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  #1  
Old 08-30-2001, 06:32 PM
Swinger321 Swinger321 is offline
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Post PAGING TT440! : Turbo V-8 Question

Hey TT440!

I am originally from San Angelo Tx. Now in Air Force, stationed at Clovis,NM.

Anyways, on to my question.


I know you have replied to one of my turbo questions, so I know you know some good info.

I have a 69' Dart Swinger project that I am building. I am always interested in more performance. How hard would it be to make a SINGLE turbo set-up work on a SB? (like the GN set-up)

Also, I looked at your site and (by the way your car is very nice) I was wondering what does your Oxygen sensor plug into? Do you have to use a injector like the one in TTcapri?



If I were to be interested in turboing my SB A-body, (single) what would be the turbo I should be looking for? I have a few things already, just need the turbo, the intercooler, the wastegate, I can bend my own exhaust tubing. Any info would be great.


swinger
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Old 08-30-2001, 08:44 PM
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While you are asking for TT440's help I thought I might just butt in here a little.

I'm actually building a single turbo small block at the moment.

I'm using a 360 because off the shelf pistons are cheap, TRW 8:1 forgings. The bottom end will be fairly stock except for the addition of arp rod bolts and main studs. The heads are "J" heads with 2.02in and 1.6ex, and with crane springs 99838 and retainers. I'm using an edelbrock torker 2 manifold drilled for injector bosses and a 4bbl throttle body. The turbo is a large Rajay unit capable of 450hp+ flow, along with a 42mm turbonetics wastegate. You can buy large turbo's that will flow 1000hp or more but expect to pay big dollars for them. The reason most guys use twins is because they can pick up turbo's off things like little turbo Dodge's and Buick's from wrecking yards alot cheaper than a new or reco'ed large turbo will cost. Most guys will tell you that smaller turbo's spool up quicker and that you will get on boost quicker with twins rather than a single. This is only correct if you go too big with your turbo. You need to work out how much HP you want and then get the turbo to suit. If you go too large you will have poor throttle response but when it comes on boost............ WHOA MOMMA .....Hang on to your underwear!!!!! Too small a turbo will come on boost quickly at low rpm but will practically hit a brick wall up high. Twins are more forgiving on the sizing but if you screw them up, it will be just the same. Now camshaft is important and you would be better off with a stock cam if you don't know what to look for. However I'm been looking around at various cams available and I've found that the Powermax range of cams from Crane Cams work very well with forced induction applications. They have very wide lobe separations which makes for low overlaps and therefore your not pumping your boost out the exhaust.

I hope this helps a little and I'll let you guys know how I go with mine. It should be ready within 2 months.
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Old 08-30-2001, 09:19 PM
dewme5 dewme5 is offline
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there are a couple good reasons to go wiht single or dual. i went with dual, because.. 1. they were real easy to find. all sorts of turbo fords to rob from. not to mention they were only $75 a piece. and they can be found cheaper. they support between 300 and 350 hp a piece. (.63 A/R). 2. the exhaust routing is pretty simple with a single. routing that extra exhaust tube around the engine was something that i didnt want to mess with. from the junk yard turbo list on yahoo. seems like the hx35 (off of a dodge turbo diesel... look for these off of guys upgrading the diesel to an hx40) will support in the neighborhood of 700 hp. and is a really well built turbo.

runing twins, both are smaller than the one. which really helps out with the mounting locations. especially if you move the battery to the trunk.. you can put them right behind the headlights. as for the big real differances... what do you prefer? do you like the look of 1 big turbo, or 2 small ones. just pick the style that you want.. go with it. just make sure that you get the right ones. there are a couple of good websites out with turbo calculators. punch in your cubic inches, rpm, singles or twins, power wants.. etc. spits the right ones out for you. keep in mind that these are available turbos. you can have some custom made too. but i have less than $500 for my whole system for the turbos... customs.... well over $4000 when all is said and done.

http://www.turbofast.com.au/javacalc.html check them out.
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Old 08-30-2001, 11:32 PM
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Default that about sums it up.

As you can see, I'm not hte only turbohead on the board. You can run a single by routing both manifolds to the turbo. It all depends upon what you want.
I went with twins because it was MUCH cheaper than a large single for a 440. It also carries (as a friend puts it) a high coefficient of nifty.
I paid $632 each for my custom built hybrids. A large single built to my specs would have been at least $2000.
I'm going twins on the cop car because I get 'em for $35 in the locak salvage yard.

