board picked up sets.
I missed that sale. If anyone decides to sell the ones they bought, I will buy them plus whatever shipping they paid and the shipping to me!

440 Jim
(holding my breath waiting...)
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 09-30-2000, 06:24 PM
BruceM BruceM is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Reading, PA
Posts: 26
Post

Wow, I miss all the good deals. If anyone heres of another sale like that, please post. Also, like Jim said, I take any unwanted rods.

------------------
BruceM
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09-30-2000, 07:09 PM
ZIPPY ZIPPY is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Michigan
Posts: 84
Post

Quote:
Originally posted by 451boy:

MD - Thanks for the catch but I did actually mean low book. Low book is what you tell the machinist and that tells him to grind the journal to the low side of the tolerance which gives you the maximum recommended clearance. For a street motor you would ask for high book, for a high performance motor you ask for low book. Maybe that is just a local term? Anyway, that is how the machine shops around here talk.
That's funny, the lingo around here is "high side" or "low side" of specs, with everybody except my current favorite shop---

----on the last buildup (360) the guy said "well how much clearance do you want?" I said "give me 2 thousandths on the rods, and 2 1/2 thou on the mains"... And they gave me exactly that---even though they didn't have any bearings to put in the block, and measure (?)

HOW DEY DO DAT??

Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10-02-2000, 05:12 AM
451boy 451boy is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 286
Post

440Dart, you have a bunch of pistons to choose from when using the 440 crank and rods in a 400 block. Keith Black makes some very nice cast pistons which are good for up to 500hp or more. Wiseco, JE, Ross, etc all make standard pistons. Muscle Motors can get you the best price on Ross pistons, $479 is what they usually advertise. If you want my opinion, use KB pistons unless you're going to make a ton of power, in that case, use JE's. A 440 crank, LY rods and KB pistons is a good street perf setup. For those high HP motors, Manley rods and JE pistons is my recommendation.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10-03-2000, 10:19 AM
451Mopar 451Mopar is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Aurora, Colorado
Age: 59
Posts: 1,831
Post

If your on a tight budget, the 451 is alot cheaper than the 474, and with a cam under 0.600" (why not bigger?) and Power at only 600HP and RPM under 7,000, stock rods will work, but If you can, the aftermarket rods are good insurance.

The Indy S/R and Brodix B-1 B/S heads are very good on street strip engines of this size. Edelbrock is supposed to be working on an aluminum big block head also. I'm not very impressed with the Mopar Stage VI head, but it is supposed to work good once ported.
Some mild porting really will work good on any of the heads above.

On my 451 stroker engine, the actual 451 short block is actually one of the least expensive components of the engine. The cost of the ported aluminum (B-1 B/S) heads and valve train was much more than the shortblock.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10-03-2000, 12:01 PM
451duster 451duster is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Parkersburg,WV,USA
Posts: 48
Post

Just for reference I built a 451 for my Duster and used LY rods. They were shot peened, beams polished, ARP bolts, .990 bushed and resized. My best time yet was his weekend and I ran a 7.349 second 1/8th which should put me in the mid 11's on the big track. This motor has a .570 lift mech Ultradyne cam and a dual plane intake. I shift at 5800rpm for consistancy. I run 3.55:1 gears and a 750 Edelbrock carb. The potential for low 11's is there with a gear and carb change. I am very happy with my 451 and its performance. With a good set of aluminum heads you should be easily knocking on the door of the 10's.
BTW It is somewhat expensive to prep the LY rods so this should be factored into your calculation.

------------------
Thanks,
Scott
------------------
Two wrongs do not make a right but three rights do make a left.

http://www.geocities.com/goldenhazeduster/
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 10-03-2000, 02:59 PM
Beeracuda Beeracuda is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Lorena, TX
Posts: 99
Post

Although we got at least a thousand hard passes, running as much as 7200 rpm, I would spend the money on the rods. We broke a rod at the bracket finals last year. We got really lucky, it just got the block, a couple of valves and 3 pistons. We replaced all the rods with another set of LY's. The rods we had were shot-peened and polished. We put new ARP wavelock bolts in and sized and magnafluxed them every year.

We bought a set of the sale Manleys and are gonna use them on another motor (got a 4 3/8" crank setting in storage).

