F.I. and cam for an efficient 440

[icycleboy]

I have a freshly built 440 in my '69 B-wagon (4000 lbs). It's a '67 block with the steel crank and a six-pack cam, 10,5:1 forged TRWs, stock, unmodified heads, stock cast iron manifold, an Edebrock 750 carb, the TTI headers and a 2,5" exhaust. I'm running the original 2,91 gear for now, but intend to get a 3,23 or 3,55 in the near future.

Here's the problem: While this combo makes plenty of power(and a beautiful rumble), my mileage is around 10mpg city and 13-14 hwy, and at this point it's getting a bit expensive for daily driving.

I could invest a few grand in some econo box for commuting, but I didn't build this car for sitting in a garage -I want to use my Mopar!

I'm in SoCal, and I'd like to find some solutions out here similar to the Rance port injected system discussed in one of the Mopar rags last year. From what I remember, It was a huge improvement in mileage and driveability, but at the cost of 2-3 grand. I understand the Holley Pro-Jection system is a dog, but maybe someone here knows better.

Mo-brethren, pass on your fuelish knowledge as to a workable solution. The intake, cam and induction are all up for review, and I'd like to keep it under $2500 total. Is 17mpg city possible?

[jensen32000]

I put the Holley Pro-jection on my 73 Jensen Interceptor which has a 72 440 mill in it. It is an older analog 502 system which is a 670 cfm 2 injector throtle body style system. Jensen actually was offering these as an option on their 360 Jensens in the mid eighties. I have heard lots of negative reports on the Pro-Jections, but mine works great. I never calculated the mileage but compared to the 440 Six Pack Dart its a lot less thirsty. I imagine with the ability to adjust fuel pressure and various settings you can tune it more geared towards economy. Hope this helps!

[OzHemi]

You might give B.D.S. (Blower Drive Service);in Whittier a call...I believe they deal in some F.I. set-ups. Also maybe Turbo-City in Orange perhaps as well (never delt with them myself,but been around a long time)

[TT440]

The hot rod was giving me 17 mpg with a 4.30 gear and 833 OD. This comes out to a 3.21 final drive.
Now that the 3.23 gears are out back, it has undoubtably gotten better. Unfortunately, I'll need to pull the OD out and stick the 18 spline box back in.
That means that the final drive will be 3.23 and the mileage should drop back to 17 or so.

I put the efficiency on two things.
1) the turbos are giving me a we bit of extra air at cruise RPM (may not be a real factor)
2) the turbo cam is ground with obscenely low overlap for high cylinder pressure

Is there any way you can slide an OD in that thing?

[icycleboy]

I checked the Rance website and they have all kinds of setups, Mopar, GM and Ford, but the price for a 440 combo starts at $3,800...ouch!

TT440, I´ve been reading many of your turbo posts, but unless I reduce the compression considerably (big $$$), I don´t see any inexpensive way of taking advantage of the inherent economy of turbos -I wish I´d known about your low-buck recipe when I started building this thing. As to the overdrive, I´m running a 727 and a super tall 2,91 gear, so I´m not sure a taller gear yet will do the trick in city traffic.

I will definitely contact BDS and see what they´ve got. I also seem to recall an article about F.I. on the cheap in Mopar Action this year. Time to dig into the vaults....

Jensen 32000, did you get a used Pro-Jection system, or was it new? Either way, what was the cost and labor installing it?

Finally, the MP six-pack cam I have currently is obviously not intended for mileage. Anyone now of a milder grind, which will still give me lots o´torque for towing and hauling?

[jensen32000]

Yes Ice boy, I bought it used for $800 cnd, but he still had the box it came in, video, all the instructions, a spare brain box, oxygen sensor, fuel pump etc. I had to buy an adaptor for the intake around $50, cause he had it on a chevy. The most difficult part of the installation is that you have to run a return fuel line to the gas tank. The Jensen came with a vapor separator from the factory so I used that line for my return. I installed it myself. I've had it on the car for 3 years and have no complaints. That particular system (502)is probably borderline for your car as mine is an 8.5 compression engine. You would be better with the 4 injector set up. It runs very smooth and consistant.

[dewme5]

knowing what i know now. and the dealings i have had with my holley 4di setup.

only 2 choices for me. electromotive tech II or speedpro.

[TT440]

swapping to an RV cam and 3.55 gears would probably improve your economy. The gears alone may do it.
We stuck the Tremec TKO in a 3.54 geared original 440+6 car. He was getting 17+ mpg on the freeway between 75-80 mph. Efficiency fell to 15 mpg around 65-70 mph. That six pack cam wanted a little more RPM to really be happy.

The gears would make the car much easier to drag around and should give better economy in the city. The highway mileage may improve a bit as well.

Talk to some of the cam grinders and tell 'em what you're looking for. Drop the rear gears and use an OD if you spend much time on the highway.