Thanks for the note on the car. I've put too much time into that thing. It's amazing how much more info I've found now that the system is up and running. I sure could have used these resources when building the beast.
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  #5  
Old 08-31-2001, 01:14 AM
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that turbo calculator sure is weird. heres what it suggests for a intercooled, twin turbo 383.
Quote:

MAKE TYPE COMPRESSOR TRIM TURBINE HSG A/R

Garrett T3 60 1.06

brake horse power:
681.2782137669068
air flow lbs/minute: 62.70484679510611
max rpm: 6000
aprox litters: 6.4
boost: 12lbs
no wait a minute! are they trying to tell me i can use a turbo thats smaller than the turbo coupe @that rpm and boost???
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  #6  
Old 08-31-2001, 02:09 AM
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Check again you probably didn't select single turbo.

It's probably telling you to use 2 x TO3's, which would be about right.
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  #7  
Old 08-31-2001, 08:11 AM
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The twins vs single argument will go on for all eternity. I prefer twins for all of the reasons listed above and some others, such as getting the exhaust out of the turbo (two smaller pipes directly to duals). Although it is not absolutely necessary, a small balance tube between the exhaust manifolds is a good idea with twins. It is also much easier to get enough inlet air to two smaller turbos than one big one.

Twins do spool up quicker than a single of similar capacity. Rotaitonal inertia is a strange thing, and very dependant on the diameter of what is rotating, and the bigger the turbines and compressors, the slower they will react to input.

A single will be slightly more efficient than twins, do to less parasitic losses.

To mount a single is easy. Use your standard cast iron manifolds, and connect a crossover tube between the outlets with as large a pipe as will fit ( 2 1/2 would be good). Weld on a turbo flange, with a stub pipe, to one of the manifolds, wherever the turbo will fit. A good spot is usually pointing forward toward where the battery is (put the battery in the trunk). Weld on a flange and stub pipe for a wastegate, if you are not using a turbo with an integral wastegate. Try to find manifolds that have not been run with leaded fuel, as I have heard that the lead can mess up the weld strength.

Be a little careful with the turbo selectors. While I haven't played with them myself, a couple of turbo and accessory sources I deal with said they can give some less than optimum suggestions. I would talk to several turbo suppiers also, and see what they have to say.

Where is Clovis? I am in the Minneapolis area.

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  #8  
Old 08-31-2001, 09:42 AM
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Default Just FYI...

We have Instant Messaging on this board, you do not have to post PAGING XXX, you can IM someone here and they will be notified via email!

Jusy FYI...
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  #9  
Old 08-31-2001, 09:57 AM
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Default we tried that software

The guys at www.dallasturbo.com and I sat down and tried that software package. It's horribly flawed on larger engines.
The shop paid fo rthe full package, not just the freebie stuff on the web.
The main page gave a similar response to what the 383 asked for. twin T3 60 compressors are very versatile, but not nearly enough for the 440.
Another page on that software allows you to input more data and see the point on the compressor map. It again suggested the T3 60 but the mark was way off the side of the map. Switching compressors back and forth showed the T4 60-1 to be the closest. That's what we decided on last year.
Unfortunately, there's no good information on the turbines. I really wish more info was available. They're holding me back right now. It's going to be a guessing game. I'll try to swing by the shop today and pick up the new turbine housings and see what happens.
Bummer that it's supposed to rain until Monday. We've got a car show this weekend.
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  #10  
Old 08-31-2001, 10:41 AM
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Default 408 build up.

Since I am inbetween both the 383 and the 440 what would you suggest for a TT 408. I am pretty determined that I will do the twin turbo. Once I replace the 360 in my mirada. It has some end play and If I am going to replace the bottom end I mind as well do it right. So I am going to go with the short block 408 I see around and then build it from there. I might go with an ineffeicent cam for an N/A motor so that when I do the twin turbos It opens up and I do not have to pull the motor and replace the cam. (If I can find my own cherry picker I may decide to replace the cam).

I am going to go with a 9:1 compression and worry about head gaskets later. That should be the only problem I should have with a higher compression and some boost. I run 93, 94 all of the time anyway so having to use premioum is no big deal.

So what type of turbo would you suggest. And what kind of car had one of those since the turbos will come from the junk yard.

Thanks
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  #11  
Old 08-31-2001, 11:22 AM
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i dont know if id go with 9:1. the calculator said 9:1 under 12 lbs of boost (thats a reasonable amount to expect) equates out to 14:1 static or something and the recommended gas is 110 octane.
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  #12  
Old 08-31-2001, 12:15 PM
turbododge turbododge is offline
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I am with Curious on the compression, and would prefer 8 to 1 if you are going to go to 12 psi, especially on a carb, where you won't have wonderful mixture control. Even at 8 to 1, I would say 12 psi is too high for pump gas without water injection.

