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  #1  
Old 09-01-2001, 04:43 AM
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Ausydad Ausydad is offline
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Default auto vs. 4 spd

Me again,
It was suggested to me earlier that my SB Duster with 2.45 gears would benefit better from a 4 gear than the 727 thats in my closet. I know this would be a pain to modify and install (especially since my car now has a console) but I was wondering what you guys thought. The motor is a mild build on a 318 and I'm moving to NE Indiana in a few weeks. 727 is in my closet and I have a buddy with a 4 spd from a '65 Valiant he will sell with pedal cluster, 2 shifters (1Hurst), and all linkage for $75. With the alt., motor and gearing, is it going to benefit me enough to make the conversion worth it? If I do go with a 4spd., should I readjust the build on the motor for more torque or horse?
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Old 09-01-2001, 05:10 AM
zenboy zenboy is offline
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For that price, I'll buy the whole kit and caboodle from you for $100 and bam, no decisions to make, and you made $25 for nothing.

Not even going into tuning your car for a four speed (remember, when it's not all fluid controlled, there is always the chance that leaving your foot on the floor will leave you with a puddle of ex-A833 like parts when you do drop the hammer. Not to mention your engine.), it really depends on what you want to do, I mean, personally, I want to drop in a four speed. No questions asked, when I think "Muscle Car", I think big stick shift. Automatics are for luxury barges. As I understand it, the switch isn't incredibly hard, though there can be some neat eccentricities when it comes to mounting (floor pans cut, etc.). But if you want the four stick, $75 is gonna be hard to beat. I'm currently chasing my tail looking for stickshifts, or at least some people who have ever done a Richmond or Muncie swap with an adaptor. I mean, look up the price of a Keisler 5-speed swap kit. $2500 - That's without pedals (notably, harder to find than the actual gearbox).
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Old 09-01-2001, 06:15 AM
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My goal is to have my daily driver that's quicker than Clinton's zipper and launches hard. Four gears are definitely more fun than autos. My concerns were the console (is there a shifter to fit in it? or do I have to grind off the mounts I just welded in there?), and questions about horse vs. torque since I still have to get my intake. I have available two Edelbrocks, a 340 single plane, and a performer. My carb is an Edel 600 cfm (#1400). The other motor is .060 over with 360 heads and 318 crank ( which I thought about 360 crank). My headers are still Hedmans until I can afford the plated TTI's and I have dual 2 1/2 with a crossover and dumps.
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Old 09-01-2001, 09:10 AM
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I have to say that a 4spd will help. No doubt about it. I alllllways liked rowing my own boat. A manual car tends to like a slightly higher gear in the rear. In getting greasy with freinds, I have noted, the carb had to be tweeked just a little in the pump shot area. This just could be a side effect of the actual engine differances. Things like ; theres no stall to deal with. Engauge and go. To low of a low RPM and it lugs. Step on the gas it reacts bad. Or even worse I should say. It was always an aftermarket carb. I don't know how a stock one would react. It shouldn't be a big thing.
No doubt, it'll be a project. Replaceing the hump or just a cut out. Do you have the little plate that gets mounted/welded to the frame. The "Z" bar mounts in it on the left.
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Old 09-01-2001, 12:12 PM
Rich33 Rich33 is offline
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I recently did this in a Duster with a 360. It wasn't real difficult, but I dunno what you're gonna do with your console. You'll need a 4 speed hump for an A body. Maybe you can get the one out of that Valiant. That's much easier than trying to fabricate one. My Duster had 2.45's in it, too, but I had another rear with 2.94's that I swapped in. The car runs good, but really could use the 8 3/4 laying in the garage with the 3.55's. You might be a tad dissappointed with those 2.45's


In the end, if you can get all of that four speed stuff for only 75 bucks, do it.
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  #6  
Old 09-01-2001, 12:22 PM
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A 4 spd with 2.45s?.....never not unless your last name is LUK,youll go thru discs very fast because youll have tons of slippage just to get it rolling,mine lasted 8000 mi with 3.23s with tall tires,flywheel looked so bad I had to resurface it too,most likely you have an 8.25 diff with those gears,finding a 3.21 geared 8.25 from an a body should be simple.Remember a 1965 4 spd doesnt use a typical driveshaft yoke so youll need the original d/s,although a competent Driveline shop can sell you an upgrade replacement thats as strong as a 4 wheel drive shaft,I think itd be easier to swap rears and get deeper gears and add a stall conv around 2500 rpms,I have a 65 valiant 360 4 spd,so if you want to sell those parts let me know,.........PRO......
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Old 09-01-2001, 03:54 PM
Doug Wilson Doug Wilson is offline
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Default auto vs 4 spd