[dewme5]

ya know... on that. i had a built 727 and 3.23's in the rear. drove my car to a friends tranny shop about 250 miles away. got 14 mpg. (fuel injection was tuned for that setup) at the shop everything got swaped. i left with a T-56 and 4.56's on a spool. and on the trip back. i got 24mpg. wihtout tuning the fuel injection again. sure that would have made it even better, but it was 4 am. i didnt want to take the time to tune it again.

[turbododge]

Depending on how well your carb is setup, and how well you set up an EFI setup, you might be disappointed in the mileage improvement you get with the EFI.

On the TT340 with a Holley 650 spreadbore double pumper, we were able to get to 19 mpg in reasonable road cruising. The carb was tweaked very carefully for efficiency.

When we went to the old Accel EFI setup, we got up to about 21 mpg (one time at 22), but it is a bit deceiving, as the Accel had an override adjustment knob that you could adjust from the drivers seat. I could lean out the mixture until it started to lean miss (at a particular speed) and then go just rich enough to smooth out. This made for great highway economy, but you could not drive the car at the leaner setting at other than constant speed. When you had to stop, or got in traffic, you would turn the knob richer again. Mileage without messing with the knob was at about 19.5 mpg, or 3% better than the carb.

With our current wide band O2 Speedpro unit, we are still learning what works the best. There is no override knob on the Speedpro, so you can't optimize at cruise and quickly change back in traffic. We have been experimenting with timing and mixtures and have been finding that we can run much leaner with some odd timing settings. We are currently at about 19 mpg, and expect to get better as we are only at 14.6 to 1 ratio, and hope to get to 15 to 1, and still have good driveability. I would expect we should top 20 mpg.

An EFI has very little advantage over a good carb at cruise speed, and may even atomize a bit worse (no low pressure venturi). The aftermarket EFI systems also lack some of the features of factory systems, such as fuzzy logic fuel heat capacity compensation and "lean cruise" which automatically does what I used to do with the trim knob.

I would not consider installing EFI based on fuel economy. It is driveability, and ease of tuning, that make it worth the cost. On boosted engines it is almost a necessity, if you want to have very good driveability.

[goose]

I'm with Turbododge, going to an EFI setup won't make your mileage go up appreciably, assuming your carb is tuned well. Your cam and gears will have the single largest effect on your mileage. I'd go with an RV style cam, or possibly one step up and use the Rhoads lifters to reduce duration/lift at lower RPM's. Then put in some 3.55's, these will definitely help your city mileage as opposed to the 2.91's especially with the 4000 lb wagon. If you want to keep your highway mileage, put in an OD transmission. The whole conversion (cam/lifters/OD tranny/gears) should be about $2000.

Really, getting 14 on the highway isn't that bad, is it? If you think about it, a full-size sport-ute will only get about 14, and it already has EFI and overdrive! My '71 Ambassador wagon gets 19-20 on the highway, and it has a carb and no overdrive and a 5-liter V8 (stock AMC 304). Compare that to my dad's Explorer, which has a 5-speed manual and a 4-liter V6 and EFI... and is also a LOT smaller than my big ol' Ambassador (his Explorer is a 2-door). He only gets 19-20 on the highway!

[icycleboy]

I see your point, goose, that there may be some mpg in the cam and gears alone. The OD tranny, however, requires going with a manual conversion, and as you say, a 5-speed. Not cheap.
If I want to keep it auto, isn´t there a conversion to an A518 OD tranny possible?.
-Oops, I just checked Mopar Action and SMR Transmissions has it...

As far as the comparisons to SUVs, it hits home. My licence plate actually says "MY 69 SUV". My workmates were buying Blazers and Lexuses, and I told them I´d build twice the car for half the money. So far, on both, I´m at a third of the cost (including a brilliant, modern style A/C) and I feel like I have twice the car based on performance and utility -not to mention style. It would be even cooler to beat them on city fuel economy as well.

I still have to check with BDS in Whittier. Their website has some sa-weet looking setups -no prices though. Their bug-catcher would look great under the ´69 six-pack hood, but I imagine at the cost of 3-4K if Rance Injection on the East Coast is any indication. Anybody got experience with BDS syst

[goose]

Yup, I had meant the 518 AOD conversion. Hot Rod put one into a '70 440 GTX for one of their Power Tours a couple years back, and they said it worked great. "New" price for the 518 was $1600, plus $500 (choke!) for the adapter kit. Also you must have your driveshaft shortened and a new crossmember made up. If you can get a secondhand tranny can do your own fabrication work you could do all this for about $2500. If you're interested the magazine article was in the April 1996 issue of Hot Rod.

[icycleboy]

Jeez, none of this is cheap! At $2500, I´m in 5-speed territory. I think I´ll go with a 3:55 gear first (which I was going to do anyway) and take it from there. Rhoads lifters, maybe, a different cam, maybe, and see about the EFI as I research further.

