Need some opinions on cam Timing

[ChristianCuda]

If anyone is following my car it has been runnign pretty good but It has also had a major overheating problem. Also it does not seem to have the torque it should have and then will rev pulling to 7000 in a 383.

Our thoughts are this and before going into everything I want to get some opinions especially PRO's as he seems to have seen everything.

I am thinking about changing the timing chain Set out with a standard double roller. It currently has a Cloyes multi-keyway Timing set. I didn't install it on this engine and don't have instructions to do so. When I went through the engine this last year the chain was still good and so I didn't mess with it. I did change the cam. I could not find our Dial indicator to properly dial in the cam and so I didn't do that like I wanted to. I set up the gear set on the triangles which is the standard timing gear marks. Question are these correct marks for straight up? We have been thinking that the cam is retarded causing the low cylinder pressures, overheating, and loss of torque. Am I correct in thinking this? Should we spend the money to get a dial indicator and dial in the cam properly or just install straight up with the new gears? It is the MP 509/292 cam. I also heard these should be advanced 4 degrees is this correct?

What are anybodys thoughts about this.

As far as the overheating we have done everything including richening the mixture to make sure it wasnt lean.

It will heat up from 160-230 in the 1/4 mile pass. The car has run a best of 13.20@105

Help please
Christian

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Http://ThunderRacing.Knudstrup.net/

68 'Cuda 383 Best of 13.249@103 with a 1.916 60ft (now 13.20@105 but 2.03 60ft with 3.91 gears and tire slip)
(Formula S recreation not original but making like they should have at the factory) Working on adding EFI
69 'Cuda Race Parts Car
76 Duster 273 recent transplant
95 Neon 2.0 SOHC best of 16.96
84 Dodge Ram D50 transplanting 360

[GTXMONTE]

The 509 seems to perform a little better in a heavy car with it advanced 4*. I thought the dots were straight up on the Cloyes...but don't take that to the bank. Your best bet...get whatever you need to properly degree the cam, there is too much tolerance on different types of gears to know where you are at without using a degree wheel.
Normally, if a car gets that hot while going down the track, it's lean, it's detonating, or the cam timing is way off.

Monte Smith

[ChristianCuda]

Thanks monte
My buddy just told me the Timing chain and gears will be here on Thursday hopefully and his boss is going to lend us the dial indicator to setup the cam properly. I am going to tear it down tonight and then on thursday get ready to set it all up properly.

I know those are the reasons for a motor to overheat and we checked each of them leaving us with this solution. The car is running slightly rich now so its not lean and its not detonating not on 108 Octane.

Christian

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Http://ThunderRacing.Knudstrup.net/

68 'Cuda 383 Best of 13.249@103 with a 1.916 60ft (now 13.20@105 but 2.03 60ft with 3.91 gears and tire slip)
(Formula S recreation not original but making like they should have at the factory) Working on adding EFI
69 'Cuda Race Parts Car
76 Duster 273 recent transplant
95 Neon 2.0 SOHC best of 16.96
84 Dodge Ram D50 transplanting 360

[pishta]

The circles are the straight up indicators. I just went through this on my timing chain. The rectangles are retarded and the triangles are advanced (damn, or is it the other way around?) Well, I know for a fact the circles are straight up. Remember to use the circle thats NOT over the keyway as the reference mark to the cam sprocket dot.

[340king]

I would check the cam timing before completely disassembling your engine. It may not be the timing. The circles are the straight up indicators from my experience.

I know very little about the .509 cam, but in my experience with a variety of engines, the intake lobe should max out between 102° and 110°. I think 106° would work just fine.

To find this put the degree wheel on the damper and set it to TDC. Then set the dial indicator to 0 when the lifter/rocker arm reaches the highest/max lift on the intake valve. Then rotate the engine to .025" below the max lift and take the reading on the degree wheel. Rotate the engine until it comes back up to max lift -.025", and take another reading. Add the two readings together, divide by two and this is the centerline of the lobe lift. It should be between the 102° and 110°. The lower the number, the more advanced i

[ChristianCuda]

340king I wasn't planning on disassembling the whole motor. I am going to replace the timing chain. We did set it on the circles
I found out last night after tearing it down. I checked it against my new timing set and it matches up perfectly atleast as close as I could see. We are going to try to dial in the cam properly this weekend.

340 Do you have any other ideas on what could be my problems other than the cam being off.

Thanks everyone
Christian

------------------
Http://ThunderRacing.Knudstrup.net/

68 'Cuda 383 Best of 13.249@103 with a 1.916 60ft (now 13.20@105 but 2.03 60ft with 3.91 gears and tire slip)
(Formula S recreation not original but making like they should have at the factory) Working on adding EFI
69 'Cuda Race Parts Car
76 Duster 273 recent transplant
95 Neon 2.0 SOHC best of 16.96
84 Dodge Ram D50 transplanting 360

[This message has been edited by ChristianCuda (edited November 03, 2000).]

[440 Jim]

Christian,
Sounds like you are getting close on checking the cam. Keep us posted! Just to be sure you have the info, the MP 292/0.509 cam has a lobe separation of 108 degrees and MP says to install it at 108 degrees intake centerline. Many people (and manufacturers) believe that around 4 degrees advance, i.e. 104 installed intake centerline, will provide more low end torque and overall better powerband. So it is your call. I think with your 383, gears, converter etc, 106-108 would be fine.
--------
440 Jim

[BigBlockDuster]

Most mfg's go by the standards of circles=sraightup, triangles=advanced, squares=retarded.
I have the 509 292 cam in my 500 crate engine and just today i checked it and its installed at between 109&110(varied a little every time) I called Mopar tech line on Fri and was faxed over a cam spec sheet and it said lobe CL is 108 and installed lobe CL should be 106. Most recomendations i have gotten are for 106-104 for best torque and low end from this cam.
Know i need to find out if the offset bushing kit from mopar will work with the 1 bolt cam gear, anyone know??