PRO is really right. Somewhere, I once read a comparison of rear end ratios between auto and stick to get equivalent launches(using a stock convertor). I think for your rear gear, you'll need somthing like 3.71 or 3.91 with the 4 speed. Don't forget that your stock convertor gives you enormous torque multiplication at stall. Unless you change a lot of other stuff, you'll not be pleased.
....all said with no ulterior motive.....uhhh.....how much for all the stick stuff.............my email is ThunderboltRanch@msn.com.....this from Doug, who if he had the stick stuff would start a Barracuda project much sooner.
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  #8  
Old 09-01-2001, 08:27 PM
Mr. Trans Am Mr. Trans Am is offline
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I wouldn't. Your going on a 2000 mile trip soon, you need the car. And remember when the guys at car craft went to install their screamin' deal 4 spd? It was fragged big time, you don't want that and then a cross country trip.

Also do you like 4 spds? Ever have one? Lot of work there for something you might not even like if it is your first time. If you dig the shift for yourself thing, then it might pay. Me, I drove my 360 truck for a year or so and decided it was enough, rowing a boat in traffic sucks, especially if you like to eat, babe watch, talk on phone, play w/ radio, dig for stuff in console, etc.
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  #9  
Old 09-01-2001, 08:49 PM
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Hey guys,
Seems to be a lot of different opinions out there. I do enjoy the shift (yes, i agree it can be a pain in rush hour), as I've had manuals before. I had a '62 Econoline with 3 on da tree and a 78 T/A with a 4. I know the conversion would be difficult although I haven't got to do one yet. Drilling the crank for bushing, tunnels, removing the console, etc. I picked up the box and all the components. The guy did change his mind on the price though, he gave it up for FREE! I like the idea of the shift, I'm just trying to figure out the final performance outcome as well as hours spent doing it. I haven't heard from the two guys I was hoping to, Moparmandan and Dilley340. The 318 is 360 heads, .060 slugs, .454/304cam and I would like to change to 3:55 out back. I'm still confused. The guy that gave me the box also offered up the rear diff as well, no charge.
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  #10  
Old 09-01-2001, 09:03 PM
Mr. Trans Am Mr. Trans Am is offline
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Hmm....free stuff. hmm.

Just be sure you have EVERYTHING before you begin. how 'bout that z bar mount? pedals?

Why are you leaving cali? if that's the hawthrone I know that is where I want to be. Indy weather will suck after socal IMO.
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  #11  
Old 09-01-2001, 09:19 PM
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Hey Mr. Trans Am,
I'm going home to Indiana 'cause I'm tired of working about 120 hrs. pr wk just to make rent and feed two kids. I lucked on the free parts, and my Duster is being trailered home. It's my /6 Dart that's being driven by my wife. No, I'm not driving my rust free Duster in that winter. I don't about this Zbar, but the pedals are being dismounted and given to me next week. I missed the car craft article. Any chance you could email a .zip form?
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  #12  
Old 09-01-2001, 09:27 PM
Mr. Trans Am Mr. Trans Am is offline
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car craft article was in like Nov. 98' issuse. Swap was in 3 spd car to 4 spd, not alot of work there, they just got a bum 4 cogger. Don't have it handy. Since it's being trailered go for it.
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  #13  
Old 09-01-2001, 09:48 PM
Doug Wilson Doug Wilson is offline
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Default auto vs 4 spd

I lived in your parts for awhile, so I don't blaim you for leaving. What amazes me is how many people stay. It's a great place for a single guy - plenty of slunts - but no place to raise kids. That's the big reason I got outta there. Raised 6 here in Orneegun & it was the best choice I ever made. Cost me a lot in terms of career and money, but my kids came first, and it worked. I have great, drug free, booze free(as teenagers), Christian kids, who are a credit to our country. One left at home, now - my 11 year old daughter - who wants to be a MOPAR drag racer, (when she isn't jumping horses) when she grows up . Did I mention a Barracuda project? That'll be hers..................If you change your mind about the stick stuff, please hang on to my email address - ThunderboltRanch@msn.com - I could get the parts picked up, so you wouldn't even have to move 'em or ship 'em. I'd be happy to give you a fair price for them........ I wish you a lot of good fortune when you get to where you're going. ......all this stuff from the semi-conscious mind of...Doug
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  #14  
Old 09-01-2001, 09:50 PM
Doug Wilson Doug Wilson is offline
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Default auto vs 4 spd

