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#1
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Got a few questions....
I would like to buid a strong, aluminum headed motor for my street/strip 69 dart gt... looking to go low 11.20s I want to purchase the Muscle motors 474 kit if I can come up with the penniesto do so. Does anyone have any comments on this motor? If i cannot afford the 474 i will build a 451 in the same manner as i would the 474, alum head, ultradyne cam (under .600 lift)and all the goodies. The kit is available with two options for con rods. 1. rebuilt factory rods or the eagle rods which would i like to buy if i can afford it. Do you guys think the mopar rods will live in a 575-600hp motor? I dont want to spend all my hard earned cash only for my motor to have a con rod sticking out the side of the block. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks BIG BLOCK A-BODIES ROCK! |
#2
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I have not experience on the 471, but I guess it's a good package, and you don't have to concern about the rods in that case. I think that the prepared LY rods are just fine for the '451'. It's not the horsepower that kills the rods, it's the rpm. Since the ROSS pistons in this packege weighs less than 2/3 of the stockers, I would say that the LY's are pretty bulletproof up to about 7000 rpm. They are also lighter than the aftermarket rods.
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#3
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i wouldnt risk a several thousand dollar investment on a $700 set of rods. if you can swing the cash-flow, get the rods. cheap insurance. i have seen many a ly rod pulled in half.
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#4
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The 474 is going to cost you a fair amount more than the 451. Sounds like this is the first such motor for you so I'd recommend going with the 451. That will make more than enough power to go low 11's and you'll have the extra money to spend on the heads. BTW - if there is a decent engine shop nearby you can build your own motor rather than buy the MM kit. All you need is a forged 440 crank, a 400 block and a set of stock shelf pistons. If it was me, I'd use Manley rods and JE pistons with a 0.990 pin. Turn the OD of the crank to 7.250, have the mains ground to 383 low book standard with a radius and you should be set. Any decent engine shop in your local area will be able to handle this for you and that way you'll be able to work directly with the guy building your motor. BTW, last set of Manley rods I bought was $400. It is tough to rebuild a set of LY rods for much less than that.
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#5
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Just adding to 451 boy's answer, I believe he meant to say 383 low deck. I wouldn't normally bring out a typo since I make more than my fair share, just trying to help avoid any confusion!
Also, when you radius grind the crank mains to the 383/400 journal size, be sure to buy the bearings meant for radiused cranks. Michael |
#6
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451boy,
Where did you get Manley rods for $400.00? ------------------ BruceM |
#7
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Bruce - Manley had a big sale on their H beam rods a few months back. Even sold them on ebay with a $399 reserve. Lots of people on the Moparts board picked up sets. I grabbed a set even though I didn't need them since it was such a good deal. I'll use them eventually.
MD - Thanks for the catch but I did actually mean low book. Low book is what you tell the machinist and that tells him to grind the journal to the low side of the tolerance which gives you the maximum recommended clearance. For a street motor you would ask for high book, for a high performance motor you ask for low book. Maybe that is just a local term? Anyway, that is how the machine shops around here talk. |
#8
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451boy - I haven't heard it (journal size) expressed that way before but now I understand what you meant.
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#9
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Thanks for all your ideas....
are the manley rods still available? currently have a 71 400 motor and a 70 440 motor with the LY rods. I guess it would be most economical to build the 451 if I have all the parts. I want to use forged slugs... someone (a friend) mentioned that the 400 pistons will work? I find this hard to beleive, they would be poping out the top of the deck right? one more, anyone know of a GOOD machine shop near te milwaukee wi, area? Thanks, Pete |
#10
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Quote:
440 Jim (holding my breath waiting...) |
#11
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Wow, I miss all the good deals. If anyone heres of another sale like that, please post. Also, like Jim said, I take any unwanted rods.
------------------ BruceM |
#12
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Quote:
----on the last buildup (360) the guy said "well how much clearance do you want?" I said "give me 2 thousandths on the rods, and 2 1/2 thou on the mains"... And they gave me exactly that---even though they didn't have any bearings to put in the block, and measure (?) HOW DEY DO DAT?? |
#13
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440Dart, you have a bunch of pistons to choose from when using the 440 crank and rods in a 400 block. Keith Black makes some very nice cast pistons which are good for up to 500hp or more. Wiseco, JE, Ross, etc all make standard pistons. Muscle Motors can get you the best price on Ross pistons, $479 is what they usually advertise. If you want my opinion, use KB pistons unless you're going to make a ton of power, in that case, use JE's. A 440 crank, LY rods and KB pistons is a good street perf setup. For those high HP motors, Manley rods and JE pistons is my recommendation.
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#14
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If your on a tight budget, the 451 is alot cheaper than the 474, and with a cam under 0.600" (why not bigger?) and Power at only 600HP and RPM under 7,000, stock rods will work, but If you can, the aftermarket rods are good insurance.
