440 or 451??

[kingjr]

I'm planning a rebuild this winter and I would love to build a 451 stroker. But I came across a 440ci rv motor at the junkyard. Did these have any good parts on them that would make a good street/strip motor? I plan on putting the original 383 aside and dropping in a new powerplant. I can get a 400ci motor for $200 and either buy the muscle motors kit or buy the stuff myself. 451boy, have you dynoed one of these strokers? I'd like to have around 500hp in a streetable/pump gas engine. Is this do-able? Any thoughts or ideas greatly appreciated, thanks. <><

[DartGT66]

Going to take our 451 to the dyno within a couple of months. It's a pump gas street engine, that will make over 500 hp, so it is doable. You can get that power out of a 440 too, no problem. You are not going to make it with very basic parts though. I prefer the '451' better, but do whichever you see more reasonable. The price difference is not big if you use same level parts. Maybe even aftermarket rods are a good idea with that kind of power level, so basically you only need the 440 crank and the 400 block for the job. Our list of parts for 500 hp is as follows; 400 block, 440 crank with mains turned down, Eagle 6.76/.990 rods, Ross '451' flat tops at zero deck, PJ gear drive, Cam Motion Custom roller cam, .69/.62" lift, Home ported Stage VI heads, M1 SP intake, 1000 cfm Demon carb, 2" primary Hooker Super Comps. This engine has been pretty reliable and run well for five years, never had probs with the short block. It will be interesting to see what the engine puts out, we assume a little over 500 hp before tuning and hopefully a little more after that. It has run 10.56/129.5 mph in a 3500 lbs car with 3.91 gears and 11.5/26/15 DOT tires.

[451boy]

I haven't had a 451 on the dyno but that will probably change this winter since the local engine shop just acquired a dyno. 500 hp out of a 451 shouldn't be any problem with the proper heads, cam and compression. The 451 is the same thing as a 440 except it is a little bit lighter, stiffer, stronger and smaller.

[kingjr]

Thanks for the info so far guys. I'm more interested in the 451 and have read all the posts concerning it. 451boy, thank you for the thread you have at Todds Publishing, it is extremely helpful, I printed it out for my engine builder to read! Will the 906 heads I have work w/porting, polishing and a good valve job? I was also hoping to use my existing headers (b block) but they are 1 3/4" or 1 7/8" primary w/3 1/2" collector. They feed into full 3" exhaust w/dynomax mufflers. I also want to use the edel rpm manifold and edel 750cfm, will they be adequate? Maybe down the road I'll go w/Indy sr heads or MP. I'm having trouble locating a 440 crank so I'll either buy a used motor like that rv for $400. Or I'll get the muscle motors kit which includes the crank. Other ideas, opinions please! Happy thanksgiving mopardudes! <><

[DartGT66]

I think you shouldn't invest a lot to the stock heads. You can get that kind of power out of them, but it's going to cost you, and you get it easier (or more power) out of the aftermarket heads. Edelbrock is coming out with their BB heads soon (next month is the last I have heard) and they may be one good choice. The RPM intake should be addecute and propably the headers too. I would choose a 850 Holley instead of the 750 Edelbrock.

[440 Jim]

Originally posted by DartGT66:
Going to take our 451 to the dyno within a couple of months. <snip> It will be interesting to see what the engine puts out, we assume a little over 500 hp before tuning and hopefully a little more after that. It has run 10.56/129.5 mph in a 3500 lbs car with 3.91 gears and 11.5/26/15 DOT tires.

I think you are being conservative. Using the Car and Driver equation:

HP at wheels = weight(MPH/234)^3

I calculate 593 hp at the wheels, so maybe 700 at the engine? Is this right?

[Streetwize]

Having built a 451, I think that unless the 40 or so pounds your going to save (as in an A-body) makes a dramatic difference you are better to put the money into the heads. one dollar in the heads is worth 2-3 in the short block on a street motor. A good 9.5:1 short block 440 can be built much less expensively than a b block 431 or 451, if you'rte gonna build a stroker build a 493-500 incher. IMO if you're not gaining close to cylinders worth of displacement increase, there's no point building a stroker.

