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  #1  
Old 08-20-2001, 12:49 AM
Plum Crazy Chris Plum Crazy Chris is offline
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Question My 340-Edelbrock Heads or Stroker Kit?

I'm trying to decide whether I should go with a 416 cu 4" stroker kit ~ $1900 with stock heads or the Edelbrock heads at ~ $1250, for my 340. Which will give more bang for the buck? And Why?

I'd like to do both, but my funds are limited.

Are the aluminum heads easy to live with on the street? Can all my accessories & A/C bolt up easily?

Thanks for your advice!
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  #2  
Old 08-20-2001, 09:00 AM
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rumblefish360 rumblefish360 is offline
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I had no trouble bolting up my stuff. I did have to cut my own spacer for the Alt because I did not have one. Also used a March serpintine conversion kit. Had to swing the Alt all the way to clear. Longer belt needed for that.
If the stock heads won't flow air to let the power out....

Do 1 and save for the other. Performance now? Heads.
Power later...stroker kit. Then heads. And port them.
just IMO
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Old 08-20-2001, 09:51 AM
Jims451 Jims451 is offline
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You will get the most power improvement from the Edelbrock heads, and you will need then later when you build the stroker engine.
The stroker engine will cost more, plus add in all the costs of machining the block (cleaning, boring, decking, etc.)
The stroker engine will help low end torque, but your power is limited by the heads and cam.

Check with INDY cylinder heads as they have a special cast, big valve, Small block Edelbrock head that flows like an aluminum big block head (over 300 cfm?), but you have to use off set rocker arms.
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  #4  
Old 08-20-2001, 10:55 AM
Plum Crazy Chris Plum Crazy Chris is offline
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I guess I didn't mention that it is a non-running engine that's been sitting for decades. The bottom end looks new, a couple of the pistons are pretty seized up, rusted, I guess from the looks of it. They'll have to be removed through the bottom. Not much scoring on the cyl. walls though. I'll have to see when I get it mic'd out if it needs line boring or not. So all the machine work to the block might be neccessary anyway.

It also looks uncut. If the cylinders have been bored, will it always show the amount of over-bore on the top of the cylinder?

Are there any problems that are generally associated with aluminum heads? ie: sealing problems due to different rates of thermal expansion? I was told that might be a problem.
If not, then I guess Heads would be the way to go, but 76 cu will go a long way too.

I was thinking along the lines of the MP 340 build on the stock motor. intake, headers, cam & springs, and big carb, and then throw the heads on too. Any ideas as to what kind of improvement will be seen from the 392 hp base that MP got on their 340, with the addition of the heads?
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Old 08-20-2001, 11:09 AM
Jims451 Jims451 is offline
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I think with the stroker engine and the Edelbrock heads you could build a nice streetable 450HP, 450 ft/lbs torque engine. If you wanted to go racing I think 500+ HP would not be too hard to acheive.

Sealing the aluminum heads should not be a problem unless you start using very high compression ratios, like 12.5:1 or higher, but the aluminum heads do require new ARP head bolts (or studs would be even better) with hardened washers that won't cut into the heads.

I just mentioned the machining costs as I recently built a 360 and I had about $1,000 in machine work done! This included cleaning the block, crank, rods, etc, offset grinding the crank, align honing the block (with ARP studs), reconditioning the rods with ARP bolts, Zero decking the block height, a 0.040" over bore, and honing with torque plates (and ARP head studs).
The heads were also milled, and cam bearings Removed and replaced. The entire crank assembly was ballanced, etc.

The plus side of a stroker kit is that all the crank and rods are done and ballanced, so you only need to overbore the block, check the deck heights and main bearing alignment.
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  #6  
Old 08-20-2001, 11:53 AM
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why not make your own "stroker" kit? 4" 318/340 crank: ~$300. eagle 5140 rods (one step above stock+arp bolts) $239 diamond racing strocker pistons $500 a set. there you go. add a little for your choice in rings and bearings. your still way under $2000. add about $125 for internal balancing. your still under. check www.mancinracing.com under A engine stuff. id try to get both the edelbrock heads and the kit. check into places like www.hughesengines.com for stage II and III ebrocks or a few pass through ebay now and then. ebrock gets 420 hp with there heads a performer rpm (dual plane) intake performer rpm cam (supposed to match other parts for 1500-6000 rpm band duration 308/316) and ebrock 750 carb.
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  #7  
Old 08-20-2001, 02:00 PM
mr_340 mr_340 is offline
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Thumbs up Stroker Engine

I think I'd build up the stroker short block first. You can always add the Edelbrock heads later. That's just the way I like to do it, build the solid foundation (short block) and add power later as I can afford it.

I have a couple of Mopar buddies in Austin. I'm sure they'd be glad to help out. E-mail at Mr_340@att.net and I can forward it to them. Jim
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  #8  
Old 08-20-2001, 03:04 PM
Plum Crazy Chris Plum Crazy Chris is offline
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Well, I've run the numbers and it looks like ~$5,000 for the stroker (Curious' #s) with Ebrock heads, Air Gap intake, 800 cfm carb, (Jims451 machining #s), cam, headers and exhaust and all the other goodies.....