I could go with the overdrive unit from a Ford 350 pick up and get 6 speeds and overdrive that way. I suppose another 150 lbs wont kill me at this point.

[Jims451]

It sure is fun playing with others peoples money
Before you start spending big $$$ on changing cams and gears and transmissions, spend a week or two tweeking the carb and ignition timming.
First get the step-up spring kit from Edelbrock. Replacing the step-up springs is simular to replacing power valves in a Holley, the softer spring you use the lower the vacuum can be before the metering rod pops up and rund the carb in the enrichment / power mode. You can also experiment with jetting and rods to fine tune the economy and power.
With the ignition, find the total mechanical advance for best MPH at the drag strip. I think this will be about 38 degrees +/- 2 degrees. Check initial advance at this point, You will want over 12-degrees initial, but less than 20 degrees initial timming.
Connect up the vacuum advance and adjust it for the most ignition advance the engine can take before pinging.
Run a 180 degree thermostat if you currently have a 160 degree one. You may try a 190 degree, but I don't like running the engine that hot.
Inflate all tires to max recommended pressure, grease all the bearings with synthetic bearing grease, get car aligned if it hasn't been done.
Use synthetic gear oil in the rear axle.

[dewme5]

and then put on f.i. an overdrive, and a new cam!!

just kidding. but after all the things that i have done to my car. when i put the overdrive transmission. my mileage honestly went up 10 miles per gallon. now i know not everybody is going to see the same changes. I put a double overdrive T-56 from a 1998 pointiac firehawk in it. with my set up i cant do much accelerating in 6th gear. but for just cruising down the highway.. about 1400 rpm doing 85. for what I wanted.. this was the right change. its not the cheapest switch either. but im just stating that overdrive is the way to go if you are concerned with mileage. im sure you would find anybody to argue it.!

[Mr. Trans Am]

I run an old anolg projection kit on my 440. It is a bit small at 700 cfm but hey it was on the car when i got it and the 400 gave up so I can't beat it money wise.
It starts and drives perfect. Wouldn't ever want a carb again after this. The return line is the hassle. Somebody ran rubber hose which I yanked out and ran hardline. Other than that it's a breeze. I hear the computer style new ones are much better. I did have a thremoquad one time that ran this good but the tinkering it required gets it blown away by this one. Just make sure you have a good ground for the pro jection. I'm pretty sure my car was dumped because of a mystery problem. I found this out 3 days after going cash for keys and spent the better part of 2 months sorting through it. Many calls to holley, new harnesses and stuff. Then one day bumped a ground wire that was tight but losse enough that it could be moved under pressure. Or maybe a running engine vibrating. Tightened it up and the car has ran like a top. No more here today gone tommorrow crap. So I would say go for it if you drive daily w/ it. It will start and run much better and is easily tuned. For a grand I think it is the best Budget system. SFI might be the bomb but I don't see pouring 4 grand in one for your application.

[icycleboy]

Hey Mr. Trans-Am, have you measured the mileage? Is this in your B- or E-body car? Is it an auto, and what gear are you running? It could give me some idea for comparison. l8r.

[Mr. Trans Am]

'70 Challenger worn out 440 3.23. 26 in. tall tires, lumpy cam, single plane, stock hi stall. Real mismatch. Don't have numbers. No speedo. Would esto 10-12 mixed driving.

[jensen32000]

I recall an article in an Mopar mag earlier this year (Mar April maybe) an it showed an older mid sixties C body I believe, that was retrofitted with fuel injection, that was put together with parts from present day cars, and I think they used a modified Holley carb for a throttle body, a GM brain box etc. I thought I bought the issue but I can't find it. Any one else happen to see it?

[dewme5]

yeah.. i saw it

[goose]

Mopar Action did something like that roughly a year ago, they went to the wrecking yard and pulled a bunch of parts and made a port injection setup for a 383 powered car. I think total cost was about $800 or so, including the cost of modifying the intake for injectors. I don't think the brain box was very easy to re-program however since it was a factory part.

[icycleboy]

Isn't there an aftermarket ECU unit available which could be made to work with this setup? I distinctly remember reading this article(obvilously not the details), and if one can make a solid setup for less than 1K, this could be the way to go. With $800 for a fresh 3:55 pumpkin, I'd still be ahead of the game. I still would like to see some more on those Rhoads lifters. Anyone experienced them?

[Mr. Trans Am]

noisey as hell, I would try the cranes, they are suppose to work as well w/o the noise. I think the rhodes helped my cause.

[turbododge]

Most of the aftermarket EFI boxes are based on GM TPI applications. If you use all the parts off of a 91/92 TPI 350 that is a MAP system (make sure it has not been converted to MAF), almost any of the popular aftermarket units will work. Accel, Speedpro, Holley, etc would be good, or you could get a chip burned for the GM box and use an adapter for the ignition.

Staying under $1000 would be easy if you burn a chip, but close if you buy an aftermarket controller.