You can buy a bare pair of cast iron stage V heads for 800 bucks and with a little bowl work you can get them to go 280I/220E with fantastic 200-400" lift numbers which will make the biggest difference in a street motor. You can get 906s or 452 to flow about the same but they'll need a bunch more work and porting $$$$ and your mid-lift #'s (and torque produced)won't be as good. You can buy a set of S/Rs for about $1800 ready to bolt on that'll flow about the same as bowl worked V's.

Street MoPars are all about bang for the buck, build with your head and not with your wallet.

Wize 1

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Streetwize

[AZPentastar]

Holy Cow! I've never seen a Stage V fan before! Have you actually run these heads? I have often wondered why no one seems to like them myself, and have seen them for as low as 750 a pair.

[JANDJJ]

tell me more about stage v heads. I have never seen a fan of those, are they any good for a bracket motor

[This message has been edited by JANDJJ (edited November 23, 2000).]

[Streetwize]

The Stage V heads got a bad reputation at first because they were expensive $1500 a pair and the raw out of the box flow numbers were not dramatically better than either the previous Stage IV's or ported 906's. At $800 a pair their a steal because by the time you do a valve job and put replacement guides into a set of 452's or 906's you'll be into close to that much anyway. The Stage V addresses two of the three major short-comings * of the B engine wedge, namely the lack of a short-side port radius and the cast-in dog-leg in the intake ports made for pushrod clearance. The Stage V port is wider just inside the intake port mating surface and the roof and floors of the ports are raised to allow good velocity. The pushrod dogleg limits/crimps the air before it can get even get into the port. The differences are subtle but nonetheless significant in terms of airflow. Additionally, the Stage IV and V's were and still are unfairly compared to the early 60's Stage I-III Max wedge heads with their huge (Race)ports.

While it is true that the Stage V ultimate airflow potential (Max flow at high valve lifts) is not significantly better than all out 452s and the like, their airflow in the mid-lifts is dramatically better than the 915/906/452 with equal porting. With drag style all-out race ports mid-lift flows are not too important because a drag motor is never operated/dynoed through part throttle and the useable powerband is always at or above the peak torque RPM. What is of little importance in a Drag-only motor is very important in a street or street-strip application, a street-strip motor should be built with an eye towards a wide powerband and broad torque, more like a road race type motor for the most satisfying performance. This is where short side radius and its positive effect on cylinder scavenging and reducing exhaust reversion during overlap is most important.

Anyway, yes, the flow numbers I cited are for the V's on my 70 Charger R/T which runs 12.70's @110 with only a 226/236 @ .050 cam and 3.54 gears. The heads have 2.19" intakes and 1.81" exhausts. With the old template ported 906's the car ran 13.30's @ 104-105 with no other changes to the car other that fattening up the jetting for the new heads. Originally, I was going to go with the Indy S/R's but the ported V's were less and they look stock which was important for a numbers matching 70 R/T 4 speed Dana.

OBTW, a fellow by the name of Dick Landy is also a fan of the V's, maybe some of you have heard of him.

*In case you were wondering, the third shortcoming is the wedge combustion chamber itself and its inherent combustion inefficiencies and valve shrouding, but like the song goes, "two out of three ain't bad!!"

Wize 1

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Streetwize

[71coronetcop]

wize 1
so do these stage V need any more port or bowl work to make them rock in a street car ?

[AZPentastar]

And, did you have yours ported by DLI? Who?

[Streetwize]

My Stage V heads were done by Marty Warden @ Warden Porting and Flow Testing Service(704)843-FLOW. Aside from opening the intakes for the 2.19 valves, he did a good multi-angle and some bowl clean-up as well as some intake runner "massaging" but nothing dramatic. Flow went from 236cfmI and 156E out of the box to 282I and 216E at .500 lift. Stock 906s and 452s go about 220I and 150E and ported go about 260I and 200-210E. The V's measured at only .300 lift will outflow stock 906's at .600 lift. It's not that 906's or 452's are that bad it's just so easy to get the V's to flow what you need with so little work (there already cut for 2.14I and 1.81E valves, for example)and as brand new heads they're hard to pass-up.

You can get 906's and 452's to go 270 or more but you'd need at least a level II ($900-1000)port job and the low-lift #'s won't get within 10-15cfm (i.e., give up about 15-25 hp of mid range)of the V's. Also the Stage V's can go about 295-300I and about 240E maxed out if I ever want to build a 575hp (or so) 500" motor.