By the way, I can give you the dimensions and a drawing for the pilot hole, if you need it.
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  #15  
Old 09-03-2001, 12:58 AM
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Thanks Doug, that would be great! The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a stick. If I have to drill the crank for the bushing, this would give me the excuse to go ahead and stroke it with a 360 crank, and I wanted to change my rear diff gears anyway. ( Iwas thinking 3:55). my original plan was a 475 h.p. BB/RB, 4spd., 3:55 in a narrowed rear. I've changed the plan a few times like we all do, but I still like the idea of the shift. Like I said, I've never done the exchange this way before, so any templates or advice, experience, things of that nature would be appreciated. My email is greg@southbaymopars.com
If I change my mind, I'll let you know. Otherwise I'll have a never used, just out of the crate J.W.Performance 727 for sale( another trans that was given to me). Talk soon. Thanks
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  #16  
Old 09-03-2001, 09:13 PM
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ausydad,you can go over to NAPA and buy their "conversion" pilot bushing,I used this in mine(360) but it was about .020 too big for the hole in ht e crank but my machine shop turned it down to correct dimensions,oh by the way there is a hole in the back of all cranks for machining purposes but not all cranks have the proper diameter for a bushing,also watch out for the correct depth in this hole as some are .125 too shallow and will trash your motor(thrust brg) if you manage to get it bolted up all the way.I f you lack any parts I probably have them and will trade or sell reasonably.I grew up in Indianapolis(1962-71) where are you headed? Good choice though I lived in LA what a rat race,have a safe trip........PRO.........ps Im in western Colo(Grand junction) and if you take I-70 youll go right thru it,let me know if you do.............PRO......
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  #17  
Old 09-03-2001, 09:45 PM
6pakman 6pakman is offline
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hey ausydad they justdid an article in eather mopar action or mopar muscle[ there last issues] about a swap in i beleave in an a body. they go thru the whole thing from start to finish. find it, you will find it right up your alley. also i use to own a auto e body. i sold it and bought a four speed e body. i will NEVER go back to an automatic. nothing can give you a thrill like having control of your shifting capabilities. i love it. good luck.
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  #18  
Old 09-03-2001, 11:47 PM
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The swap was from an M Body to a 69 Dart (it was even a column shift, they showed how to get around that, too). And this month's MM has them fixing the transmission (it was an aluminum case 833, which is apparently a ready made grenade), to make it sturdy. It was interesting, fairly easy stuff all around. Good article, very detailed.

Z
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  #19  
Old 09-04-2001, 02:30 AM
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I was just reading that article today about the aluminum cased A833 and the rebuild they did on it. I also went over to my other motor and did some more work on it ( it was a pretty slow day for towing). I found it already has a double roller chain and the marks on the crank show it was dated 3-00. Everything still looks pretty fresh. I don't know what cam is in it, so I'll go ahead and change that to the one I have with a fresh chain just 'cause. The trans is the old iron case (original out of a '65 273 Valiant). I also met a guy with a '64 318 4spd. Barracuda fastback who wouldn't ever buy an auto again. I'm trying to remember on the oil pans, is the 318 pan with the valley to the front or rear? Mr. Trans Am, have you found the template so I can measure the pilot that's in the back of the current crank? Not trying to rush, just have my brain wrapped on this and not much else. Anybody know what gears came in the rear end of the Valiant 273 manual? The guy that gave the trans is offering the original rear to match. Oh, by the way, I'm moving to Fort Wayne, my hometown.
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Old 09-04-2001, 11:35 AM
Mr. Trans Am Mr. Trans Am is offline
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Not sure, have to look. My mopar stuff is scattered everywhere. Finishing garage right now. Mayhem.
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  #21  
Old 09-04-2001, 01:04 PM
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This past summer I converted my 87 Diplomat to a 4 speed. I used F body (Aspen/Volare) parts to do this for the most part. I also used A body stuff for some of it (Bellhousing, MP clutch linkage kit, transmission, clutch fork). The late model Ram truck pilot bearing is made for this swap. It runs about $6.50 and comes ready to install. It is an adapter that presses into the crank centering ring and has an honest to goodness roller bearing inn the middle.