This may take awhile.
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  #9  
Old 08-20-2001, 03:20 PM
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you may not need that much machining. you dont have to do any crank/rod work since your getting new ones (except for balance job) you gotta get it bored/honed and a few other things. you might try a thermoquad carb. they flow 800/850 from the factory and sell for $25 on ebay. they re a cheap rebuild also. im working on a cnc'ed carb spacer that adapts a tq to square bore pattern without all the problems of the current adapters. tqs have small primaries for good low end and huge 1.5" secondaries. even the racing rebuild is supposed to have good low end torque.
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  #10  
Old 08-20-2001, 03:23 PM
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another idea is to use the search function on this forum and look way back for the key words "twin turbo". just humor me and try it. theres some good info buried in there.
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  #11  
Old 08-20-2001, 03:55 PM
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I know you were asking about stroking the 340, but for the money, I would just buy a MP 360 shortblock (I think $1,150 to $1,200) and bolt the Edelbrock heads onto it.
I haven't looked into all the specifics, but I think the Short block has 10:1 pistons and the MP 292/0.509" cam installed. These will work great with the Edelbrock heads and Valve springs and the Performer RPM intake. The whole thing might cost $3,000? It should make just as much Peak HP as the 416" stroker, but you will give up a ft/lbs of torque on the low end, and you may have to wind the 360 a few Hundred RPM more than the stroker engine to get peak HP.
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  #12  
Old 08-20-2001, 04:17 PM
Plum Crazy Chris Plum Crazy Chris is offline
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Curious, I've tried to keep up with the TT318 projects and discussion, are you suggesting forced induction? I have an old TQ, and a website of a guy that rebuilds them (never heard any feedback on him though), new rods would save some machine work too and cut the costs some....

Jims451, I hadn't thought of that, that sounds like a really great way to go, fairly cheap, all new castings, etc. Can you bore out the new shortblocks to 340 size? I thought you could with the earlier blocks, and then read something about the new ones having "extra material" which I read as more bore.

Do you know if that MP cam is comparable to the Comp Cams one used in the MM 340 buildup?

Thanks guys, this really helps!
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  #13  
Old 08-20-2001, 04:27 PM
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well im not necessarilly suggesting it but IMO id be sooo jealous of any one with a ebrock headed 416 twin turbo. that would being bad @$$ on the street and strip. the turbo lag can actually be a good thing. if you run in a class iwth restricted tire size (like no more than 10" of tread) its great. the boost doesnt come in right a way so you dont spin the tires so hard and dont break as many parts. its like a "soft touch" torque converter or progressive nitrous. might be cheaper im just suggesting you take a look and see what you can afford/fabricate.
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  #14  
Old 08-20-2001, 04:54 PM
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Cool 340 Performance

Chris, you and I are thinking along the same lines. I am building my 340 for low end stoplight racing. It is .030" over, and will have the Air Gap intake, a 650 Holley mech. sec. carb, K&N substack and filter, hipo fuel and oil pumps, windage tray, and a healthy Comp Cams bump stick. I ought to be putting 330 horses to the desert floor easy. I would like to go the stroker route too, the 416 cid setup. I know it's gonna be expensive, but other than buying the kit, I already have the machine work done. I would like the Edelbrock heads, but I am going to install a set of '71 360 heads that are already ported and polished. I plan to have them and the intake extrude honed.
For exhaust, my only options are stock manifolds or fenderwells. I chose the stock '68-'70 340 manifolds, and will have them extrude honed as well. The reason for those is that they are really the only thing I can get at the moment to fit. The car itself is a '65 Dart, and anything else won't clear the sterring box. When Schumacher puts out their headers for this application, I will go with them.
I wanted to go with more carburation, but at this altitude, I can't have too much or the car will bog down really badly. You don't have that problem.
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Old 08-20-2001, 05:00 PM
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i dont have the email anymore but i was quoted at something like $800 for a setof aluminum heads and a intake. think it was like $300 for the intake alone.
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Old 08-20-2001, 06:00 PM
Plum Crazy Chris Plum Crazy Chris is offline
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That sounds really cool 65 Dart. I talked to some extrude hone guys, but they said it was really expensive. I can't think of anything better than exhaust manifolds that are extrude honed!

Curious, $800 for Ebrock Aluminum heads!?! I would like that URL if you can find it. I'll order them today! Did you say the intake was included in that price?