Generally speaking, a good "rule of thumb" for a normally aspirated street motor is 4.1cfm/hp/cyl on the Intake and 3.44cfm/hp/cly on the exhaust which works out roughly to 255I and 215E to "easily" build a 500hp (depending on cam/compression, etc.)motor. You can overcam to make the same power with less flow (as with a Stock/Super Stock eliminator cheater cam, etc)but it'll be peaky, run generally rich (Stoich/BSFC) and have really poor low-end power.

There was a good article about Landy's Stage V's in the May 99 Car Craft, as I remember, their Stage V flow charts were pretty close to what mine flow.

Hope this helps.



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Streetwize

[DartGT66]

I kind of disagree with the cost thing. There isn't a dramatic cost difference between building a '451' or a 440. The only things that is different is the machining of the crank counterweights, and the fact that you are forced to use good quality parts. äBuild the 440 with same level parts and there isn't much difference. Clearance the block instead of turning down the counterweights, and the difference is even smaller. I have built and used both 440's and '451's and I prefer the '451'. However, if making a budget engine, then I would go with a 440. You can't compare a 4.15" RB stroker and a 3.75" B-stroker pricewise, the RB is much more expensive. How do the Stage V's low lift flow compare to that of Stage VI's

[Streetwize]

Yes, it's true that a 451 isn't too big a deal to build, cutting down the mains and clearancing the block is no big deal, However, in my experience all the "theoretical" advantages like better/stiffer block and more concentrated recipricating inertia simply does not show up either on the dyno or on the track. Not with a 6-6500RPM motor anyway. I've built dozens of both small and big blocks and know where the money is best spent and it is on AIRFLOW.

Short block power comes from good parts and precision machining and assembly. By the time you buy a 500-600 dollar set of 10:1 Ross or J&E slugs, bush your rods to .990 and cut your mains and built a 451, I'd take a decent $250 set of KBs, shorten/lighten the pins and put the extra money into the heads and for the same or less money I'll go quicker with my RB every time. For that matter, you can take a stock stroke 400 and put the leftover money into 11.5 pistons and and a solid roller cam and build an 8000RPM screamer and go a whole lot quicker still. The reason no-one does this is because you can build a 440 for the same price and RPM breaks other things like sprags and ring gears.

I've seen people drop over two grand on stroker crank kits and then not want to spend 75 bucks to square deck their block and wind up with a block .020" taller on one side than the other (which is about a half point of compression)Or they'll blow their wad on the short block and put backyard ported heads on the motor and wonder why they're running low 14's. Do it once, do it right and put your money where it does the most good.

By the way, Stage VI's are not my favorites mainly because the chambers are way too big and need to be milled to about 72ccs to make about the same effective compression as 79cc iron heads; also the raised intake port on RBs require spacers which almost always cause hood clearance problems on street B & E bodies. IMO, If you go aluminum, you're better off with the S/R's or the big Indys on a 500 incher.

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Streetwize

[DartGT66]

Never built a light weight internal 440 myself, but there sure is a difference how a '451' behaves compared to a TRW short block 440. Can't agree more with the head thing; wouldn't use the Stage VI's again. Now that we have them in the 451, they work just fine and with the RB intake no spacers. That was one of the reasons why I switched to the '451'. Ours have been milled .060 and are in the 76-77cc area; with a zero deck flat top it makes about 11:1, still good for pump gas with the quench and aluminum. Also have the 440-1's in a RB stroker; the ports are huge compared to the Stage VI's and I wouldn't use them on a street car under 500 cu in. Mine was below that and with a stock 1050 dominator the part throttle operation was really sluggish. However, a switch to a modified 'pro street' carb helped that considerably.

[Streetwize]

Yeah,

There's quite a few things you can do with a 'generic' TRW short block, There's quite a bit of mass you can take out of the pistons, pins and rods to narrow the advantage of a full blown (Ross,Eagle rods, etc)reciprocating assembly. Factory pistons have the pins offset to reduce cold, bottom-end noise, We just flip em' around a re-notched the eyebrows (f needed) and that really cuts down the friction (adds mid-range torque)l last re-built my 440 Charger in 1987 and it still winds like a small block. Using high buck parts is one way to do things, it's just not the only way.