I run 2.94 gears with a SG. My motor is a 79 360 with a 340 4bbl cam and late model (pre Magnum) 318 2bbl heads, the "302" castings. MP ignition, original 3 cat exhaust. I get about 20 mpg highway with it. I run at about 3000 rpm on the highway, yes I fly. What I'd like is one of the later A833OD's, which are the aluminum ones in the magazine article. The I might get 25 mpg.

No more autos for me and if you can blow up a good cast iron A833 you're doing something right with the motor.

Steve
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  #22  
Old 09-04-2001, 01:51 PM
Secret Agent Toast Secret Agent Toast is offline
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hey, thought you might want an opion from a non-racer, daily driver... or maybe not... in that case just ignore this...

But when i was shopping around two years ago to buy my first mopar i was looking at a wonderful '68 convertable 440 GTX Clone with a stick & 4.10 gears in the rear. It was fun to drive, but I gotta say, that 1200 lbs truck clutch that the guy had put in there was murder to engage. If i had bought that car my left leg would have become twice the size of my right! Living in San Francisco, that GTX had to have a real heavy-duty clutch to keep it from buring out all the time on the hills behind that 440...

I wound up going with an Auto '68 Coronet, due to the GTX selling out from under me. And now that I'm engaged, and my girl sometimes drives my car, I'm really glad that I went with the Auto; otherwise she wouldn't be able to use the car at all. If you're planning to eventually put in a higher HP engine in the Dart, then you might make it undrivable by most due to the stiff clutch and the power under the hood.

just my 2 cents.

toast
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  #23  
Old 09-04-2001, 02:46 PM
Doug Wilson Doug Wilson is offline
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Default auto vs 4 spd

Sometimes, it's a really good thing if your girl can't drive your magic MOPAR!......just a meningless thought from...Doug
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Old 09-04-2001, 09:03 PM
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i would have to agree about a four speed living in san francisco. that would not work with all those hills there.that would play hell with my left foot
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  #25  
Old 09-05-2001, 02:14 AM
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Definitely, a 4spd. on hills would be a nightmare! I don't plan on having my wife drive my Duster, that's why I bought her a Dart. She says my car is too fast the way it is ( too fast, that's possible?). Anyway, I'm moving to mostly flatland and will find another Mopar for my winter driver and back up, so my Duster will only see the fun summer times. I want to enjoy it, but still make it last so my 3 yr. old son who is already obssessed with it can enjoy it, too. Thunderstruck, any chance of some part #'s for the bearing? How happy are you with those 2:94's?
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Old 09-05-2001, 02:58 AM
72Challenger 72Challenger is offline
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To change the subject, how much do you want for the 727? I'd be interested in upgrading from my 904, and I could be at your door in about 40 minutes (if the price is right!).
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  #27  
Old 09-05-2001, 01:54 PM
Doug Wilson Doug Wilson is offline
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Default 4 spd

Looks like evrybody wants to buy your stuff....including me!
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  #28  
Old 09-27-2001, 09:08 AM
Thunderstruck Thunderstruck is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ausydad
Thunderstruck, any chance of some part #'s for the bearing? How happy are you with those 2:94's?
Sorry about the delay,

MoPar part number is 53009180 and it's called a sleeve.
I Like the 2.94's. I had a set of 4.10's in a 64 Chrysler 300 that I drove from San Diego and back, it was ok too, but noisier. The 2.94's are fine for what I use my car for, commuting 150 miles per day and MPG is more important to me than low 60ft times. I have my 65 Cuda for the low 60 ft times. I am still loking for an A833 OD to run, I got the Diplomat up to 130 the other day and I figure I could push that higher with the OD.

Steve
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  #29  
Old 09-27-2001, 09:31 AM
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I only got one question, is this 4 speed the original one that came in the 65 Valiant? If it was a later model 4 speed swapped into the Valiant you should be fine, but the original 4 speeds in 66 and older A bodies had a Rod and Trunnion joint instead of a u-joint, so there was a flat flange at the rear of the tailishaft, instead of the slide in, input shaft, and U-joint that is much more common. Not sure if the pedals and things will work either, cause the A body went thru some major changes in the 67 model year, you may want to check out these things, before you pull your car all apart. PS: if that was an original 4 speed 65 Valiant, the parts car may be more rare and worth more then the Duster, just thought I'd make mention of that.
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  #30  
Old 09-27-2001, 11:23 AM
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The donor car is a well running 65 Valiant 273 with a mild cam, Edelbrock carb, fenderwell headers, A904, and a 8 3/4 rear.None of this seems to matter since I'm forced to sell the 4 spd. trans so I can move next week. Any one interested?
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