BBD

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http://home.pacbell.net/briguyy/

[23T-Wedge]

Big-block,

Yes, the bushing kit will work on either 1-bolt or 3-bolt cams as it slides over the dowel pin. You will have to drill out the cam gear for the bushing, the best way is to drill from the back-side of the gear, (the side facing the block...) being careful to not drill all the way through, leaving just a small lip to hold the bushing in place. It's been a while since I drilled one but I think the drill size is 11/32" or 13/32".

Ronny
Waymaker Racing
John 14:6

[This message has been edited by 23T-Wedge (edited November 06, 2000).]

[ChristianCuda]

I have the bushing kit and yes it works with the 3 bolt and one bolt cams. It is a 13/32 Drill bit. 23T-Wedge thanks for the tip on not drilling all the way through. I was thinking of locktighting it in.

By the way on my car we didnt get it degreed in partly because the timing set was for the three bolt cam rather than the one bolt. The new set is already on its way. We did just for shits and giggles move the cloyes set to the triangles from the circles to advance it and damn did it make a major difference in the way it ran. We ran it Saturady and was running 1.89 60 ft times rather than the 2.03 it was doing. And 8.36 in the 1/8 over the 8.46 previously. Huge difference. I think this cam is not straight up. We have a feeling the locating pin may have been drilled 1/8" off which could put this cam at retarded at straight up. I am going to degree it in this coming saturday and set it at 104. I want more torque. Oh the motor is still pulling hard (harder now even) to 7000. Not going to take it there as much now though. I lost in the Quarter Finals due to a missed shift the shifter slipped from 1st to 3rd on the 1-2 shift. Good thing though cause one of the torque converter bolts is now loose. Damn those things dont want to stay in. I am going to cut off the welds on the blocks now on the converter and weld new blocks in with good threads and see if that solves my problems.

Thanks for all the Help guys.

Christian out
Peace


------------------
Http://ThunderRacing.Knudstrup.net/

68 'Cuda 383 Best of 13.249@103 with a 1.916 60ft (now 13.20@105 but 2.03 60ft with 3.91 gears and tire slip)
(Formula S recreation not original but making like they should have at the factory) Working on adding EFI
69 'Cuda Race Parts Car
76 Duster 273 recent transplant
95 Neon 2.0 SOHC best of 16.96
84 Dodge Ram D50 transplanting 360

[ChristianCuda]

Oh also it no longer is heating up and when we adjust the ignition timing it makes a difference immediately so let this forewarn anyone having simialr problems the cam could be off from the factory. Just goes to show that we need to check and recheck EVERYTHING TWICE!!!!

Christian

------------------
Http://ThunderRacing.Knudstrup.net/

68 'Cuda 383 Best of 13.249@103 with a 1.916 60ft (now 13.20@105 but 2.03 60ft with 3.91 gears and tire slip)
(Formula S recreation not original but making like they should have at the factory) Working on adding EFI
69 'Cuda Race Parts Car
76 Duster 273 recent transplant
95 Neon 2.0 SOHC best of 16.96
84 Dodge Ram D50 transplanting 360

[BigBlockDuster]

YO- C Cuda

I just checked(degree wheel) my 292/509 in the Crate Motor with the heads on over the weekend. It kept coming up about 109-109.5 usong intake C.Line method. The Timing set thats on there only has the O's and they were lined up at TDC. Well this had me more than a little concerned, and i found something that required pulling the heads anyways(header bolt holes in head not tapped all the way in, some go into water jacket), so i pulled the heads and re degreed the cam with the dial indicator on the lifter instead of the v. spring reatiner, and kept coming up with 106.5 on C. Line.....???
Well anyways that sounds a little more real world spec and not to mention a more accurate way of degreeing a cam.
I ordered the Mr. Gasket 0,2,4,6,8 bushing package. I think i will try the 2 first and see what happens, with a 3.91 gear and drag radials i may run into bit of a traction problem as it is.

anyways heres some of my car info:

> 76 Duster, probably about 3200lbs, will see mostly street miles
> 500ci 575hp (1.6 rockers) Mopar crate engine
> 8 3/4 ,3.91 ,Trac Lok
> 13"x28" Drag Radials 10.5" tread width
> Dynamic cmpetiton TF727 w/ Rev. Manaul v body
> Dynamic 11" Race Hemi Converter 3000RPM
> Gear Vendors O.D./Splitter
> Pro Parts semi fender well 2" headers
> Carb.......??????Not decided yet

I also posted a few pics of motor/heads under a related topic at Moparts if anyones interested: http://216.218.201.10/ubb/Forum1/HTML/016871.html

Keep me posted about results C Cuda

Later,

BBD

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http://home.pacbell.net/briguyy/

[This message has been edited by BigBlockDuster (edited November 06, 2000).]

[340king]

I prefer the Cloyes and Hamberger billet sprocket timing sets. They offer a wider variety of advance settings without drilling or using offset bushings. This is stronger and is arguably less costly if your time is worth anything. The sets come with like 9 different alignments possible. It allows 1° increments in cam advancement. Typically, the triangle, box and circle style advance/retard 4° at the crank. This is a little much in most cases, still requiring an offset bushing or key. They are around $100, not cheap, but what is your time wort