Wize 1

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Streetwize

[kingjr]

Thanks for all the replies. We got a little off track but it's all good info! Wize 1, I appreciate your statement "build w/your mind, not w/your wallet!" Wish I could find a knowledgeable engine builder in my area w/that philosophy. Too many projects and not enough money! I've heard of the offset wring pin, we are actually building a 300hp 2 stroke motor that should run 9's in a full chassis sled and it has the same technology! I'm not against the RB block just considering factors like originality, well, I guess I can change the emblems! <><

[71coronetcop]

hey wize 1,
I nominate you for the job of chief TECH GUY, fast is always cool but fast for cheap is even cooler !! I just found an old HOT ROD book of mopar big block articles from the 70's when hot rod did mopar articles. LOL It was full of tips like wize 1 and alot more for cheap, like the 511 stroker 440 in a duster that they had to chain down and put weight in the trunk to keep it on the dyno !!

[71coronetcop]

hey wize 1,
I nominate you for the job of chief TECH GUY, fast is always cool but fast for cheap is even cooler !! I just found an old HOT ROD book of mopar big block articles from the 70's when hot rod did mopar articles. LOL It was full of tips like wize 1 and alot more for cheap, like the 511 stroker 440 in a duster that they had to chain down and put weight in the trunk to keep it on the dyno !!

[AZPentastar]

Of course, KB has hypereutectic 451 pistons as well. 319.00 at mancini's, the same as the 9.5 to 1 440 pistons.

[Fury Boy]

This is a little off topic, but didn't the 440 motor home engines have special heads and blocks with more cooling jackets in the block and heaads? I heard that only the motor home block and heads can be used together to use these advantages. Casting #s
anyone?

[kingjr]

Thanks Fury Boy, your definately not off the subject, it was one of my original questions. I'm going to look at that beast this week. I'll check to see what heads it has. Were there other differences w/these motors, anyone? <><

[Brian_wo]

Boy so much info so little memory(me)
First try building a 440 and dropping it in an Abody,talk about a tight fit,then throw a monkey wrnech in and put on a set of Indy heads and now try to make your headers fit,they don't fit without a lot of work.

451 costs a bunch more than a 440 to build?
answer: no it does not,my crank cost me $220 to get done instead of $75 if it had just been turned to be put back in the 440,thats the only extra cost and that could have been cut down by me clearancing the block instead of paying the machinest to cut the counter weights down.


No disrespect intended but anyone that would rather have a keith black piston over any quality forged piece must have never seen what happens to a KB when there is trouble,it doesn't just chip off a piece of the ring land it explodes in to many many little tiny pieces and depending on what RPM your at it takes out a lot,I have seen this first hand and before anyone cry's out about ring gap all that was done to this motor,my buddy that had this motor made sure everything was right,untill it blew it ran very well but all the money spent,then all the money lost was not worth the $200 savings for buying a brittle piston.
Now having said this I built a 450 with the KB quench dome pistons for my ramcharger,now I am regretting it because the ramcharger is leaving today and the motor will probably end up in my coronet and every time I smash the gas I will worry and if I have a piston failure nobody will ever bash them more than me

Originally posted by fast68plymouth:
we have had several engine failures with the KB pistons. in every thing from 2bbl circle track motors to supercharged small block street engines. on one of the circle track engines we tore down for a post season freshen up we found the rings were starting to lose some of the moly facing, and the top ring groove had alot of vertical wear, however there was no sign of the rings butting. i feel the design of the KB piston, and the material retains too much heat in the piston head. KB will tell you how strong the pistons are up to a certain temp, but after that, the stength goes down fast. oh sure, we have had some motors that have them that have had decent results, but basicaly we have never had a failure in a forged piston that we could attribute to being the fault of the piston, however we have had KB's seem to fail prematurely. IMO, you should look for some 915 heads(closed chamber) and run a forged reverse dome piston.

thats a quote from here and it's nothing more than others opinions but thats all we have.
http://216.218.201.10/ubb/Forum1/HTML/018144.html


BTW
my buddy that blew up the KB'd 440 just fired up his new Ross piston 440 with Indy heads and .680 ultradyne roller cam,wow does it sound good.