I am running 8 to 1 in the TT340 and with a carb would not go over 8 psi without water injection. Detonation started around 10, but a safety cushion is advisable. With EFI I can go 1 to 2 psi higher before the detonation starts. This is with 92 octane pump premium and ignition retard.

I currently run 14 psi, 8 to 1, EFI, ingition retard in the EFI, and water injection on 92 octane.

I also found that using flat top pistons, with no valve relief, gave considerably less detonation than high squish, relieved valve area pistons, at least on my 2.02 valve 340 heads.
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Old 08-31-2001, 01:44 PM
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The reduced detonation with the non-relieved pistons makes sense; any sharp points in the combustion chamber (either head or piston) will initiate pinging... that's one reason why hot rodders polish the inside of the combustion chambers. With a turbo, it's even more important to keep things smooth!

Turbododge, what kind of water injection are you using? Did you make it yourself or buy one of the kits? I'm planning on using water injection for my turbo project and have seen plenty of pros and cons, what's your take?
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  #14  
Old 08-31-2001, 01:58 PM
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i plan on using a home made boost regulated setup. you run a line from boost source to the water bottle. that way as boost increases so does water output. im sure my instructions arent very clear but i hope you can understand.
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Old 08-31-2001, 02:03 PM
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Goose; I am running an old Edelbrock Varijection, with the add on monitor gauge. I modified it so that it starts pumping early and is then instant on under pressure. That way I get better flow response under a quick hit of boost. I spray right onto the turbo blades with a 50/50 mix of water and isopropyl alcohol.

It works O.K., I have been using it for many years, but it is not the best because I have to put the water in before the intercooler, and then the intercooler tries to condense it back out. I does a good job of knocking down the detonation, and you can feel an increase in power, even in non detonation situations.

I know Corky Bell disagrees, but I don't see any way to run 14 psi on pump gas without the water. There is a very good test result graph in the Hugh McInnis book that shows what water can do for detonation and brake specific fuel consumption. He is a big supporter of water for anything above low boost applications.

I am saving my nickels for an Aquamist system. It is programmable, high pressure and injects the water at the throttle body, where it should be. Hopefully by next year!

Just for reference, the Aquamist distributor/installer that I talked to said that the GN guys are running up to 28 pounds of boost on pump gas, with a bunch of water/alcohol mix put in at the throttle body.
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Old 08-31-2001, 02:10 PM
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i thought people dont like to spray into the impeller cuz it eats it up like sand blaster. ????
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Old 08-31-2001, 02:31 PM
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Curious: I have heard that a lot recently, also. 15 years ago, everyone was doing it on regular basis. It may have to do with what you spray on the blades. If you use methanol, I would expect it would eat the aluminum blades very quickly. One of my turbos has over 30K miles on it and the blades look just like they did when I got it. Granted, the water is not actually on all that much of the time ( only above 8 psi), but I would think I would see some damage if there were going to be any. The old suck through systems all ran air/gas mixture over the blades also, and were O.K.. When I watch the water come out of the nozzles, with the turbo spooled, in neutral, the water pretty much disappears when it hits the low pressure area about 1/8 of an inch in front of the blades, so that may help.

The pressure bottle system works fairly well, but has one big problem. The amount of water sprayed is only dependant only on the boost pressure, and is not related to the rpm, so you will have way to much, or too little, water under varying rpms. Since you will have full boost over a 3000 rpm range, if you go from 3000 to 6000 you really should double the water output, but with a pressure bottle the output will not change.
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Old 08-31-2001, 03:23 PM
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So maybe there's some kind of inexpensive setup to increase water flow relative to RPM... maybe a positive displacement pump driven off the engine? This could be hooked in series with the existing boost referenced pressure line and switching cicuit. Or maybe a cheap flow regulator hooked to the tachometer circuit. I know the Aquamist stuff has all that but it isn't in the DIY spirit to just buy something