Monty

------------------
Monty Brown
74 Barracuda
446 / PG
10.14 /134
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 10-03-2000, 04:44 PM
451boy 451boy is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 286
Post

Manley still has the sale going on Hemi+.100 rods. $375 plus shipping. That is a hard price to beat for such a high quality rod. I think I've seen guys at swap meets ask just as much for 30 year old 6 pack rods!
The Hemi+.100 is probably a hair too long to use in a 451 low deck motor, but it would work fine in a stroker RB motor.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 10-03-2000, 06:12 PM
440 Jim's Avatar
440 Jim 440 Jim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Lexington Park Maryland
Posts: 323
Post

440Dart,
FYI some 400 stroker piston info:

KB 280, www.kb-silvolite.com/page41.htm
Ross 99494, www.rosspistons.com/chrstock1.htm
JE 131175, www.jepistons.com
BRC 35 01 320 375, www.brcpistons.com/pist_chrysler.html

440 stroke 3.75
440 rod length 6.768
440 rod pin diameter 1.094

------------------
440 Jim
E-Body Fish
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 10-04-2000, 04:45 PM
440DARTGT 440DARTGT is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Miwaukee, WI. USA
Age: 49
Posts: 41
Post

I want to thank you guys for shareing all your Mopar wisdom with me. You have all been a great help. Thanks, Pete
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 10-05-2000, 06:10 PM
TL TL is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: illinois
Posts: 505
Post

When Manley rods are mantioned does that nessecarily mean BBChevy length?
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 10-06-2000, 06:47 AM
DartGT66 DartGT66 is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: vantaa,finland
Posts: 4,622
Post

Depends on what size engine you mean. If you are talking about '451', then you use Mopar rods. If making a '471' engine, then you use chevy rods. This is because chevys have a smaller big end and to get the additional stroke you offset grind the mopar crank to the chevy bearing size. The Mopar RB length rod is also too long for this combo, the piston pin will interfere severly with the rings. Hope this clarified ti some.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 10-10-2000, 01:06 AM
BEEP383 BEEP383 is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Huntsville, AL, USA
Age: 59
Posts: 75
Post

Speaking of stroker kits, has anyone dealt with Speed-O-Motive out of California? They have a 450(451) stroker kit that includes KB pistons & crank for $895.00. I would like for some of you guys to check out there website and post what think of their kit.
www.speedomotive.com

Thanks a lot!
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 10-10-2000, 01:49 AM
440 Jim's Avatar
440 Jim 440 Jim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Lexington Park Maryland
Posts: 323
Post

Sounds like they are selling you the parts, fine. Price is about right for what you get, no big deal or savings.

My opinion(s):
Don't have them balance it. You may need to cut the pistons, weigh them and then balance. Trial assembly, minimum 0.040 piston to head clearance. Moly ring option highly recommended. Ask them to clarify what bearings are offered, they say Clevite 77 but then offer them as a $22 option? Also clarify what size crank you are getting 0.010 under, 0.030 under, or what? I am not a cast crank fan, but for less than 450 hp, OK; or forged steel option $195.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 10-10-2000, 07:58 AM
PRO PRO is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Grand Junction,CO.USA
Posts: 1,573
Post

11.20s are easily attainable with a 440 with a set of ported heads,your stock rods wont live thats for sure but with main studs and aftermarket rods it'll be alot cheaper......PRO....
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 10-11-2000, 01:05 AM
BEEP383 BEEP383 is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Huntsville, AL, USA
Age: 59
Posts: 75
Post

Here is a comparison list between Muscle Motors & Speed-O-Motive:

Muscle Motors Speed-O-Motive
Ross lightweight pistons Keith Black 215
440 steel crank 440 cast crank
(both have milled counter weights)
440 steel rods 6.358 steel rods
(both have arp bolts, SOM are 6.358 long &
come balanced)
Childs & Alberts Sealed Power
rings Cast rings
Clevite 77 bearings Clevite 77
Competion Balanced Balance $115.00

Price $1799.00 Price $1010.00
To match MM kit $1205.00
with steel crank

Muscle Motors has a very good business reputation for their kit but I don't know much about Speed-O-Motive only because I just now found about them. So you Mopar chatters let us know or comment about them.
Another place I was told about has Hale Performance in Arkansas but I couldn't find
a website for them. Thanks for listening.


Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
. . . . .