Anyone want to go in on a set of heads, maybe we can get a volume discount. I thought I read that this website was getting together a page to do that very same thing.....anyone know how that turned out?
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  #17  
Old 08-20-2001, 06:07 PM
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$800 for heads and intake? i wish! that was the price to extrude hone them. they take platic empregnated sand-cement like mixture and force it through . thats what cost $800. my bet is a set of TTI headers (fit almost everything) cost about the same as extrude honed manifolds and perform much better.
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  #18  
Old 08-20-2001, 06:13 PM
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i think ill stroke my 318 for one of my trucks (see: is it a chevy or a dodge) maybe big block for other one. everyone has headers for trucks (not big enough though) even if they didnt i wouldnt mind cutting into the fenderwells (yeah like id really have to with all that room) i plan on building a race truck and it wont have fender wells any ways (fiberglass frontends dont come with fender wells) imagine all the room for me to work on it. no fender wells AND tilt front end. heck itll almost be fun to work on. i know you guys dont have trucks im just throwing out some useless info.
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Old 08-21-2001, 12:18 PM
Jims451 Jims451 is offline
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Speaking of small block stroker engines, I wish someone made a longer (steel) connecting rod, maybe 6.5" to help restore the rod ratio/angle when using the 4.00" crank. The tall 9.6" deck height could handle a longer rod and there should still be room on the piston where the pin won't be in the rings, expecially if the new rod used the smaller and lighter Chevy sized piston pin diameter.

I suggested the MP short block and Edelbrock heads because it will make good power for an affordable price, since you mention you don't want to spend $5,000 on the engine which is easy to do when building stroker engines.

Some of the costs that can kill a car budget are not directly related to the basic engine.
You may have to upgrade the transmission, torque converter, cooling system and fuel system.
Depending on how fast the car is going you might need specific saftey equipment like a roll cage, sub-frame connectors, driveshaft loop, SFI spec dampner and flexplate/flywheel, aftermarket axles, or even a stronger driveshaft.
A good exhaust system like the TTI could cost around $800 with headers, mufflers, tubing, etc.
A good fuel system with an electric pump, fuel cell, AN fittings, bradied lines, etc can cost $500 to $1,000, not including the cost of the carb.

Also consider that the edelbrock headed 360 I mentioned should put most cars into the low 12's, any faster and you will need a roll bar to race at an NHRA track.

With the money you save on the engine you can get a good exhaust system, ignition system, fuel system, cooling system, rocker arms, etc.
Then your car will be setup to handle an even more powerful engine when/if you decide to build a stroker short block. Since by this time you might be at or above 500 HP, you should start off with a stronger race block anyhow.
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Old 08-21-2001, 12:33 PM
Plum Crazy Chris Plum Crazy Chris is offline
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JIms451, you make some really good points, thank you for your input! With the MP 360 shortblock/Ebrock head combo, do you think an old Ebrock Torker 340 intake and TQ carb would work well, or is it just outdated technology?
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Old 08-21-2001, 02:56 PM
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a tq wont bolt up to a torker (as far as i know) im gonna try to solve that problem. im thinking a spacer with small primaries and maybe those *swirl grooves* like some of the newer spacers. the secondaries will prolly be open to give more plenum volume. it will be a tapered shape. the tq's secondaries stick out further than the edge of the intake. ill taper it so it angles down to the square bore intake patern. when ever this thing is done ill test one and maybe pass out a few if i notice anything good. i think i might keep my smog pump. i ve been reading about how people take the smog pumps and turn them into vacuum pumps. it sucks out the air under neath the piston so there is less drag and the piston can go down the bore easier. i think it could also be hooked up to the power assist to supply more vacuum for the brakes. and the 3rd reason is it can be plumbed into water injection. the faster the pump spins the more pressure it builds therefore injecting more water. and i recently found that a smog pump drains only about 3hp.
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Old 08-21-2001, 03:27 PM
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Question Stroker or heads? ATTN: Curious

In your place, I'd do the stoker first - reason?...You are already doing the shortblock, so it would be no particularly big deal to put the stroker in. Once it's together and running in the car, the heads become a progressive bolt on wiithout pulling the engine again, as you would have to do if you did the heads first and later did the stroker. Also, the stroker will greatly improve your bottom end torque and doing the heads before the stroker will kill some bottom end. Old adage - "You can't beat cubic inches" or, cubic money. On another subject - Can you tell me the T/Q person you ran across. I'm doing a T/Q on my 440/452 towing motor and I can't find anybody for parts or tuning info. One guy, on another forum sent me to an outfit that wanted to do a $500 rebuild on my carb - I'm just not up for that, financially. I'm looking for a source for jets, metering rods, floats and tuning tips. Thank you, Doug
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  #23  
Old 08-21-2001, 03:56 PM
Plum Crazy Chris Plum Crazy Chris is offline
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Doug,
I would tend to agree with you, but my bottom end looks pretty decent, except the piston tops (grungy/rusty) and my J heads look shot, so I think the heads are were I need to go first. It may be that it would cost me nearly the same to buy a MP shortblock as bore my 340 and get new pistons, I'll have to price the machine work. But man, I'd love to have a 416 cu smallblock!

the link to the TQ builder is

http://www.geocities.com/thermoquads/

I haven't used him yet, nor no anyone who has, so if it works out well for you let us know. It looks pretty cheap to me, but then there is the cost for parts that need to be replaced..... so we'll see.
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Old 08-21-2001, 04:02 PM
Doug Wilson Doug Wilson is offline
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Default T/Q lead

Thanx for the lead. If it works out, I'll let you know.
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