From what I've read, water injection is really the only way to go for high performance, high boost situations. Not only does it cool your intake charge about as well as an intercooler, the water vapor in the fuel/air mixture also increases the knock resistance by a large amount! A lot of people put down water injection, but the only valid objection that they can muster is "well, uh, you're screwed if you run out of water"... but if you have half a brain you can put water in your resivoir when it gets low.
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Old 08-31-2001, 03:39 PM
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Hit the swaps and try to find an old Edelbrock Varijection. The spare control box I have I got for $5.00 at a swap. It varies the water by rpm and vacuum/boost. Someone said one went on E-bay for $300, but that is insane, I would bet you could find one for $25, they sold a bunch of them in the 70"s and 80's.
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Old 08-31-2001, 03:56 PM
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I found a water injection system on topendperformance.com, they explain how it works pretty well.
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Old 08-31-2001, 04:00 PM
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sorry, that's topendperf.com
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Old 08-31-2001, 04:08 PM
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I remember that about 20 years ago water injection was a common thing to buy for knock control, used to be able to go to Napa and get a setup for fairly cheap. The Varijection sounds like a good option; I'll keep my eyes open for one.
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Old 09-01-2001, 04:39 AM
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Hey Turbododge, Do you have a website with extra info about your set-up?

That a Really neat set-up!! What's it run??
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Old 09-01-2001, 03:54 PM
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I just happen to be running 12 pounds of boost, and 9.0:1 c/r this is on a new magnum motor. the crate 360/380. But, i am on head gasket #3 right now. this time i am switching to coppers, and going to drop the compression just a tiny bit buy switching to a .052 I am also adding arp studs. seems that with just the 4 head bolts, and shooting the combustion pressure thru the roof. head gaskest are pretty easy to blow.!
im running fuel injection, with a knock sensor. it never detected knock, we couldnt find any knock on the dyno graph, nor did anybody hear any detonation. so i am hoping that it was just the gasket wanting to give out. they were a new set of fel-pros. now i am going wiht sce coppers. hope this is going to make the differance. when the heads are off, i am going to clean up the exhaust just a little bit. and also have the decks checked to make sure they are perfectly flat. When i get the chance to o-ring the block, that is going to happen!
Also, ive been reading up on the ford powerstroke intercooler. its $200 new from Ford. Absolutely huge!!, and almost a perfect fit for my Barracuda. Water injection is something that is high on my list, just wonder if there is a way that i can mix a seperate system, and my holley commander 950. use the nitrous settings to trigger the system. somehow have the selanoid activation run thru a hobbs switch (boost pressure switch from napa. $14 and adjustable to trigger between 4 and 12 psi) so above a certain rpm it would come on and adjust. but actually only trigger above 8psi. hmmmm.. brain storming time!!!
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Old 09-01-2001, 05:04 PM
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No web site, wish I had the time and talent to do one!

Dewme: I think you are on the right track with your water injection ideas. I currently use my Varijection in conjunction with a Hobbs switch and solenoid. Varijection gets things running a bit before I need it, and then when the Hobbs trips, I have instant water to the nozzles.

I would think you could turn the system on with any rpm switch you have available. I haven't messed with the nitrous systems in an EFI setup, but if they are rpm triggered, I would just turn them on in stages. If you have 3 stages available, you would just run 3 solenoid valves and 3 sets of nozzles to get more water at increased rpm. The Hobbs could be put on the input to the solenoid valves, so everything else would be powered up and ready when the boost came up. The water source could be as simple as a window washer pump and bottle, that is what Edelbrock used.

It sounds like you have a very good understanding of what you need, and I think you will get it to work well.
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Old 09-01-2001, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dewme5
somehow have the selanoid activation run thru a hobbs switch (boost pressure switch from napa. $14 and adjustable to trigger between 4 and 12 psi) so above a certain rpm it would come on and adjust. but actually only trigger above 8psi. hmmmm.. brain storming time!!!
are you asking how to only trigger above 8psi? if so i can offer a suggestion. but it ll turn on at 7psi. use a nitrous safety switch. its used to turn off nitrous when fuel pressure drops below 7psi so you dont ventilate your pistons. it could easily be wired in to shut off water below 7psi of boost.
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Old 09-01-2001, 10:46 PM
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no.. i was saying i would use the hobbs switch that i already have to turn it on. and the hobbs is adjustable. so you can set it for anywhere between 4 and 12 psi.

check out this website. its a pretty detailed home made water injection setup. good, bad, problems and fixes. its the foundation that i am going to use.

http://home.ccci.org/Key_Information...rInjection.htm
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Old 09-02-2001, 08:07 PM
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When I ran a B&M 162 off the side of a hemi six, I used a Holley water injection set-up.

To activate it I used an adjustable Nitrous fuel pressure switch as was mentioned before. I put it in the fuel line and adjusted the fuel pressure down to 2 psi and then I adjusted the Hobbs switch down until it was closing when 2psi was reached. I then put into the manifold (and returned the fuel pressue back to normal) and hooked up the water injection system to it. With a 50/50 mix of ethanol/water it worked fantastic.
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