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It's not what you say----but how you say it

http://www.geocities.com/wo23dodge/

[Streetwize]

Any Street strip motor with KB Hype pistons needs at least another .001-.0015 clearance more than KB says, especially a stroker beacause the piston speed is higher relative to rpm. Also, these pistons are listed as stock replacements not race pieces. They're good if you loosen up the bores just a tad.
I've never lost one in the dozens I've built for myself and friends. Oh, yeah, I insist on jetting their carbs for them. Most problems I've seen w/KBs are due to either scuffing or improper jetting (lean) resulting in the failure. All the more reason to put your money in the heads.

Wize 1

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Streetwize

[Brian_wo]

Originally posted by Streetwize:
Any Street strip motor with KB Hype pistons needs at least another .001-.0015 clearance more than KB says, especially a stroker beacause the piston speed is higher relative to rpm. Also, these pistons are listed as stock replacements not race pieces. They're good if you loosen up the bores just a tad.
I've never lost one in the dozens I've built for myself and friends. Oh, yeah, I insist on jetting their carbs for them. Most problems I've seen w/KBs are due to either scuffing or improper jetting (lean) resulting in the failure. All the more reason to put your money in the heads.

Wize 1

boy if they need more clearance then KB says thats really sad on KB's part,if motors are coming apart because of this someone needs a boot to the head
The motor I spoke of was a 440 and to me $200 more for cheap piece of mind insurance is money well spent on forged pistons.

[DartGT66]

I think it's pretty much the same situation with the forged pistons. I guess the 2355 TRW's are about 100-150$ cheaper than the ROSS 451 pistons from Muscle motors. The TRWs weigh around 900 gram and the ROSS 530 gram. Going fast cheap doesn't necessarily mean to me to get the TRW pistons and lighten them significally. First you must know where it is safe to get material out of the TRW's. Next, how much can you take weight out of them? How much is it going to take time, and how much do you have to spend for the equipment? I think the ROSS's are a pretty good deal.

[Streetwize]

If a B motor had enough airflow to turn 7500-8000 rpm, the (freewheel)accelerative mass argument would have more merit. You put a torqueflight (hydraulic fluid pump)behind the motor and put it in a 3500 pound car and it doesn't show up. If you put it in a 2100 lb Arrow with a Lenco and you may get a tenth or two. As for TRWs, There's plenty of weight between the underside of the pistons and in lightening the pins to negate any significant Bobweight advantage. You can take a lot of mass out of the Rod balance pads, too. Again, Stock and Super Stock cars run OEM forged replacement pistons and they seem to run pretty good. Lightweight pistons and Ideal rod ratios, etc make for interesting bench race and Burger King parking lot conversations, But under load in a street car, with typical wet sump windage, you'll not see a (forgive me)knats a** of difference. The biggest difference light mass makes in a race motor is on the initial first gear launch with a Clutch or race converter pulling through the motor's torque peak to redline.

Let me put it another way, if you put $2200 into Bill Miller aluminum rods, J&E pistons (the Best there are!) and a knife edged crank, you wouldn't have the performance that $600 worth of head porting would give you.

A 7 qt Milodon pan w/ six quarts and windage tray will give you about as much effective useable power. Put your stock slosh pan under your lightweight Ross's and I'm afraid you'll miss the boat. Lightweight or not, you still have the same surface area for the oil to cling to. Yor rings are (by far)the biggest source of drag and frictional losses.

The only thing I have stated and continue to state is from a performance standpoint, dollar for dollar your money is best off in the heads.

Wize 1

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Streetwize

[DartGT66]

That is true, it's a commonly accepted fact that three dollars put in to the short block will not give as good power as one dollar put in to the heads. That's what I have personally experienced too, but it's absolutely not true that the light internals have no effect under 7500-8000 rpm. I have compared these engines in my car, a 440 TRW short block and a lighter piston '451' and there is a significant difference even in a pump gas street engine. As far as the SS piston thing goes, I believe you are wrong. I don't have the rule book with me, but I believe that in SS you only have to retain the stock 'blueprint' compression ratio but the piston is not a stock replacement thing. Or how do you explain that they mill the decks of the block up to 3/8" in a SS Hemi, use stock length rods and stock replacement pistons? The pistons I saw in the SS engine were really trick and had nothing to do with a stock piston. Stock engines are different, they are mandated by rules and have to be accepted stock replacement pistons that weigh the same as stockers etc. But even with for example a 440 six pack stock engine, if you check the blueprint specs and calculate the CR, what is the result?