The Indy S/R and Brodix B-1 B/S heads are very good on street strip engines of this size. Edelbrock is supposed to be working on an aluminum big block head also. I'm not very impressed with the Mopar Stage VI head, but it is supposed to work good once ported. Some mild porting really will work good on any of the heads above. On my 451 stroker engine, the actual 451 short block is actually one of the least expensive components of the engine. The cost of the ported aluminum (B-1 B/S) heads and valve train was much more than the shortblock. |
#15
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Just for reference I built a 451 for my Duster and used LY rods. They were shot peened, beams polished, ARP bolts, .990 bushed and resized. My best time yet was his weekend and I ran a 7.349 second 1/8th which should put me in the mid 11's on the big track. This motor has a .570 lift mech Ultradyne cam and a dual plane intake. I shift at 5800rpm for consistancy. I run 3.55:1 gears and a 750 Edelbrock carb. The potential for low 11's is there with a gear and carb change. I am very happy with my 451 and its performance. With a good set of aluminum heads you should be easily knocking on the door of the 10's.
BTW It is somewhat expensive to prep the LY rods so this should be factored into your calculation. ------------------ Thanks, Scott ------------------ Two wrongs do not make a right but three rights do make a left. http://www.geocities.com/goldenhazeduster/ |
#16
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Although we got at least a thousand hard passes, running as much as 7200 rpm, I would spend the money on the rods. We broke a rod at the bracket finals last year. We got really lucky, it just got the block, a couple of valves and 3 pistons. We replaced all the rods with another set of LY's. The rods we had were shot-peened and polished. We put new ARP wavelock bolts in and sized and magnafluxed them every year.
We bought a set of the sale Manleys and are gonna use them on another motor (got a 4 3/8" crank setting in storage). Monty ------------------ Monty Brown 74 Barracuda 446 / PG 10.14 /134 |
#17
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Manley still has the sale going on Hemi+.100 rods. $375 plus shipping. That is a hard price to beat for such a high quality rod. I think I've seen guys at swap meets ask just as much for 30 year old 6 pack rods!
The Hemi+.100 is probably a hair too long to use in a 451 low deck motor, but it would work fine in a stroker RB motor. |
#18
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440Dart,
FYI some 400 stroker piston info: KB 280, www.kb-silvolite.com/page41.htm Ross 99494, www.rosspistons.com/chrstock1.htm JE 131175, www.jepistons.com BRC 35 01 320 375, www.brcpistons.com/pist_chrysler.html 440 stroke 3.75 440 rod length 6.768 440 rod pin diameter 1.094 ------------------ 440 Jim E-Body Fish |
#19
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I want to thank you guys for shareing all your Mopar wisdom with me. You have all been a great help. Thanks, Pete
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#20
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When Manley rods are mantioned does that nessecarily mean BBChevy length?
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#21
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Depends on what size engine you mean. If you are talking about '451', then you use Mopar rods. If making a '471' engine, then you use chevy rods. This is because chevys have a smaller big end and to get the additional stroke you offset grind the mopar crank to the chevy bearing size. The Mopar RB length rod is also too long for this combo, the piston pin will interfere severly with the rings. Hope this clarified ti some.
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#22
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Speaking of stroker kits, has anyone dealt with Speed-O-Motive out of California? They have a 450(451) stroker kit that includes KB pistons & crank for $895.00. I would like for some of you guys to check out there website and post what think of their kit.
www.speedomotive.com Thanks a lot! |
#23
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Sounds like they are selling you the parts, fine. Price is about right for what you get, no big deal or savings.
My opinion(s): Don't have them balance it. You may need to cut the pistons, weigh them and then balance. Trial assembly, minimum 0.040 piston to head clearance. Moly ring option highly recommended. Ask them to clarify what bearings are offered, they say Clevite 77 but then offer them as a $22 option? Also clarify what size crank you are getting 0.010 under, 0.030 under, or what? I am not a cast crank fan, but for less than 450 hp, OK; or forged steel option $195. |
#24
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11.20s are easily attainable with a 440 with a set of ported heads,your stock rods wont live thats for sure but with main studs and aftermarket rods it'll be alot cheaper......PRO....
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#25
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Here is a comparison list between Muscle Motors & Speed-O-Motive:
Muscle Motors Speed-O-Motive Ross lightweight pistons Keith Black 215 440 steel crank 440 cast crank (both have milled counter weights) 440 steel rods 6.358 steel rods (both have arp bolts, SOM are 6.358 long & come balanced) Childs & Alberts Sealed Power rings Cast rings Clevite 77 bearings Clevite 77 Competion Balanced Balance $115.00 Price $1799.00 Price $1010.00 To match MM kit $1205.00 with steel crank Muscle Motors has a very good business reputation for their kit but I don't know much about Speed-O-Motive only because I just now found about them. So you Mopar chatters let us know or comment about them. Another place I was told about has Hale Performance in Arkansas but I couldn't find a website for them. Thanks for listening. |
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